Spring Rates

[BraindG]

Wont be to long before i put my TEINS on, before i do i need to get harder springs.

For those who were ever in Mauve might remember the stiffness of the car, was like a go-kart - I want to replicate this.

from this (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=493604&postcount=14) thread i found

Tein S-Tech 3.9kg F 2.7kg R
Tein Basic 5kg F 3kg R
Tein Flex 8kg F 5kg R

I'm looking for the car not to move when pushing down over the front arches, the Tein Flex 8kg F 5kg R should do this or?

Does anyone have the Tein Flex 8kg F 5kg R if so how much move ment is there when you push down on the car?

Cheers

[Gowf]

Barry, there comes a point where it becomes too stiff and is just a nightmare to drive. But with the 8 and 5 you will still get a wee bit of movement when you push down. I was running 650lb/in and 450lbin front and rear (11.6Kg/mm, 8Kg/mm) and even they to me were still a little soft. But then i wanted similar to what you are suggesting. I sold them to Mark4 and he changed the springs back to the 5-3 that the teins came with.

If you want springs best place to go is Faulkners. They are really good, keep a huge selection in stock and will make you what you want, and they're only around 25-30 per spring. Just remember though, if you are increasing your spring rate you will need to reduce the length of your spring (quite easy to calculate) to achieve the correct ride height. You may also then want helper springs in there, but there's no real point unless you plan on being in the air frequently!

[Mark 4]

For the roads around here the 5-3 are nice and comfortable. The harder ones were just crashing through all the road damage that we got last winter. I would have liked to have kept them on but my old back just couldn't take the pounding.

[bradc]

Does anyone know what spring rates Bilstein supply for our cars?

[BraindG]

Thanks for the responses, think it will go with the 8/5 after some further reading.

But like i say, i loved mauve as she was, how it drove and handled im looking to achieve similair to that again - was imo a dream to drive, its handling was just amazing.

[Gly]

you had tanabes in the mauve?

there front 10.8 and rear 8.6 very go cart like

i can tell you that 8 and 5 is to soft and not go cart like at all,
as thats whats on my cuscos
they wont move when you hand push them,
but go over a few rolly roads and speed bumps and you'll find your bottoming out.

[Mark 4]

Barry, you are welcome to borrow the 11/8 springs when I get back from the ring in a couple of weeks.

[BraindG]

you had tanabes in the mauve?

there front 10.8 and rear 8.6 very go cart like

i can tell you that 8 and 5 is to soft and not go cart like at all,
as thats whats on my cuscos
they wont move when you hand push them,
but go over a few rolly roads and speed bumps and you'll find your bottoming out.
Oh rly?

Thats interesting, yeah alot of bottoming out but you get to learn the roads, where to be etc - worth the pain just for the rewards.

Cool, i never knew the spring rate, cheers mate.

[BraindG]

Barry, you are welcome to borrow the 11/8 springs when I get back from the ring in a couple of weeks.

Nice one mate, appreciated! - But, think i know my ratings now :) so will be purchasing them rather than than taking the suspension off and on again :)

[Nutter_John]

On the coilovers on my Blue one they were 14kg front and 10 kg rear , quite firm but not back breaking . Loved the way it handled

[Gly]

you can prob go lighter in the rear in a G, (7kg)

but id be using no less than 10 in the front,

thats just my opinion

[VR457]

Just remember though, if you are increasing your spring rate you will need to reduce the length of your spring (quite easy to calculate) to achieve the correct ride height.

So, is it possible to have a spring that is standard height but with a higher spring rate?

[Gowf]

You achieve the same ride height by putting on a shorter spring. This is simply due the spring not compressing as much for the same load. Now idealy you do need to know corner weights for a true calculation, but if you assume as mass over the wheel that is supported by the spring, if you take it simply then you can calculate the displacement of that particular spring rate. From the difference in displacement between the two you then know how much shorter you want the spring. This is assuming same diameter and same wire diameter and angle of spring.

[Mark 4]

Barry, you may want to consider ARB's from Peter Tompson. I fitted my rear bar a couple of weeks ago and am very pleased with it. Fitted the front last night so will post up my findings on that either later today or tomorrow, depending on when I can be arsed to put all the front shafts back together.

[BraindG]

Cheers mate, yeah ive got some cusco ARB's, some poly bushes ready to go on along side the new suspensions, feel like a kiddie in a sweet shop.. gogo go-kart go!

[VR457]

You achieve the same ride height by putting on a shorter spring. This is simply due the spring not compressing as much for the same load. Now idealy you do need to know corner weights for a true calculation, but if you assume as mass over the wheel that is supported by the spring, if you take it simply then you can calculate the displacement of that particular spring rate. From the difference in displacement between the two you then know how much shorter you want the spring. This is assuming same diameter and same wire diameter and angle of spring.

