NZ Police latest bright idea...

[Subaru ETA]

What do you guys think of the whole 4km/h tolerance this weekend?? money making scheme?? I THINK SO!!

[scott.mohekey]

Is it just for the weekend? Or is it on going?

[Subaru ETA]

at the moment it is just weekend, then they are going to see how successful it is and may make it on going.

how are they going to gauge how successful it is? by how much money they make?

[scott.mohekey]

Yeah, it depends what they define as success. What are they aiming to achieve? A reduction in accidents? You can't measure that over a weekend.

[mattnz]

Meh, 60 isn't the speed limit anyway.

[Magnus Andersen]

Most likely they will judge it upon the number of recorded serious accidents. It's a bloody crock.

[mattnz]

They probably won't tbh. There's not a lot of chance it will have any impact. I didn't even know about it, and it's not going to be enforced long enough to have any effect on the public mindset.

It's probably 50/50 that it'll be above or below average, and very unlikely that it will be significantly below average.

[confusis]

Meh just slow down - the speed limit is there for a reason. I sit on the speed limit everytime I drive and people sit up my arse and hoon past. Then they usually turn down the next road that I'm not taking. Waste of gas, waste of a life/lives if they f*ck it up.

Slow the f*** down, pay bl**dy attention and don't f*ckin kill yourselves or other people.

If they were out just to make money they wouldn't have warned us. Don't go whinging that 5-10 over the limit won't hurt anyone, my uncles and cousins (firefighters) have had to scrape morons like that off the road when it all turned to sh*t @ 60 in a 50 zone or 110 in a 100.

[Oblivion]

I think its more people driving like idiots and taking stupid risks rather than being 5-10kmh over the limit that causes accidents.
Factory speedos can be out by anywhere up to 10% which is why I thought fines were only given out for 110kmh+ out on the open road, there may also be some margin of error for police radar calibration..... guess none of it matters if they need to make some money :P

[fluffnik]

the speed limit is there for a reason

Yes, oppression.

Unrestricted Autobahnen are amongst the safest roads on the planet.

When Montana re-introduced speed limits deaths went UP, significantly.

[bradc]

Looks like I'll be going down to Wellington and I won't be changing my driving style. I will be sitting on 110kmh everywhere, around all corners signposted at 75kmh or above, and when coming up to people will pass them as quickly as I possibly can.

[VR4WGN]

Brad has spoken ya'all.. dont try keep up tho,you wont win lol..... hope your poppin in on your way back maby?

[bradc]

Dunno, still unsure if I'm going.

[confusis]

Yes, oppression.

Unrestricted Autobahnen are amongst the safest roads on the planet.

When Montana re-introduced speed limits deaths went UP, significantly.

Ahh Police oppression - a normal comment

AutoBahn is one of the safest roads, even at those speeds because drivers are required to get a special licence to drive on those roads! Normal drivers aren't given that sort of training so high speed is unsafe.

The Montana speed limit thing - I can see two sides to that. One is the drivers have to adapt to a sudden change in conditions so may not focus on the road, more on the speedo.

Secondly more inexperienced/slower drivers might pluck up the courage to drive these now limited roads and come into contact with people who still have not adapted to the new speed and conflict will have occured

[AlanDITD]

er what.....anyone could drivbe the autobahn last i heard

[bradc]

Indeed anyone can with a license. The tests for driving in general may be mote difficult though

[mattnz]

Yes, oppression.

Unrestricted Autobahnen are amongst the safest roads on the planet.

When Montana re-introduced speed limits deaths went UP, significantly.

Our roads aren't designed for that speed. Probably over 90% of SH1 is 2 lane, single carriageway. I don't think that's the conditions to remove speed limits. The autobahn is dual-carriageway, and banked for high speed.

[Subaru ETA]

how many can actually tell me that they are doing 100km/h? as said before, i know of cars that the speedo is 9km/h out from factory. So at 100km/h according to the speedo they are actually doing 109. thats why the tollerance is there.

a can you honestly tell me that on a straight piece of road it is safer to overtake at 100km/h then at 110? its safer to get back on your side of the road quickly

[bradc]

Matt, that is true but there are parts of sh1 that would be 120 or 130 in other countries

Dave, indeed it is much safer to get back to your own side of the road as quickly as possible

[Ryan]

People should be spending less time looking at their instruments (dangerous) and more time taking in their surroundings and driving conditions and adapting their driving style to suit.

