is this a good buy?

[dickytim]

I am looking for a car for Stacey, we looked at a VR4 Galant today but it was overpriced and a bit rough. We decided that she doesn't need a VR4 but just a well presented galant with low km's.

I like this one but the dealer wasn't open today so we couldn't drive it or check the interior etc.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Cars/Mitsubishi/Galant/auction-302271576.htm

Anyone have any thoughts?

[Gly]

id be wary of anything GDI

can be as costly as a vr4 to maintain,
when parts on the engines on these thing go its big big money

and you still have to use the good gas for them to run as best as it can,
91 will be a big NO NO, 95 at a pinch

still an auto, so will still have the same trans issues mitsis have (weak when not looked after)


personally i'd look for a NZ new NON GDI 4g motored one or a shoc V6


any reason for not getting a leggy??

[dickytim]

Stacey likes the galant better, we have a big horn for moving big items and a horse float so no worries there, also the Galant feels smaller when driving.

My wish list for her car is Galant, facelift and Auto, oh and around $5,000

Obvious things like good condition and lower km's

[Gly]

heres my pick of non turbo Gs on trademe

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Cars/Mitsubishi/auction-278705948.htm

i just think the V6 is a better motor,
less problems, will be ok on 91 if you had to (being nz new)

[andyleaves]

Looks like the better of the two.

[fuel]

Yes I would strongly recommend AGAINST the 2.4 GDI. They have most the issues of the 1.8 GDI in addition to a serious oil burning problem which can develop anywhere above 100,000kms.

A word of advice from me, don't consider low kms as a top priority, you tend to pay a premium for a lower kms car and in many cases it doesn't turn out to be the most reliable anyway as it could have had a neglecting previous owner. I would pick out a car which has had a string of good owners with a service history, regardless of kms. I've picked up many higher kms cars which have only had a handful of owners with a stack of receipts and has proven to go the distance. The bonus is when it comes time to sell the car, because you didn't pay the low kms premium to begin with and you're selling it as a moderate to high kms car just as you bought it you don't stand to lose so much in depreciation.

I would thoroughly recommend an NZ-new model Galant of that shape, I had a 2000 model 2.0 4cyl 5 speed manual which I sold for $4600, but auto models tend to be around the same price. They're very simple and basic and tend to have a more bland interior and lack the exterior goodies of an import such as nice bumpers and sideskirts, but there's just less to go wrong with them.

If you are hell bent on that 2.4 GDI at Auto Auctioneers in Hamilton (note they are NOT a car yard so the vehicle will not have a warranty of any kind), I can go check it out on your behalf.

The other thing is, and I know this isn't probably the best site to be saying this on, but is one of the pre-requisites that it has to be a Mitsubishi? I can recommend plenty of other alternatives which would be in your budget, many of which would stack up higher than a Galant of that era.

I am a RMVT myself so if you need any advice or wish for me to keep an eye out with my channels don't hesitate to contact me.

Cheers,
Phil

[dickytim]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for your post, and I appreciate what you have said, the KM's are important to me but the condition is more important. We were in Hamilton today looking at a VR4 but it was a bit rough and over priced for what it was.

We did have a look on the outside of the Viento at Auto Auctioneers but they were closed today.

We are not hung up on the Galant we will consider a primera or similar sized car as well, it just has to be the right car.

Oh and thank you for the info about them not having to offer warrantees, I was not aware of that.

[fuel]

Which VR-4 were you looking at out of curiousity? Not sure if you've seen but I have a '96 tiptronic Legnum VR-4 up on $1res auction, currently sitting at less than $1000 and it closes tomorrow night :S

Basically Auto Auctioneers as the title suggests is an Auction or Tender yard, as they themselves aren't the actual owners of the vehicles, and they are auctioning off the vehicles the Consumers Guarantees Act doesn't apply.

[bradc]

Vote for an NZ new Galant too, or a V6 Legnum.

[Subaru ETA]

yeah i would go v6 or nz new 2L sohc

[fuel]

Oh yeah go for an SEi if going NZ-new 4cyl as the GLXi doesn't have ABS brakes as standard (and isn't a commonly chosen option). I think the '01+ GLS has ABS though, as do all the VR and V6-24 models.

[djb160]

There are way better sedans out there for that sort of money. Is she sticking to Galants for any reason or would you consider other cars?

[bradc]

A VR-4 is a great car, as is the V6, but the other models can be a bit crap.