A most detailed and excellent reply. Springs such as Teins and the like all seem to lower the height of the car which, given the state of our roads is not something i want. On the other hand, having say, a stiff rear spring, means i can load up the back with sound equipment and not worry so much about humps etc.

[Nube]

Out of interest, what are the standard rates? This is a dilemma I've been dithering with myself lately, want to lower and firm up the handling a bit without ruining the ride. The biggest problem I've got is the wonderfully corrugated roads of Hants/Surrey!!

[Gly]

Mitsubishi hasn't published there spring rates,
so without having them taken off and tested, who knows?

[bradc]

I have the standard spring rate at home but not here.

I dropped my Bilsteins into Autolign and they are going to build me up a custom set, will be interesting to see what they think is best. The Bilsteins were 4.5kg and 2kg which means they must have been designed for a 2wd 1.8 Galant!

[swinks]

What Bilsteins, Brad?

[Gowf]

you dont need a tensometer to measure spring rates. You can calculate them from measurements of the spring

[bradc]

B8 shocks and bilstein springs of some description

[MYKEY]

I have the standard spring rate at home but not here.

I dropped my Bilsteins into Autolign and they are going to build me up a custom set, will be interesting to see what they think is best. The Bilsteins were 4.5kg and 2kg which means they must have been designed for a 2wd 1.8 Galant!

Just out of interest Brad, do you have the standard spring rate info, only ask as i am looking at my options with regards to springs/shocks combo or going for coilovers.
It would be helpful to have the the standard rates to get an idea of how much harsher different rates will be, cheers :happy:

[bradc]

Stock is about 4kg and 2.5kg for a Legnum, I think Galants are slightly lower in the rear. If you move to a lowering spring though you must increase the spring rates substantially, otherwise the car will bottom out.

[twisted32]

Have you had the new springs made to match the B8's Brad? What did the rates end up being?

[Gly]

11kg f and 9kg r i believe, they recommended pretty much what the tanabes come with

[Kenneth]

I am very happy with 12kg front and 8kg rear in my Galant. Even Jo is happy being a passenger. Just gotta make sure you can adjust the damper rates right down when around town.

[bradc]

Yeah something around that spring rate. I forget exactly what though.

[twisted32]

So how do they feel now Brad?

[bradc]

Good

[BraindG]

To conclude (nearly) this thread, about a year and a half later :P

I am going for 10kg front, 8kg Rear - Parts required for this are.

1 x SV100-01225 Front Springs
1 x SQ080-01175 Rear Springs
2 x CR019-01080 Helper Springs
2 x USS01-95585 Spacers

Fronts arrived today :) - The rest are in the US, making use of a colleague to purchase and ship them.

[VR457]

How much does this setup come to, if i may ask?

[BraindG]

The springs are about £200 - I'm getting them from the states, via a colleague - The price is considerably cheaper than TEIN UK/Japan - Although, the part numbers are a little different - I will post up once i know the US part numbers.

[VR457]

Thanks for that. Is the drop the usual Tein, 25 or so mm?

[VR457]

Can you give us any updates on these, whether they are part of a coilover setup or can be used with normal dampers?

[BraindG]

Nearly 2 years after posting original thread....

TADAAAA!!!


/bounce /Steeringw /rally /Banana

[BraindG]

Erm, do helper springs go at the top or bottom?


Google seems to suggest a mixture, saying that I can't seem to fit them at the bottom as the dust covers are in way.

Does it matter?

Cheers.

[adaxo]

Mine are fitted at the bottom

[BraindG]

Cheers Adam, mine will have to go at the top, the spacer doesn't fit over the dust cover thing.

Hopefully get them on he car tomorrow!

[Davezj]

i fitted my helper springs at the bottom.

[adaxo]

Cheers Adam, mine will have to go at the top, the spacer doesn't fit over the dust cover thing.

Hopefully get them on he car tomorrow!

Any plans of live streaming??/popcorn

[BraindG]

Yeah, there is Jo way I can get the helper springs at the bottom, the spacer doesn't even fit over the dust thing - according to google, evo/scooby and some other forums the general consensus seems to be it doesn't matter.... We'll see :p

No live streaming but I will timelapse the job!

[Davezj]

you are right barry it doesn't matter which end of the spring the helper spring is fitted.

the only reason the helper spring is there is to take up the slack in the spring when the shock extends to it's maximum and the spring on it's own is not long enough to to fill the gap. but the full extention of the spring will only occur when all the weight is taken off the spring, either when you jack the car up or get some air off a jump in the car.
if you fit the springs and find you need the spring compressors to get the top mount on the end of the shock you don't need the helper springs fitted at all. but if you put the spring on and it doesn't touch both top and bottom of the shock mounts it needs the helper springs fitting.

with the helper spring fitted when the weight is put on the spring the helper spring will compress first and act like a solid lump of metal that the actual spring presses up aganst.

i know you didn't ask for this info but i thought i would share.