[bradc]

I also would like to know how many of the deaths at Easter were actually due to speed, I'm guessing one or two. Most will be inattention, drinking, tiredness, or lack of skill

[mattnz]

Matt, that is true but there are parts of sh1 that would be 120 or 130 in other countries

Dave, indeed it is much safer to get back to your own side of the road as quickly as possible

And that is true, but there are also open parts of SH1 that would be 50 or 60 in other countries.

And I think it's more that excess speeds makes the crashes worse when they do happen, not that it is the root cause per se.

[fluffnik]

Ahh Police oppression - a normal comment

More social control, the police are victims too.



AutoBahn is one of the safest roads, even at those speeds because drivers are required to get a special licence to drive on those roads! Normal drivers aren't given that sort of training so high speed is unsafe.

No special licence, and lots of foreign traffic without German licences.

There's nothing special about the roads either, most are two lane, many lack a full width hard shoulder.

I've averaged over 130mph (210km/h) for whole tanks of fuel on several occasions...



The Montana speed limit thing - I can see two sides to that. One is the drivers have to adapt to a sudden change in conditions so may not focus on the road, more on the speedo.

Legislating for numerical values of speed is easy, not useful.

Speed limits are convenient, not just.



Secondly more inexperienced/slower drivers might pluck up the courage to drive these now limited roads and come into contact with people who still have not adapted to the new speed and conflict will have occured

Removing limits does not make everyone Vmax everywhere, it makes them think rather than just reading a number off a stick...

[fuel]

the speedos which are inaccurate are 90% of the time over-reading, ie you may be travelling at an indicated 100km/h but you are really doing 93km/h for example. Those 10% which are reading the other way are usually because the car has a wheel/tyre combo fitted that is significantly larger in rolling diameter than the standard wheels. I have 205/60 R15 on the VR-4 and it should have 195/60 R15 originally, even with the 5% increase in tyre size my speedo still reads 2% slower according to my GPS, and when you go passed the road side speed readout signs the actual speed is lower still.

I think the police's idea is that if everyone gets in the mind set to just slow down a bit that it could minimise the amount of accidents on the road. Who knows it may have an inverse effect that it will create alot more impatient drivers who will perform dangerous maneuvers to overtake a slower car therefore causing an accident. I guess we wont know until after the weekend is up and we get the results.

[fluffnik]

Our roads aren't designed for that speed. Probably over 90% of SH1 is 2 lane, single carriageway. I don't think that's the conditions to remove speed limits. The autobahn is dual-carriageway, and banked for high speed.

Here in Scotland, where the geography is not entirely dissimilar, there are many single carriageway roads with sufficient sightlines to make very high speeds not significantly risky...

[mattnz]

But arguably it is even more distracting to have speed limits constantly bouncing around depending on how much line of sight there is.

[fluffnik]

But arguably it is even more distracting to have speed limits constantly bouncing around depending on how much line of sight there is.

So you remove the limits and let people drive to the conditions. :)

[Zitchu]

Anyone see Campbell live last night? They had a poll to ask people whether this was for road safety or revenue gathering. 81% of the vote went to the latter.....
Stupidity will always be out there to asure deaths continue. A few km is not going to make ANY difference at all.

Also you know the cameras/radars will be plastered all over the countries passing lanes to maximise the money making.

[mattnz]

Lol, television polls mean pretty much nothing.


So you remove the limits and let people drive to the conditions. :)

That relies on peoples' judgement, something which is impaired in certain demographics (17-25yo males). I don't want a WRX driven by someone wearing a hood over a baseball cap coming the other way at 200km/h

[Subaru ETA]

i know for a fact that there are cars that have the speedos under reading...i have had to deal with the customer complaints

and as said above. there will be a speed camera on every passing lane up and down the country.

[Kenneth]

The thing that amuses me the most is the recent thing about these people overtaking over double yellows etc.

I thought for second there they had moved on from speed kills to "doing dumb stuff" kills, which is far more accurate.

The simple fact of the matter is that if everyone drove everywhere at 50kmph, there would be almost no road deaths. But, by that logic, we should probably all walk as that is by far safer.