But what are the better options?

[djb160]

depends on what the requirements are(2door, 4 door, sedans only, wagons, etc etc). It'll be hard to match those low kms though.

Not competing against a VR4, only the other models

[dickytim]

The only other options for similar money are primera's really, but they are a bit smaller inside.

We are not settled on the type of car, but is must be a sedan (4 door with a boot)

[djb160]

??? http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Cars/Honda/Accord/auction-299687934.htm

[fuel]

Plenty of other options, not just in the Jap camp either.

My suggestions would be the Accord or Torneo as mentioned above, Subaru Legacy B4 non turbo (yes, they exist), Peugeot 406, Volvo 850 and S70, Mazda Capella or 626, VW Passat and Audi A4 to name a few.

[djb160]

I just seriously doubt finding anything with low low kms and quite frankly I'm highly suspicious of the kms on that Galant(kms like that would put it close to the 10K mark down here)

[fuel]

yes a 12 year old car with just 57k kms on the clock is a little suspicious, but you never know it could have been owned by someone in Japan who only used it on weekends and came in to the country with super low kms, and then has had a light use owner here as well. I don't think that shape will ever be a 10k car, considering cars like the Mazda 6 which is easily twice the car of the 2.4 GDI Galant is getting awfully close to the $10k mark these days.

[bradc]

The 97 to 02 or there abouts 626 is a pile of crap. Reliable sure, but awful to drive and awful in every other way. Euro cars will be fairly expensive to repair so surely it has to be jap only

[djb160]

I wasn't so suspicious of the actual kms more the price of a car associated with those low kms. Even a poo GDi would be quite expensive noramally with low kms. So I'm more wondering if there's something else wrong with it.

[fuel]

In my opinion, given that that particular vehicle is not on a yard, and it technically falls under a private sale, that $6000 is about right for a '98 model Galant with that amount of kms. The NZ-new models of that era with your average amount of kms are usually no more than $4000-5000.

[fuel]

The 97 to 02 or there abouts 626 is a pile of crap. Reliable sure, but awful to drive and awful in every other way. Euro cars will be fairly expensive to repair so surely it has to be jap only

Excluding the VR-4, that shape 626 is incredibly similar to the 8th gen Galant. Both are built apon their previous models chassis, both are rather boring to drive but get the job done with a good enough ride quality, both come with a wide range of engines varying from 1.8L 4cyls to 2.5L V6s, both come either 2WD or 4WD, the 626 comes in 5 door hatch which is lacking in the 8G Galant range, they're both going to be about as reliable as each other. They're both as popular sellers as each other, and often the 626 comes better equipped than the NZ-new 8G Galant counterpart.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the Euro cars either, heck if they're considering a GDI Galant or any Mitsubishi for that matter reliability obviously isn't high up on their priority list.

One inexpensive euro car that springs to mind is the Peugeot 406 sedan. They come in either 2.0 DOHC 4cyl or 3.0 DOHC V6, both either auto or manual. They have to be one of the best handling mid-sized sedans from that era, they were released the same time as the 8G Galant and had a very similar lifespan, and were an incredibly popular seller and are reasonably reliable. Yes they can have their quirks but usually it's no worse than some of the issues that arise in any Mitsubishis.

Another is the Volvo 850 which later on became the S70. When introduced in 1992 it was just miles ahead of their competition. They were a bit of an engineering feat and more or less set the bench mark for car safety at the time. The 850 was the first car in 1995 to have driver and passenger air bags along with side torso air bags in the seats - this is a feature that the Galants didn't even have in 2006 when they were discontinued.

I'm a Mitsubishi fan just like everyone else here but I do have a broad interest in cars of all makes and models and I hope that I can offer reasonably un-biased advice, and can say I have a perception for particular model Mitsubishis which isn't blinded by my love for Mitsubishis.

[Johny]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=301814456

[Ryan]

Doesn't the 406 also come in a HDi variant? My mom has a 2002 Citroën Xsara 2.0HDi which share the same engine (both marques belong to PSA). Great car - very comfortable and excellent range.

I do like the Volvo S70 too but there don't seem to be any manuals in New Zealand (it was a car I was considering when my white VR-4 was stolen). The automatic transmissions are ridiculously expensive to repair - when I had my white VR-4's AT rebuilt, I asked if there were any builds in the shop more expensive than mine, I just about fell over when he told me how much the Volvo rebuild cost.

