Boost it

[stonegr]

I'm thinkink to boost it on 1,2 bar from 0,7 which is now
The tiptronic gearbox can handle the power of the extra 0,5 bar?? INSERT INTO post VALUES (i am thinking to boost it up to 1.2bar by remaping and boost controler of course).
The superchips or Unichip have anything for VR4's ?
What is better for VR4?
The tiptronic gearbox can handle the extra boost???
how many bhp and torque the car will gain on 1,2 bar and a remaped ECU ???:confused:

[mook]

Hi. I'm afraid I don't know the specifics for this motor, but one general rule of thumb is each extra psi of boost is equvelant to around 10bhp, all things being equal. So, you're extra 0.5 bar is about 7 psi, which could be upto an extra 70bhp. This is probably unlikely as increases in boost tend not to be linear, so i'd imagine anything from 40-50 is more realistic. As well as the gearbox you have to be sure that the engine internals can take the increase, and you'd probably need some extra fueling by way of uprated fuel pump, possibly bigger injectors, and your remapped ECU of course.

Having said that, I don't know these cars at all, so it could all be hogwash :o

[-LegnumVR4-]

I've been told by a guy in Japan they if u start to push over 0.9 bar on the auto's the transmission 'can' break. thats all he said, didn't tell me how to strength it. To up the boost to 1.2 bar the guys in Japan replace there ECU with a Mines or some of the other fancy aftermarket ECU. These ECU's have been remap and all sorts of crazy things done to them.

It would be nice to reprogram the stock ECU.

[BraindG]

My stock ECU will be getting remapped up to 1.2 soon.. ill tell you how it gets on, once i get car back... but im needing to sort out the brakes ASAP. no point having all the power if i cant stop.. the shuddering caused under braking is killing the car.. im sure of it..

[haydar]

Originally posted by BraindG
My stock ECU will be getting remapped up to 1.2 soon.. ill tell you how it gets on, once i get car back... but im needing to sort out the brakes ASAP. no point having all the power if i cant stop.. the shuddering caused under braking is killing the car.. im sure of it..

Who is doing the re-mapping and how much is it costing? If you get the ECU remapped does this mean you don't need a boost controller???

Also, I know that pre-98 cars with tiptronic gearboxes were limited to 260ps instead of the 280 of later cars. Was this specifically done by lowering the boost value? So if I get a boost controller does this mean I don't need a newer ECU?

[-LegnumVR4-]

No they didn't rise the boost with the 280BHP ECU. The just tweaked the fuel maps. If they did increase the boost i would have had boost cut as i'm just running a valve not an EBC.

[stonegr]

1. The Unichip dealer INSERT INTO post VALUES (here in Cyprus) can remap the vr4 ECU for 450CYP ---> almost 530GBP and gives 1 year money back and 3 years guaranty.INSERT INTO post VALUES (He also said that the VR4 will produce 330hp after the remaping)INSERT INTO post VALUES (Dastek maps tweaks ECU)
IS IT A GOOD PRICE?

2. I read someware on the net that the VR4 engine can take up to 1,5 - 1,6 bar.INSERT INTO post VALUES (But i still dont know for the triptronic gearbox).

http://www.dastek.co.za/
<<The UNICHIP is much more than just a "chip". In actual fact it is a fully functioning computer which is added to the vehicle’s existing engine control unit INSERT INTO post VALUES (ECU). Apart from controlling general timing and mixtures it can do idling control, drive extra injectors, take full control over timing functions, eliminate road speed governors etc. It can be accurately described as a "Piggyback" computer.

The UNICHIP gets wired into the existing ECU harness. If it is removed the vehicle is back to standard. Unlike other after-market units if the UNICHIP is programmed with zeros the vehicle will be standard. Only areas where the vehicle isn’t perfect need to be altered.