[bradc]

I would love to be able to do a trip with my speedo covered and to have a cop or the minister of transport or whatever in the car, have it video taped and analysed later and see where I am slower than the speed limit because I can choose what I want to drive at, as well as see where I'm faster.

[djb160]

Seriously?! overtaking on double yellows???!!!! That's just f***ing nuts!

[fluffnik]

That relies on peoples' judgement, something which is impaired in certain demographics (17-25yo males). I don't want a WRX driven by someone wearing a hood over a baseball cap coming the other way at 200km/h

So:

Keep inexperienced drivers out of fast cars - insurance costs do this in the UK
Do people who restrict their vision for reasons of fashion for lack of care


Blunt instruments like speed limits don't help.

[fluffnik]

I would love to be able to do a trip with my speedo covered and to have a cop or the minister of transport or whatever in the car, have it video taped and analysed later and see where I am slower than the speed limit because I can choose what I want to drive at, as well as see where I'm faster.

This is exactly it:
Everyone who has negotiated a tight bend has demonstrated the ability to chose a suitable speed independent of any posted limit.

Speed limits are unnecessary and oppressive.

[mattnz]

So:

Keep inexperienced drivers out of fast cars - insurance costs do this in the UK
Do people who restrict their vision for reasons of fashion for lack of care


Blunt instruments like speed limits don't help.

It is not their inexperience, it is their general propensity for risk taking. When you combine that with high speed, there is a lot of potential for carnage. What exactly are you planning to restrict these people to? Unless they're all driving around in Charades, most cars will hit 180 anyway.

I really don't see a massive difference between removing speed limits and removing blood alcohol limits. People can handle it differently, does that mean we should just take it away and let everyone handle it themselves?

[fluffnik]

It is not their inexperience, it is their general propensity for risk taking. When you combine that with high speed, there is a lot of potential for carnage. What exactly are you planning to restrict these people to? Unless they're all driving around in Charades, most cars will hit 180 anyway.

In the UK insurance costs keep new drivers in <1.2l cars mostly, they'll need a loooooooong runup to get over 160km/h ("The Ton").



I really don't see a massive difference between removing speed limits and removing blood alcohol limits. People can handle it differently, does that mean we should just take it away and let everyone handle it themselves?

No, drinking impairs all abilities, adding speed just increases the amount of space required.

I drive a car that will do 100km/h -> 160km/h -> 0 in significantly less than 500m.

I know many roads where the sightlines are sufficient for ~250kph without significantly increasing the risk to anyone, driver included, conditions permitting.

I also know many other roads with the same posted limit where achieving the limit would be akin to suicide, or murder...

Arbitrary speed limits serve only to oppress.

[mattnz]

I would argue that the effects are roughly the same. Both reduce the amount of information one can process on a given length of road.

With alcohol it is because cognitive function is reduced, meaning less information is processed per unit time.

With excess speed it is because there is less time to process the information per unit distance.

It's not too bad in the average case, as there is not that much information to process, and much of it is done automatically, as it has been routinely encountered many times before. Plenty of speeding drivers get home safely, as do plenty of drunks.

It is in the novel case that the processing deficit becomes an issue. When a seldom encountered hazard appears, both the drunk driver and the speeding driver will react more poorly than a driver following the road rules. The drunk driver cannot process the information as quickly, and the speeding driver does not have the time to process it.

I am actually studying this at university, so I'm not just talking out my arse :)

[Ryan]

However, high speed driving is a skill that can (and is) able to be learned. Driving under the influence, as fluffnik says, impairs all abilities.

[bradc]

I think it depends exactly on the situation. Lets say a child walks out onto the road while you are driving towards them. At 120kmh there is a chance that you won't be able to swerve in time (assume there is no chance of stopping at all) whereas at 100kmh you may be able to swerve or slow down enough that they in turn have enough time to get out of the way.

However I do not beleive that standard narrow 1 lane each way non-divided roads should be increased to high speed limits. There are however plenty of roads that are perfectly capable of being driven at 120kmh or higher. Every single stretch of divided two lane motorway where it is illegal for pedestrians should be posted at 130kmh. Most other countries around the world with divided motorways have 120-130kmh speed limits on them, even places like america where the standard person is unable to differentiate between their sister, cousin, or a stranger. Have a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_by_country

The few other countries that have 100 or lower speed limits are backwards countries with few or no divided roads where cars are still a novelty, such as Vietnam or very small countries such as Macau.