[fuel]

Believe it or not Brad, but some people have different criteria when looking for a car that you would. They would rate things like safety, practicality, child seat fixing availability, fuel economy, cost of servicing, even the warranty period above things like performance, handling, and even looks.

The VR-4 certainly isn't a bad car at all, it really is a good balance of performance and practicality but their excessive fuel consumption and increased cost of servicing almost instantly excludes them from being a viable daily driver vehicle. And the plain Jane Galant just doesn't have enough good points in the above important criteria to make it a stand out option above all its competition.

I know Top Gear isn't to be taken by gospel but I quite agree with the points Jon Bentley has to say about the 8G Galant in this segment - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0f_jfCSAc

This is an interesting watch too,
part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q2htEzjx8E
part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP7Hw9oTNso

[fuel]

Doesn't the 406 also come in a HDi variant? My mom has a 2002 Citroën Xsara 2.0HDi which share the same engine (both marques belong to PSA). Great car - very comfortable and excellent range.

I do like the Volvo S70 too but there don't seem to be any manuals in New Zealand (it was a car I was considering when my white VR-4 was stolen). The automatic transmissions are ridiculously expensive to repair - when I had my white VR-4's AT rebuilt, I asked if there were any builds in the shop more expensive than mine, I just about fell over when he told me how much the Volvo rebuild cost.

Yes and if you're that way inclined to go with the diesel (which is a great option to save money) the the HDi in 2000 onwards models is an amazing engine, and the PSA diesels are well known to get into the 400,000+ kms region with little to no trouble.

Yes the Volvos are hard to find in manual but the automatics very rarely give trouble. The kit is probably expensive because it isn't a mainstream repair. If I had to chose between a Mitsubishi auto and a Volvo auto I would go with the Volvo auto.

[bradc]

My dislike for the 626 is simple, my mum bought one new in 1998 and while it never broke down over 250,000km of driving the interior quality, plastics, engine, gear changes and everything else are woeful compared to the ST-R that replaced it. The seats were particularly bad, I'm not a tall person but I sat in it very high up and it always felt like a 4wd, very ponderous.

I'm sure there are better options for a $4-6k sedan but the 626 is a pile of crap

[bradc]

My dislike for the 626 is simple, my mum bought one new in 1998 and while it never broke down over 250,000km of driving the interior quality, plastics, engine, gear changes and everything else are woeful compared to the ST-R that replaced it. The seats were particularly bad, I'm not a tall person but I sat in it very high up and it always felt like a 4wd, very ponderous.

I'm sure there are better options for a $4-6k sedan but the 626 is a pile of crap

[Ryan]

Double Post... :toilet:

[fuel]

my mum bought one new in 1998 and while it never broke down over 250,000km

The sad thing is, this is what the 626 has over the ST-R. Toyota aren't well regarded for their interior design or quality either (their plastics always seem to rattle) but for some silly reason people pay almost double for an equivalent Toyota counterpart because they are seen to be reliable as sin.

From the early 2000's when Mazda adopted their 'zoom zoom zoom' philosophy their cars got alot better to drive and were very very stylish. The Mazda 3 and Mazda 6 are two good examples of this, the first shape 6 took most of the world by storm and is very popular among fleet buyers, which very few Mitsubishis of that era were unsuccessful in that regard.

[fuel]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=301814456

That's a good car but the P11 lacks in interior space and boot space which is important for the mid-sized car. If possible I would look for one with a black interior, as the light grey interior Nissan likes to use shows up dirt and stains very easily and is usually difficult to clean back to former glory.

[Johny]

sr20 is pretty low maintenance though lol

[bradc]

The str is near bullet proof though too, the crank and pistons are the same part numbers as a vr4, the manual box is brilliant and the rear diff is the same as a type v vr4, the only thing I could ever imagine going wrong with it that is severe is the lower ball joints

An nznew v6 galant is going to be just as good

Ryan - using the iPhone today :)

[fuel]

yes, but because of that people tend to not maintain them at all.. and then you get all sorts of problems like oil gunk from lack of oil changes blocking up the oil galleries to the cam lobe squirters causing the cam shafts to wear out, accompanied by an incredible noise and sounding very horrible and rough running at the same time. Another issue with the SR20DEs is the cam chain tensioner, even low kms examples exhibit a horrible chain slapping noise on startup from anything from a few seconds up to 10 seconds. The starter motors are weak also and tend to wear out too early.