[BraindG]

Cheers Dave, more info the better :)

I've got the front shocks done, will fit them to car tomorrow and then put the stronger springs on the rears and get them on the car... finally, a lowered, stiffer car! can't bloody wait.

[adaxo]

R you sure that stiffer spring going on the rear?? usually is other way round, stiffer ratio at the front. Front is much heavier than back, hence higher spring ratio is required to keeps front-rear even.

[BraindG]

no, my bad english there Adam... stonger springs out of the set i have on the front.... but stronger than what the rears are on the back... erm.. ahem... that still doesnt make sense.. but dont worry, out of the new springs i have, the stiffer at at the front! :P

[adaxo]

That makes a perfect sense, now. :laugh:

[BraindG]

That makes a perfect sense, now. :laugh:

In typical Barry fashion!

[BraindG]

I have a question, I would have thought the car would feel more bone rattling post installation. The spring rates are front 10 and rear 8.

If I push down on car it still moves a bit, unlike my first VR4 which had similar ratings, on that car i was unable to move the car when pushing down on it.

Is this due to the helper springs or have I done something wrong during install?

Ta.

[Humpty's Revenge]

I have a question, I would have thought the car would feel more bone rattling post installation. The spring rates are front 10 and rear 8.

If I push down on car it still moves a bit, unlike my first VR4 which had similar ratings, on that car i was unable to move the car when pushing down on it.

Is this due to the helper springs or have I done something wrong during install?

Ta.

Have you taken it for a spin?

[Davezj]

Now car is on the ground the helper springs will be completely crushed so they act like a solid block of metal, so no give in them, only the spring you fitted.
The quality of the damper with resist the push down on to the wing as well as the spring. If you shocks are tired then the springs might bounce more than might think.
Plus rose tinted glasses might be effecting your memory a bit of you old vr4.

[adaxo]

Let it settle down for few miles, ideally you should pump new shocks full up and down few times b4 assembly.

[BraindG]

Alright, thanks guys - I didn't know about the pumping thing - ill leave it for a few days and see if things settle :)

Thanks again!

[Humpty's Revenge]

Alright, thanks guys - I didn't know about the pumping thing - ill leave it for a few days and see if things settle :)

Thanks again!

All you got to do Barry is take it for a mile or two spin to bed them in then they will settle down!

[MarkSanne]

Barry, do you know the partnumber for these helper springs? The TEINs on the VR2 tend to bump al the way out when I drive over a bump (actually when I leave a bump I hear a knocking sound).

[BraindG]

Hi Mark,

The parts I have are...

1 x SV100-01225 Front Springs
1 x SQ080-01175 Rear Springs
2 x CR019-01080 Helper Springs
2 x USS01-95585 Spacers

I've not heard any knocking, although saying that i've not being over any bumps yet.

I have noticed that the car (as expected) is much more solid going into, going round and exiting corners, still not what I remember the First VR4 being like but as Dave said, might be a case of rose tinted glasses.

[MarkSanne]

Thanks Barry. So what is the function and placement of the spacer?

[BraindG]

Thanks Barry. So what is the function and placement of the spacer?

The placement is at the top, there was no way to fit them at the bottom as the boot wouldnt allow the spacer to sit over it.

In discussion with TEIN dealer here in UK he replied with the following, which ultimatly concluded in the parts i listed above.


I spoke further to our engineer on clarification on this and he
suggests a higher spring rate is not ideal for use with this
damper.

The damper itself has a lengthy stroke and even with a higher
spring rate, it is possible that springs will contact each other,
before the damper stroke has completed. This is even with the
conservative 7/5kg suggestion.

This means that there is room for noise emissions, and
possibility of earlier than normal, corossion of the spring.

If these risks are OK with you, you may be able to use some
springs from within our range of standard springs.

Not sure if the above is of any relevance, but there you go :D

[Davezj]

As i understand it the spacer fits between the helper spring and the main spring to ensure the two springs always line up and dont fall off eachother. see barry's picture in post 39. it is the black disk at the bottom of the picture, you will need to open the picture fully to see what it is.
it is one cylinder of the internal diameter of each spring (main and helper) and has a disk round it half way up the cylinder this acts as a stop for each spring.
it fits like this, helper spring at bottom then spacer on top then main spring on top of that. (on my coilovers anyway)
or other way up, on barry's
main spring then on top fit spacer then on top of that fit helper spring.
it locks the two spring together.