The main difference between other after-market "chips" and the UNICHIP is that with the UNICHIP every individual vehicle is optimised. It is not just a chip that was made on one particular vehicle and then gets used on other similar vehicles.>>

[haydar]

Originally posted by stonegr
1. The Unichip dealer INSERT INTO post VALUES (here in Cyprus) can remap the vr4 ECU for 450CYP ---> almost 530GBP and gives 1 year money back and 3 years guaranty.INSERT INTO post VALUES (He also said that the VR4 will produce 330hp after the remaping)INSERT INTO post VALUES (Dastek maps twiks
IS IT A GOOD PRICE?

2. I read someware on the net that the VR4 engine can take up to 1,5 - 1,6 bar.INSERT INTO post VALUES (But i still dont know for the triptronic gearbox).

http://www.dastek.co.za/
<<The UNICHIP is much more than just a "chip". In actual fact it is a fully functioning computer which is added to the vehicle’s existing engine control unit INSERT INTO post VALUES (ECU). Apart from controlling general timing and mixtures it can do idling control, drive extra injectors, take full control over timing functions, eliminate road speed governors etc. It can be accurately described as a "Piggyback" computer.

The UNICHIP gets wired into the existing ECU harness. If it is removed the vehicle is back to standard. Unlike other after-market units if the UNICHIP is programmed with zeros the vehicle will be standard. Only areas where the vehicle isn’t perfect need to be altered.

The main difference between other after-market "chips" and the UNICHIP is that with the UNICHIP every individual vehicle is optimised. It is not just a chip that was made on one particular vehicle and then gets used on other similar vehicles.>>

This is a good price compare to the UK. In the UK you are looking at about £700 for the chip alone! Plus the fact that your guy is giving you such a solid guaranty. I'm not sure about the power hike to 330hp but it could be possible I guess.

If you go for it please let us know how he got on. Also, find out how much he's getting the Unichip for? If it's cheap enough we may want you to send a few over here to the UK. :)

[pjjohnson]

I've had the car running 1.2 bar boost for tens of thousands of miles with an auto gearbox without problems. I ran it at 1.4 bar for a while and had some turbo problems, so went back to 1.2

It was done using the HKS EVC IV boost controller. The car went really well, with no problems with fuel cut out and nothing was done to the ECU. Then the speed limiter was taken off and I started to have problems with fuel cut out. How it was sorted I don't know, TDI had it for three days and it was OK. Its a face lift model with 280 bhp as standard. This was all back in 2000, so I can't remember the details.

Anyway next step is next week when new intercooler and a Unichip is fitted to get as much performance as I can out of it.

[BraindG]

which intercooler you geting?

[pjjohnson]

See here:

www.trust-power.com/mitsubishi/legnum/greddy/intercooler_kit.html

its the 200x600x76 one. Lets hope it does something worthwhile, not just give me more lag. They say that the lag can be tuned out with the Unichip.

[pjjohnson]

oops should be 240x600x76, its bigger than I thought, INSERT INTO post VALUES ( I wish)

[BraindG]

it pretty laggy for you just now?

[pjjohnson]

Hardly any lag at all at he moment. Its just I've heard that a bigger intercooler can result in more lag for some reason.

[BraindG]

ah :) was getting worried.. was thinking pumping it up to 1.2 was gonna cause lag..

will have to look into the lag thing with the intercooler, as im planning one fairly soon..

the injectors... they dealing ok?

[pjjohnson]

The injectors have coped well in the past, but at the moment its down to 1 bar because there is an issue with the fuelling somewhere along the line. I did have the car on a RR at Power Engineering years ago when it was running 1.2 bar and they proclaimed ' plenty of fuel'. I wasn't aware of the significance at the time.

I have recently had my fuel filter changed which might have cured it, but I won't find out till I have the unichip work done. The fuel filter INSERT INTO post VALUES ( this is according to my dealer ) should be changed every 18000 miles. Mine hadn't been done for 55,000 so I hope it has improved flow. BTW the car had been into the dealer frequently during those 55,000 miles to have servicing done, but they forgot to do the fuel filter - typical - I wonder if they forgot to do the AYC as well.