Don't get me wrong they're a fantastic engine, and they certainly are low maintenance but they aren't without their problems.

[fuel]

going in for 3rd time lucky Brad?

[Ryan]

Ryan - using the iPhone today :)

I think you need to give it to me. My Nokia may be more to your liking :2thumbsup

[bradc]

Fixed it now Phil

[fuel]

the requirements of the OP is that they need an automatic. The fact is Mitsubishi automatics are not as reliable or as tolerant of abuse as many other makers. I've seen plenty of ST-Rs strip input shaft splines like the VR-4s do, and then you've got the issue with the torque converter lock up clutch shuddering which happened on my 123k kms ST-R.

I'm not saying the 626 is necessarily better than the Galant, I'm just saying for the OP's needs the 626 is another good alternative along with other cars I noted.

[bradc]

I had heard that the later v6 ones are better, but yeah I'll accept they aren't the best

I'd trust one over a first gen cvt in a primera!

I think another reason for Richard wanting an 8g is that he knows how to do everything on one of them

[fuel]

yes I wouldn't trust the CVTs either, along with their QG series of engines - the timing chains stretch on them, often before 100,000kms. You would expect a cambelt to even last as long as that.

The NZ-new 8G is a good vehicle, but that's just it - good. Not great. Not excellent - just good. For the money you could find something which is more than just good. That's my message.

[VR4WGN]

the 1.8 GDI is reliable guys... iv never come across any problems with them at all,theyr bullet proof like the 6A13 SOHC... so just rip the 2.4 out when it blows and put 1.8,same mounts and same subs so no problems there....

[dickytim]

The 97 to 02 or there abouts 626 is a pile of crap. Reliable sure, but awful to drive and awful in every other way. Euro cars will be fairly expensive to repair so surely it has to be jap only

Actually Brad that is where you are mistaken, there is another....

A

U

S

S

I

E

.

We found a 2002 series 3 AU falcon for really good money, I have done some searching and they don't drink that badly if you treat them right, the one we are getting has a full Ford dealership service history, which means it is running the latest ECU tweeks and has been a 1 owner car since new.


Now to find my car....

I want a V6 Astina in manual, I am going to have a look at one this weekend.

[bradc]

I'd have preferred a Commodore, but at least the series 3 AU is the best falcon ever.

Which shape Mazda are you going for?

http://www.goo-net.com/catalog/MAZDA/LANTIS/2501437/index.html or
http://www.goo-net.com/catalog/MAZDA/FAMILIA_ASTINA/2501283/index.html

I much prefer the Lantis :)

[dickytim]

I'd have preferred a Commodore, but at least the series 3 AU is the best falcon ever.

Which shape Mazda are you going for?

http://www.goo-net.com/catalog/MAZDA/LANTIS/2501437/index.html or
http://www.goo-net.com/catalog/MAZDA/FAMILIA_ASTINA/2501283/index.html

I much prefer the Lantis :)

Option 1, but definately the 5 door, we drove a red hard top about 2 min from your place and it was horrible, and yes I definately want the V6 version :)

Do they all have 125kw or are some 102kw ?

I can't seem to find alot of information on them.

[bradc]

Everything you want is here

http://www.goo-net.com/catalog/MAZDA/LANTIS/index.html

It appears all V6's have 125kw and their redline is 7250rpm.

The R models have an optional LSD so I would go for an R model.

[mattnz]

I'd have preferred a Commodore, but at least the series 3 AU is the best falcon ever.

Which shape Mazda are you going for?

http://www.goo-net.com/catalog/MAZDA/LANTIS/2501437/index.html or
http://www.goo-net.com/catalog/MAZDA/FAMILIA_ASTINA/2501283/index.html

I much prefer the Lantis :)

AU best ever? The cockroach-mobile?

[Subaru ETA]

Correction - au3 ts50 is probably the best. I would own one anyday over the crap they have at the moment. But even then I wouldn't put my hard earned money into a falcon. The commodore of the same era (vt - vx) is a much better looking and performing car.

If buying any v6 Mazda listen for rattles from the top of the engine. Apart from that, and being a pig to work on in general they are pretty good cars

[dickytim]

Correction - au3 ts50 is probably the best. I would own one anyday over the crap they have at the moment. But even then I wouldn't put my hard earned money into a falcon. The commodore of the same era (vt - vx) is a much better looking and performing car.