[confusis]

Japan has 100kph as their max. So you're saying we should go above and beyond the max speed limit in the country our cars were designed in?

[bradc]

My VR-4 is more capable at stopping and turning than your pulsar.

In fact, I reckon I could get from 0-100-0 in the time it would take your pulsar to get from 100-0.

[confusis]

What the hell does that have to do with speed limits?

[bradc]

By the same token, what does your post have to do with anything?

VR-4's were only sold new in NZ, UK and Japan, but 8G's were sold new in a number of European countries including Germany. Lots of German 8G's have seen over 220kmh in regular service, and those have smaller brakes than a standard VR-4, let alone mine which has frankly scary deceleration rates.

[mattnz]

I think it depends exactly on the situation. Lets say a child walks out onto the road while you are driving towards them. At 120kmh there is a chance that you won't be able to swerve in time (assume there is no chance of stopping at all) whereas at 100kmh you may be able to swerve or slow down enough that they in turn have enough time to get out of the way.

However I do not beleive that standard narrow 1 lane each way non-divided roads should be increased to high speed limits. There are however plenty of roads that are perfectly capable of being driven at 120kmh or higher. Every single stretch of divided two lane motorway where it is illegal for pedestrians should be posted at 130kmh. Most other countries around the world with divided motorways have 120-130kmh speed limits on them, even places like america where the standard person is unable to differentiate between their sister, cousin, or a stranger. Have a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_by_country

The few other countries that have 100 or lower speed limits are backwards countries with few or no divided roads where cars are still a novelty, such as Vietnam or very small countries such as Macau.

Yes, I have no problem with increased speed limits on fenced off, limited-access, multilane, divided highways.

I have done a lot of driving in the USA and Canada, and it is quite safe. Although that wiki does state a maximum speed limit of 80mph, in practice that is only in the wops in Texas. Most sections of interstate are 70mph, 65 or 60 near built up areas, which is about 100-110.

But most NZ highway is through rural land, adjacent to farms with driveways and side streets coming off it on the same level. I can't see removing speed limits as viable for 98% of NZ roads.


Japan has 100kph as their max. So you're saying we should go above and beyond the max speed limit in the country our cars were designed in?

I think Japan's speed limit is more a reflection on their conditions. Mitsubishi limited the cars to 180kmh, so they obviously think they're good up to that at least.

[fluffnik]

With excess speed it is because there is less time to process the information per unit distance.

Yes, but excess speed and speed in excess of the limit are very different things.



It is in the novel case that the processing deficit becomes an issue. When a seldom encountered hazard appears, both the drunk driver and the speeding driver will react more poorly than a driver following the road rules. The drunk driver cannot process the information as quickly, and the speeding driver does not have the time to process it.

(UK case here, NZ might vary)

Indeed, yet information dense lanes between hedgerows with many sideroads and field entrances share a limit with low information load roads across open moorland with no cover.

In the first case driving at the limit is going to be risky, in the second the risk will remain lower at two or even three times the limit.

In many situations the appropriate speed will vary over time, often by the second - sudden showers, approaching traffic, etc... - so posting an appropriate limit is impossible, it will either give a false sense of security or impede good progress.



I am actually studying this at university, so I'm not just talking out my arse :)

Learn well and bring us more enlightened road safety policy in the future.

[bradc]

There are sections of non divided road where it is safe to do higher speeds of course. Witness SH27 north of Matamata as an example where it is mostly straight with wide roads and not too many people/cars/side roads.

[confusis]

By the same token, what does your post have to do with anything?

VR-4's were only sold new in NZ, UK and Japan, but 8G's were sold new in a number of European countries including Germany. Lots of German 8G's have seen over 220kmh in regular service, and those have smaller brakes than a standard VR-4, let alone mine which has frankly scary deceleration rates.

What I was saying is that the most developed technological country in the world has seen fit to impose similar limits to us, on much better roads.

I think around 80% of NZ's car fleet were designed and made in Japan.

Yeah VR4's may be for a wider market but not all models are like that.

On that note my car was also designed for use in europe.

[bradc]

Their roads are completely different. Most motorways are in a constant traffic jam and there are lots of small mountain roads where it isn't possible to do over 100kmh.

[Subaru ETA]

back to how they will determine it a success... if no one dies on the road this weekend, it will be a success in there eyes. forget the fact that the weather is rubbish and no one is actually going away!