[calum]

Originally posted by BraindG
My stock ECU will be getting remapped up to 1.2 soon.. ill tell you how it gets on, once i get car back... but im needing to sort out the brakes ASAP. no point having all the power if i cant stop.. the shuddering caused under braking is killing the car.. im sure of it..

Who's doing the mapping? Noble's in Chesterfield INSERT INTO post VALUES (sheffield) are pretty good with the unichip.

New brake discs will stop the shuddering - not too expensive, either.

Calum

[mook]

With regards to turbo lag -

Upping the boost on your existing turbo will not increase lag, it is the same turbo which will spin up and flow as much as it has previously. It might take a touch longer to reach full boost , but that is different from lag.

Putting on a bigger intercooler will increase lag. The intercooler will increase the cubic volume of air between the turbo and the inlet manifold. This means there's more physical air to pump up to the desired psi before it actually reaches the engine.

A bigger turbo will increase lag, all things being equal, as it's sheer size will mean it takes longer to actually spin up. You can of course go for the hybrid turbo with all the latest internals and so forth which would bring down the spin up time. Best of both worlds - bigger turbo, no increase in lag, more power :D

Another quick note on upping the boost. Your standard turbo will only be able to flow a certain amount of boost. If the boost is upped to the point where it's starts to reach the limit of this flow, you can actually find that it runs out of puff at high rpm, due to the fact it physically can't flow enough air to sustain the boost level at higher rpm, and thus higher volume of air used by the engine.

Saying that, again, I have no idea how big the turbo is on the VR-4 and thus have no idea what it's max flow rate is. Might be the case you can push out 30psi before it runs out of puff :o . I've got a Garret T25 on my turbo, not the biggest turbo, but it spins up dead quick. I also know that pushing more than 18psi will lead it to run out of puff at high rpm.

Hope that's of some help :D

[stonegr]

I think VR4's turbos are T2.
I am almost sure :rolleyes:

[-LegnumVR4-]

TDO25's are the VR-4's turbos are far as i know. The TDO4's are the GTO's turbos INSERT INTO post VALUES (larger again).

[EdmundVR4]

TDO25's are stock on the 7G VR4 INSERT INTO post VALUES (6A12T 2.0Litre V6)
TDO4's are stock on the 8G VR4 INSERT INTO post VALUES (6A13T 2.5Litre V6)
TD04 9B 6CM2 are stock on the 3000GT VR4. INSERT INTO post VALUES (6G72T 3.0Litre V6)
I own all of these turbo's.
Ed

[-LegnumVR4-]

Are the turbo's labeled EdmundVR4? I couldn't see anything on the VR-4 motor when i had it out? People had been saying the VR-4 INSERT INTO post VALUES (8g) were TDO25's.

Whats the difference between the VR-4's TDO4's and the GTO's?

[pjjohnson]

I'd be really interested to know for certain what the standard turbo is on a VR4 and if any bolt on uprated ones are available.

I had to have mine replaced in 2001 and at the time I was told that they were a unique size, not a standard size so I couldn't get an uprated version with 360 degree bearings or anything. I was surprised at how small they were.

[EdmundVR4]

I can't remember where I got that impression that the EC5A turbos' are TD04's, but I may be wrong, because I have not actually seen those turbos.
I have seen the TD025s' which are used on the 7G VR4 and the TD04 9Bs' from the GTO. Next time I am at the mechanics' I will try to actually see the turbo's.
Can anyone find out from Ralliart or Mitsubishi what model our turbos' are ?
Ed
PS I don't know if you guys have seen the MHI link above.

[EdmundVR4]

Oops, here's that link !
http://www.mhi.co.jp/gsh/eframe142.htm

[Brind]

Just a quick thought..