If buying any v6 Mazda listen for rattles from the top of the engine. Apart from that, and being a pig to work on in general they are pretty good cars

The Falcon is not my first choice but it fits all the criteria for us.

Can tow a horse float
Is a reliable, fairly low maintainance car
Is a late model
Is nice to drive

oh and is $3,000

[djb160]

Beats the crap out of Green Machine, it;
Can't tow anything
is unreliable and is looking like it'll be high maintanance
Not even close to a late model
Is not very nice to drive - ATM

I say enjoy it. Have fun.

[fuel]

You can get moderate kms 02+ Ford Mondeos for sub $5000 these days - they all come with curtain side air bags as standard and are a reasonably reliable car, there are plenty of fleet operators running them along with Mazda 6s. Admittedly their automatics aren't as good as the manuals though.

I just picked up an '04 Mondeo 2.0 5 speed manual estate in reasonably tidy condition yesterday for $2505 - it's cheap because it's done near 400,000kms but it certainly doesn't feel it when you drive it. It still has most of its 12 month WOF valid. That kind of money can't even find you a decent early 90s Corolla these days.

[Subaru ETA]

O Jesus I wouldn't touch a mondog!

And au falcons are anything but reliable

[fuel]

I don't understand why reliability is your #1 concern, you drive a Mitsubishi for gods sake.

That could be said about the Mk1 and Mk2 Mondeos but the Mk3 and Mk4 Mondeos are excellent cars. The Mk4 rides on the same platform as the Mazda6, and the common 2.0 4cyl engine in the Mk3 very rarely gives trouble. The only dubious thing about the Mk3 is the automatic transmissions but they aren't any worse than Mitsubishi automatic transmissions.

They're a popular fleet car because they're relatively cheap to maintain, pretty hard wearing and have plenty of features and safety equipment. Not to mention they handle and ride incredibly well in stock standard form.

You will struggle to find a mid-sized Mitsubishi (or other jappa for that matter) which matches the value you would get from a Mondeo.

If she would accept a manual, this one here would be a perfect buy - http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Cars/Ford/Mondeo/auction-302460363.htm - for $6k you wouldn't be able to find anything in that age range better.

Or a cheap auto if she doesn't mind the higher kms - http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Cars/Ford/Mondeo/auction-302706297.htm

[Subaru ETA]

The reason fleet companies love them is because they were cheaper then the Mazda 6 and a lot of companies won't allow anything over 2l. The mz 6 was never sold here as a 2l wagon.

The mondeo also as 20000km service intervals. This is why a mz 6 engine will always out live the engine in a mondeo.

The trans is crap in the mondeo, the head gaskets blow all the time in them. The brakes wear out like they are made of butter.... Do I need to go on? Lol

[bradc]

Heh, extended service intervals always make me laugh.

Ford marketing: if we tell people 20,000km service intervals, is the engine likely to last for 3 years and 100,000km when the warranty expires?

Ford engineering: errrm probably will but it will last for 500,000km if you change the oil every 10,000km.

Ford marketing: ok cool, 20,000km it is.

[fuel]

Most cars these days have 20,000kms service intervals, it's hardly limited to Ford at all.

Also transmissions failing and head gaskets blowing - No, that has never happened to a Mitsubishi before.

[dickytim]

I don't understand why reliability is your #1 concern, you drive a Mitsubishi for gods sake.

That could be said about the Mk1 and Mk2 Mondeos but the Mk3 and Mk4 Mondeos are excellent cars. The Mk4 rides on the same platform as the Mazda6, and the common 2.0 4cyl engine in the Mk3 very rarely gives trouble. The only dubious thing about the Mk3 is the automatic transmissions but they aren't any worse than Mitsubishi automatic transmissions.

They're a popular fleet car because they're relatively cheap to maintain, pretty hard wearing and have plenty of features and safety equipment. Not to mention they handle and ride incredibly well in stock standard form.

You will struggle to find a mid-sized Mitsubishi (or other jappa for that matter) which matches the value you would get from a Mondeo.

If she would accept a manual, this one here would be a perfect buy - http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Cars/Ford/Mondeo/auction-302460363.htm - for $6k you wouldn't be able to find anything in that age range better.

