View Full Version : Rally or Circuit Debate: This should end it!
This is what its all about, total heroic behaviour!
http://jalopnik.com/5497042/how-a-500-craigslist-car-beat-400k-rally-racers
psbarham
06-06-2010, 06:18 PM
cool, top man, hats off to him for having the balls to have a go, and for beating big budget stuff /lol
Kieran
06-06-2010, 06:37 PM
Brilliant, brilliant read. Wouldn't get the F(airy) 1 drivers doing those kind of heroics would we?! :D
stuartturbo
06-06-2010, 09:05 PM
Read that before extreme effort performed
Whatever !!!
Ah RWD - I rest my case :)
miller
07-06-2010, 12:56 PM
Whatever !!!
Ah RWD - I rest my case :)
/catfight teenager 'whatever''
:leer: :thumbsup:
Whatever !!!
Ah RWD - I rest my case :)
It was never a rwd vs awd debate. It was more along the lines of genuine hero's versus fair weather shandy drinking fairys.
Its still the case to this day that a decent Mk2 will keep up with the big boys so that was never in doubt.
Face it Keith, you need to come out for a spin in the forrest!
No Ta Gary - I've heard about you and Micky Miller inviting men into the woods !!!
You seemed more than happy when we dropped you off from there at 5am in Germany!
psbarham
07-06-2010, 09:53 PM
20 years ago the debate was easier when racing drivers were racing drivers, take the late great Jim Clarke for example, if there was no f1 he would go and win rallys or touring car races or endurance sports car races. wheras you try getting an F1 driver into anything that his sponsors don't have their names all over, it just ain't gonna happen.
Don't get me wrong I have the utmost respect for the effort and skill f1 drivers have, but for sheer big balls and pushing the limit with out truly knowing wha'ts round the next bend then Rally drivers have it all sewn up
Kimmo_
08-06-2010, 05:09 AM
Wow.. thats.. AMAZING :D
-k-
miller
09-06-2010, 01:43 PM
plus would the stiff shirts at F1 allow these!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40EcPiwcap8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiaB2_nf1h4&feature=related
Video 2 im told is quite similar soundtrack when Hearth is passenger lapping......
miller
09-06-2010, 04:08 PM
Now this is the video that tells a THOUSAND stories on this debate in question
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFkbYacqrZM&feature=related
Now this is the video that tells a THOUSAND stories on this debate in question
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFkbYacqrZM&feature=related
"Oh but rally drivers need someone to tell them where they're going, need someone to hold their hand..."
(quoted from Keith's Yeehaw easter weekend)
Enough said i think!
plus would the stiff shirts at F1 allow these!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40EcPiwcap8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiaB2_nf1h4&feature=related
Video 2 im told is quite similar soundtrack when Hearth is passenger lapping......
Hah Hah !
She was only frightened in the 2nd clip cos he was going fast on tarmac :)
Anyway proper cars don't take passengers when racing !
What is it with you Celts and your terrible spelling ?
"Oh but rally drivers need someone to tell them where they're going, need someone to hold their hand..."
(quoted from Keith's Yeehaw easter weekend)
Enough said i think!
Good arguement from that Keith geezer !
bradc
09-06-2010, 07:36 PM
So the point of the original subject line and the link is to show that in rallying any pile of crap car can do ok, whereas on a real race track you have to have a competitive car as the competition is much harder.
psbarham
09-06-2010, 07:44 PM
Anyway proper cars don't take passengers when racing !
cough cough,sports prototypes, cough cough
all endurance racer are designed to carry passengers, as they used to carry mechanics originally.
and they are more proper race cars than the formula stuff :smug:
psbarham
09-06-2010, 07:50 PM
Now this is the video that tells a THOUSAND stories on this debate in question
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFkbYacqrZM&feature=related
But Derek bell is an endurance driver, 4 times le-mans winner i think, a sport where smoothness is key to success, Not a driver who would go well on the dirt
Just checked, it was 5 times a winner at le-mans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Bell_%28auto_racer%29
Derek Bell only had 9 starts in F1 - hardly a great example of the formula !
Great driver though, none the less.
miller
09-06-2010, 10:51 PM
Derek Bell only had 9 starts in F1 - hardly a great example of the formula !
Great driver though, none the less.
With the exception of Raikonnen how many other videos can you find of F1 drivers trying rallying?
As with any of these discussions there is always a right and wrong to each side.
So all those for Rallying are right and the rest are wrong :jester: :jester: :jester:
psbarham
10-06-2010, 06:43 AM
With the exception of Raikonnen how many other videos can you find of F1 drivers trying rallying?
i have to go back to the 60's to think of any, but as i've stated before those boys were racing drivers not f1 drivers.
With the exception of Raikonnen how many other videos can you find of F1 drivers trying rallying?
As with any of these discussions there is always a right and wrong to each side.
So all those for Rallying are right and the rest are wrong :jester: :jester: :jester:
Why would a current F1 driver want to try rallying - why eat spam when you can have fillet steak ??? :)
You're wronger and I'm righter :flamed:
miller
10-06-2010, 08:46 AM
ha ha ha I love it!!
nah im righterer than you Heath!