[djb160]

It's a long weekend, it's raining(here anyways) - people are going to crash more than usual, it just happens.

Just an interjection here but in Pulsar vs VR4 - It's acceleration is irrelevant and I am just guessing but I'd think that a pulsar would outstop a vr4 from any speed.

[bradc]

If lots of people die this weekend the press release will be either:

No one listened and drove fast, speeding it still a problem

OR

The weather was bad which meant people were driving too fast and they need to go slower

If the deaths are low....well I think we're all fvcked forever. Welcome 80kmh everywhere :(

[bradc]

Dale, my VR-4 has brakes which can engage the ABS at 235kmh without actually pushing on the pedal very hard. It has extremely grippy 235mm Goodyear GSD3's on it and a very even braking force to all 4 wheels. Even with semi slicks on I was able to get the ABS to kick in lap after lap around Taupo. There is no way a 1986 pulsar with drums (at least at the rear) and 175 (I think) wide tyres which won't be any where near as good as my tyres will be able to stop in anything close to the distance my VR-4 can stop in.

[djb160]

fair enough but I was more meaning vr4's in general standard wheels/tyres/brakes.

[confusis]

And momentum - my car weighs a smidge under 1000kg with me and a full tank of gas - thats a lot lighter then a Legnum - a lot less work by the brakes/tyres has to be done to slow down :)

I think the police will just continue the clampdown after this weekend - not much we can do is there?

[djb160]

Bet they wont. Imagine having to pull over every car you clock going 4kmph. You ticket one person get in the car and have to immediately pull over the next damn driver. Given a few months of that I think they'll start being really selective about when and who they use the lazors on.

[bradc]

My brakes and tyres can do a lot more work though.

[scott.mohekey]

I've noticed while driving around this weekend, that most people are sticking to 50. Certainly far more than would normally do that speed.

[Ryan]

Could be worse - could be double demerits like they have in Australia over public holidays. :stars:

[Rossco Type-S]

I've noticed while driving around this weekend, that most people are sticking to 50. Certainly far more than would normally do that speed.

I wish ppl in Dunedin ever reached 50!!! On a good clear day they might hit 40

[Zitchu]

Ditto on the above. God everybody I've caught up to on open roads over the weekend was doing at least 10km slower than the limit. ANNOYING.

[mattnz]

It's a limit, not a target :happy:

[Ryan]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10650315

"With less than 12 hours remaining in the Queen's Birthday Holiday weekend and just one recorded road death so far - the lowest toll in more than 50 years - police are trumpeting their zero tolerance approach to speeding as a factor.

Despite foul weather and driving conditions, the weekend has also seen a drop in the overall number of crashes, from 341 last year to 292, and the seriousness of those crashes.

Alcohol is believed to be a factor in the sole death so far, mother-of-three Aroha Ormsby, 28, who was killed when the car she was a passenger in crashed onto the beach at Tokomaru Bay, 91km north of Gisborne, around 5.30am on Sunday."

[mattnz]

They do say that they will do further analysis before considering introducing it permanently though.

As you said earlier, an easy way to reduce the road toll would be to reduce it to 50km/h. We could even outlaw cars. But we have to come to a point where we are willing to trade off productivity for risk.

[Ryan]

As you said earlier, an easy way to reduce the road toll would be to reduce it to 50km/h.

Think you may have me mistaken for someone else there Matt, I don't think I was the one who posted that :)

[mattnz]

Sorry, yu were not indeed, it was Kenneth :P

[Subaru ETA]

only 1 death on the road...there were no cars on the bloody road anyway!!

i work for a company that does roadside assistance for most manufactures. while i was aduiting the amount of calls and diagnoses etc i found that at 2:30 we had taken roughly 200 calls for the day. i then compared this to easter this year and queens birthday last year - it was about 450 - 500 calls in the same period.

[Subaru ETA]

o yeah, my workmates 64yo wife got a $30 fine today for doing 56km/h...

[fuel]

as far as the police are concerned it was a good result. that bad weather could have gone both ways either reducing the number of people traveling away but it could have also caused more accidents or even deaths.

I didn't go away let alone get on the roads this weekend so am unsure what the traffic was really like.

[confusis]

Traffic was much lighter than usual - had to commute friday and saturday.