The Galant VR-4 has two turbos and as far as I'm aware they work independently from one another, one for low revs and the second for the higher revs, hence the reason why you don't get a kick in your back at about 3000rpm like normal single turbo cars.. just sheer smooth power like a normal aspirated engined car.

[-LegnumVR4-]

I'm pretty sure the 2 turbos work at the sametime.

[Brind]

I've never felt a sudden kick at a certain rev range, just the instant neck snap at very low revs and up.
Certainly not the same feeling as a single turbo vehicle.

Curious? :Ponder:

[haydar]

Originally posted by -LegnumVR4-
I'm pretty sure the 2 turbos work at the sametime.


Yes, the Turbos work together and not one at a time. 'V' engines, such as V6, have two turbos, one for each bank of pistons. These work together as if they were one bigger turbo. Straight engines can have sequential turbos, one working at lower rpm and the second kicking in at higher rpm. The purpose of this is to reduce turbo lag as the smaller turbo spins up quickly producing a level of power before the larger turbo has enough pressure to spin up.

[Brind]

Oh right! cool. :)

[haydar]

Originally posted by mook
With regards to turbo lag -

Another quick note on upping the boost. Your standard turbo will only be able to flow a certain amount of boost. If the boost is upped to the point where it's starts to reach the limit of this flow, you can actually find that it runs out of puff at high rpm, due to the fact it physically can't flow enough air to sustain the boost level at higher rpm, and thus higher volume of air used by the engine.

Hope that's of some help :D

I don't know what the standard turbos on the VR4 are but they are relatively small turbos I've been told and by upping the boost pressure will not preduce a large jump in ultimate horse power. What it will do is spin up the turbos much quicker and hence the car will have much more power lower down and the torque will increase significantly.

If anyone really wants much more horse power they'll need to consider installing bigger turbos I think.

[mook]

Just had another thought. Seeing as you have a turbo for each side of the engine working in tandem, it makes things a little easier - each turbo is only have to work on 1.25 litres of engine which should give it more of a chance to keep up if you boost up a fair bit :D

[BraindG]

my main concern, is still.. whats the safest boost level... before the pistons start a blowing :eek: or before we forged stuff is required... :nervous:

i understand 1.2bar has been tested, and ran without problems..

[-LegnumVR4-]

The guy who put the 6a13 into his FTO and did a single turbo conversionn said he was running 18psi and getting 400bhp without any problems but his injectors are running out, needs new ones:)

[haydar]

Will be putting the car on a rolling road soon. Will give everyone feedback on my finding. The most interesting thing I've learnt so far though is that the BHP of the car at the wheel is very different compared to the BHP at the crank. It seems that 18% of power is lost through the transmission in a 2 wheel drive car :INSERT INTO post VALUES ( . This goes up to 24% for a 4 wheel drive car :mad: . If you have an auto box then you need to add another 8% loss due to the torque convertor. :Cry1:

[calum]

When I RR'd mine the transmission losses measured very low. (http://www.aoqo52.dsl.pipex.com/vr4_star_performance_rr_2nd_feb_03.jpg)

This was on 95 ron fuel.

Calum

[haydar]

Originally posted by calum
When I RR'd mine the transmission losses measured very low. (http://www.aoqo52.dsl.pipex.com/vr4_star_performance_rr_2nd_feb_03.jpg)

This was on 95 ron fuel.

Calum

Calum, the output at the P-wheel says 183bhp. If you are losing 24% due to the four wheel drive system and an extra 8% due to the auto transmission then if we do the following equation:-

Power going to the wheels is 100- INSERT INTO post VALUES (24+8) = 68.

If power to the wheels is 183 and this is 68% of power at the crank then:-

183/68 *100 = 269bhp at the crank.

This sounds about right.

[chris g]

TDI advertise a turbo upgrade kit

[calum]

You're right INSERT INTO post VALUES (of course). Hadn't looked at the graph for ages. Just remembered that it measured 58.5bhp which is a lot less than my gt-four loses. Never bothered to work it out as a percentage.

Calum