Now let's be technically correct you're the wrongerest !
So the point of the original subject line and the link is to show that in rallying any pile of crap car can do ok, whereas on a real race track you have to have a competitive car as the competition is much harder.
Hit the nail on the head here brad thanks for agreeing with rallying being for real men. Your saying its down to the car and not the driver then? The point is you can have a genuine hero in a car that shouldnt be anywhere near as competitive as the big boys. BUT, the beauty of rallying is that it is mixed surface, you dont know whats round the next bend, things can happen, and that 'pile of crap' as you put it can actualy prove benifitial. Brad why don't you track your car if what your saying is true?
So, get a puncture in F1, thats you out and £100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000 is down the drain.
Get a puncture in rallying, you change it. Get another one, you change it, get another 1 and you just carry on regardless.
There are thousands of examples of this, where its about finishing and you will do anything you can to do so, rather than just thowing in the towel. Which is why all rally drivers, and co drivers for that matter, have to mechanically know their car intricately.
bradc
10-06-2010, 10:34 AM
I've taken my car around Pukekohe and Taupo multiple times.
My point was more along the lines of that in circuit racing you need to be close to perfect, driver, car, a bit of luck, and everything has to be at 95% at the minimum to be remotely close to competitive.
In Rallying you can have a major drama or a much slower car and things can still 'work out'. The lack of passing and multiple cars on the same stretch of the road is another reason I don't really like rallying!
I've taken my car around Pukekohe and Taupo multiple times.
My point was more along the lines of that in circuit racing you need to be close to perfect, driver, car, a bit of luck, and everything has to be at 95% at the minimum to be remotely close to competitive.
In Rallying you can have a major drama or a much slower car and things can still 'work out'. The lack of passing and multiple cars on the same stretch of the road is another reason I don't really like rallying!
Lack of passing? Obviously you've never been or seen it properly then. Overtaking does happen, either due to moments, or to poor seeding. But try passing someone, far more dificult than it is on a circuit, but it is done!
miller
10-06-2010, 11:34 AM
There is skill in circuit racing but nowhere near the amount of skill and balls required to compete in rallying. Circuits are all dumbed down with escape lanes, large run off areas and armco to keep you in one space. I couldnt imagine paying the F1 fees to watch roundy roundy racing. A circuit driver has to be skillfull in repetetivness (read boring) whereas a Rally driver has to have the utmost skills for all eventualities....that includes mechanics. The processes a rally drivers brain needs to acheive i imagine is 50times what a circuit driver needs to experience.
Classic example....le mans is on right now.....try watch 10mins of that on TV and dont tell me thats not repetetive.
Now go out rallying and competetiveness is directly related to your skill as a driver to push that car from A to B as quick as possible keeping the car, your co driver and you in one piece. The real sense of speed and power in a car is so much more tangible to the fans in rallying than it is in Circuit racing. With no armco to keep you on the road only skill and large cahones. Now thats a true testament of motor sport, motor mechanics and vehicle dynamics.
The elitist image of F1 will never depart. Rallying is sooooo much a better all round motorsport than F1 will ever be. Just becasue of the multi million pound scene from F1 means it gets televised in mainstream channels. Hence all the arm chair circuit fans.
Go stand in the rain and mud and experience a mans sport at a proper rally in Wales/Ireland then come back to me with 'circuit driving is better' or 'circuit drivers are more skilled' or 'circuit driving is more exciting'
>|
Well said there Mike, I had the same debate in the office the other day with someone when i was told 'why go and watch rallying? You just see a car going round 1 corner, whats the point?'
The point is your part of it. Yes its dangerous (and thanks to the wildness of GpB it wont ever be as it was), but having to walk up a live stage to where you want to be diving out of the way of oncoming cars and shielding yourself from the barrage of gravel coming your way is part of the fun.
Spectating is seen as a negative thing in rallying from a competitive point of view, as its dangerous, people stand in stupid places trying to get photos. But when you have an off they are a invaluable resource. What other motorsport can a spectator have a positive influence on someones event result by helping them back on track? Its a community thing and something which I love. Did you get the same feeling of satifaction watching michael the shoe maker win events? I somewhat doubt it!
PaddyB
10-06-2010, 11:54 AM
Not really a fan of F1.
Not kept up with rallying either but I did use to love the old Group B stuff in the 80's. 2 blokes sat in a car that weighed 800kg with 450+bhp on tap going sideways thru forests at speed - & sadly too often going sideways thru trees at speed (which is why it got banned).
If I ever could afford it & find one - I'd buy a 6R4; 0-60 in under 3s on dirt /rally
I do think Mickey Miller doth under estimate the skill and reaction levels of a F1 driver a tad !
Lets put it this way round - F1 pays much higher salaries and attracts far more and better totty - facts !
So if these real men of rallying are soo good how come none of them have made it into F1 ???
They are either:
a) Stoopid !
b) Rubbish !
c) Not a real man (money, fame and totty every time !!!)
I rest my case me lord :)
I've seen a fair chunk of circuit racing and been to rally events - even done a days marshalling. I would always say circuit racing is more exciting to watch because more competitive action happens directly in front of you. You have to wait for a blue moon to see an overtake in rallying and yes its good if/when it happens.