Or a cheap auto if she doesn't mind the higher kms - http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Cars/Ford/Mondeo/auction-302706297.htm

We had mondeo's for company cars a few years ago. TBH I find them boring and a bit flat to drive.

I am happy with the Falcon, and if Stacey doesn't want it I'll take it and we'll find a car for her.

Thanks all for your input.

[Subaru ETA]

Fuel - go work at a ford dealership for a week then get back to me about how reliable mondeos are lol.

And yes, ford are not the only company to have 20k service intervials but the mondeo was one of the first to have it in nz. Even mitsi have gone out to 15k on some models.

And I never once said that mitsis don't break down however i know for a fact that mondeos have alot more major fails then mitsis.

Plus the LF engine does not like running low on oil. They have 20k service intervals. Now most of them are fleet cars and the drivers don't really give a **** about them so it can be up to 40k before they see the workshop for there first service.

Now considering that most mondeos are ex fleet cars I would not buy one soley on this point alone.

[fuel]

Yes I certainly do know where you're coming from I agree the Mondeo is not up there with reliability like a boring Camry or something, but reliability aside they're not a bad car, and perhaps not a particularly outstanding car - but given the value of them these days they have to be one of the best 'bang for buck' modern cars out there with an array of features which you wouldn't find on a similar priced Jappa from the 90s.

As I don't dabble in one marque specifically, given the trade I am in I do have quite a bit of knowledge and experience with many makes and models of cars made in the last 20 years. As earlier in this thread I am very much a big fan of Mitsubishis and I always will be - but we all know that a large majority of their models don't rank high in the reliability department, so when someone is evaluating a Mitsubishi as a possibility there's no harm in looking at alternatives in the same league but which perhaps offers better value for money like the Mondeo (and evidently as found out by the OP, the AU Falcon).

Most fleet companies have a strict servicing policy, they have to in order to be sure their supplied vehicles are going to be up to the task for their clients. This Mondeo I have has a service history for the first 300,000kms of its life with most of it just being oil/filter changes every 20k for the first 160k then 10k changes thereafter, and other maintenance items such as disc rotors and brake pads. I can't see anything major in the first 300,000kms - not even a clutch replacement however that's not to say it hasn't been done after 300,000kms.

[Subaru ETA]

Guess we will have to agree to disagree but if you hadn't worked it out buy trade I'm a Mazda technician, but worked at a ford/Mazda dealer so I have alot of experience with both makes. When you are doing a head gasket a week and a trans every second you kind of loose faith in that make/model. However I would buy a Mazda any day of the week because I know how reliable they are (plus the mz6 is a lot nicer drive then the mondeo)

In my job now we contract to most of the manufactures so I know the stats on break downs. I can't say which ones or anything because of our contract with each manufacture but it really does open your eyes

[fuel]

yes definitely I come from a mechanical background also but I can admit I haven't had much to do with Fords.

I definitely like the Mazda 6 it is a great car, I got my parents into an ex-lease '03 NZ-new GSX Sports Hatch model which had done 140k when they purchased it in '08 for $10.5k which was really really good buying at the time. Heck I think even nearly two years on they would have barely lost any money on it, if any at all.

But here in lies the value, and I'm a guy big on value (if you haven't noticed), but that's just the salesman in me. The Mondeo and Mazda 6 are very similar cars on paper, with the 6 having the edge in terms of performance, reliability and perhaps style (however this is down to each persons taste), but when a Mazda 6 is almost double the price of a similar Mondeo I don't see them to be twice the car.

It's like anything Toyota - they have to be the one make I don't really have much to do with simply because everyone selling their Toyota wants top dollar and everyone who wants to buy a Toyota wants to pay as little as possible as they're already paying a substantial premium for buying a car with the Toyota badge on it - there's just no money to be made in them from my point of view. Sure they're a very reliable car maker generally but I find most of their cars boring and conservative and other than the reliability aspect I just fail to see why people pay up to double for them than a viable competitor from another car maker.

[fuel]

Also as I started out in Mitsubishi, and having worked in a Mitsubishi dealer for a small period it too certainly opened my eyes about Mitsubishi.. but you get this with many other makers like Subaru, Alfa Romeo, Fiat etc all of which usually have enjoyable and great cars to drive once you put the reliability aspect aside.

I just find it a little strange, that us as Mitsubishi owners who often have to defend our choice in cars because everyone says they're unreliable, will bag on other cars and dismiss other choices because they too are unreliable. This is my main point I am getting at.