Anyway who wants to watch a dominant frenchie when we have two fine Brits to watch in F1 ???
elnevio
10-06-2010, 12:51 PM
I like both.
And I don't think anybody can actually meaningfully compare them to each other, as they are completely different animals, sharing very little indeed other than it's racing, in cars. Which I suspect is the biggest problem in this thread!
Although, having said that - there really should be more rally-cross... /rally
I agree with you Nev - completely different really.
But those rally boys started it and its good to have a daft debate once in a while - now where are those anorak wearing celts with their smart @r$e replies ??? :)
miller
10-06-2010, 01:51 PM
elitist sport though F1....real nose in the air attitute that just simply stinks.
to become an F1 driver in reality you have to start out loaded. Simples.
Plus if your a real man you will see through all that totty as being nothing but airhead bimbos out for your money. Now if you dont then who is the stupid one!
pahhhhhhhhhhhh
rally rally rally rally rally rally rally
Exactly! not wanting to sound a bit too pinko-commi-esque here but it is a far more accessable sport. Now dont get me wrong, its not cheap by any stretch of the imagination but at the grass routes level it is.
Why have they never made it into F1 in recent times? Did the frenchie who has killed wrc not have a go and have a test in one of those glorified go-karts and do pretty well?
The driving style is totaly differnt (which unfortunately is why sebastian is currently so good on tar), your confident of your grip level so you can have that straight line. But what if its not there mid corner? Far best to be unsettled, dealing with it as you go.
1 famous statement though from another frenchie, this time female: Not a single driver in the GpB championships can drive the car to its full potential. Thats not due to one being better than the other, but they exceeded the realms for a loose surface.
TBH the same is true of F1. Its meant to be pinacle motorsport. so why not just say, have all the budget you want and build whatever you can? Other than the fact noone could drive them, it would be a very dull championship. So what have they done, made it more accessable... ethos of the forest dwellers i believe?
Anyway. Rallying, you win no money. You may get a trophy and if you win a championship you sometimes get some cash and a car or a drive in a really good car. Doesnt even touch what youve spent on the season though. So its done for the love of it, not for pecuniary reasons. As mike said, how the other half live!
elitist sport though F1....real nose in the air attitute that just simply stinks.
to become an F1 driver in reality you have to start out loaded. Simples.
Plus if your a real man you will see through all that totty as being nothing but airhead bimbos out for your money. Now if you dont then who is the stupid one!
pahhhhhhhhhhhh
rally rally rally rally rally rally rally
I know you forest dwellers can be a bit dim some times, but Mike you don't have to set up home with the first girl you kiss - its not the law :thumbsup:
As Moss once said part of the reason he loved motorsport was for the girls - he use to wave to the pretty girls in the crowd, perhaps that's why he was never a champion but had a great time trying /Steeringw
miller
10-06-2010, 02:27 PM
/woot
Kieran
10-06-2010, 04:51 PM
I've pushed my car around Pukekohe and Taupo multiple times so that I can claim 422532559mpg.
My point was more along the lines of that in circuit racing you need to be close to feeling Bernie Ecclestone's schlong in your butt to be remotely close to competitive.
In Rallying you can have a major drama or a much slower car and things can still 'work out' if you're enough of a hero. The lack goat carrying station wagons and the fact that you can't stop halfway and 'Surprise' any passing sheep is another reason I don't really like rallying!
EFA ;)
miller
10-06-2010, 05:05 PM
PMSL!
Bernies shlong indeed!!!
bradc
10-06-2010, 08:09 PM
I wasn't saying I liked F1 either, in fact I don't really like F1 at all!
william
10-06-2010, 11:38 PM
I agree with Elnevio, you are comparing apples with pears. I like all motor sport, have attended FI, endurance races, rallies, drag racing, motocross etc, all good! I like F1 most for various reasons, so each to his own! If you think driving a F1 car is easy you have no idea what you are talking about!
As far as being men, all car racers are whooses when compared with motor cycle racers!
psbarham
11-06-2010, 06:49 AM
As far as being men, all car racers are whooses when compared with motor cycle racers!
/bestpostever
Just ask anyone who saw Mick Doohan come back with a broken leg to try and win the championship in 1983, Proper hero stuff
william
11-06-2010, 07:08 AM
Yep, or Barry Sheene getting back on a bike not long after fracturing multiple bones in a 175 mph crash at Daytona. He knew that Suzuki was probably going to seize on the banking but kept the throttle wide open until the inevitable happened! They do not come much braver than that.
When Kenny Roberts came over to the UK as a road racing rookie as a member of the American team for the Anglo-American match races in the mid seventies (remember those races?) he was leading his first ever race in the wet on a very snappy TZ700. I think it was Mick Grant who was following him when he crashed and said afterwards he knew this guy was going to be something because he noticed he had the clutch lever pulled in and was blipping the thottle to keep the motor running while sliding down the track!
miller
11-06-2010, 09:10 AM
I agree with motor cycles and especially Road Racing.
Joey Dunlop.
Enough said!
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