And it begins: the 6A13TT tear down and build up thread!!

[Adam.Findlay]

As per the title this thread will follow the progress of my complete teardown and build up of my spare 6A13TT for use in my 99" Facelift Legnum

as so far the engine has been accordingly stripped into each of its components, and part by part they are receiving a heavy amount of degreaser to get them looking semi decent.
Images to follow in the next few days when the garage gets a clean out

in short the plan is
a general rebuild, gaskets, bearings, cambelt, waterpump ect... along with
-flowed and rebuilt heads with the possibility of larger valves, titanium valve springs and retainers and a cam regrind
-forged pistons and rods
-custom exhaust manifolds supporting 2x GT2860R turbos (or maby not ball bearing depending on cost)
-acid washed block with rebored/honed bores
-remote oil filter and cooler from the block eliminating the need for that silly filter neck that hangs down.
-uratane engine mounts
-possibly something with the crank but unsure at this stage


so far all I have done is get all four urathane engine mounts from prothane usa. hopefully have the installation of them documented this weekend.
and i have been visiting all possible shops in chch to get them on the hunt for forged internals. both CHS and S.P.E.C are on the hunt for me will post prices as soon as i know them for any one intrested
and I have taken the factory manifolds to a laser cutters to get flanges made so i can weld up exhaust manifolds, pics will also be uploaded when i receive these back.

any opinions and ideas welcome.

[scott.mohekey]

Hmmm... could be interested in doing the same as you with one of my spare blocks. Might reduce costs a bit if we buy two of everything.

[Adam.Findlay]

well this build is going to take me a good year. due to funds. im keen to do the leg work on parts if you can come up with money to back bits up. as ive said above i have already got manifold plates made but have to go back to make the t28 flanges for the turbos so can ask for another set of manifold plates for you if you would like.
and i have already got a price from mitsi for cambelt, water pump idlers, tensioners, and gasket kit. thats the prices im gna try beat by shopping around.
i beleve shane (fully) also wants to get his heads flowed if we go in 3 for that could get a good price

[hedric15]

You can also try to pm fuel. He gave me a good deal on a cambelt kit. Local stores like repco n suprcheap are really expensive.

[scott.mohekey]

I'm in no hurry... just as money comes along really. I know we can get a lot of parts from partmaster at very good prices.

[scott.mohekey]

Oh, and at this stage I'd only be putting stock turbos on there, so don't need any flanges made.

[ILLEGAL]

best thing to do with the crank would be to get it nitrated by heat treatments. (not sure how to spell that)

[Adam.Findlay]

hmm where could i get the crank worked here in chch.
cool well ill flick fuel a pm and see what he can do. cos all the bits i need from mitsi added up to 1600 which is ridiculus

[scott.mohekey]

Can you put up an itemised list of that?

[hedric15]

hmm where could i get the crank worked here in chch.
cool well ill flick fuel a pm and see what he can do. cos all the bits i need from mitsi added up to 1600 which is ridiculus

If I'm not mistaken I got my kit for 420 and came with a gates belt. I think he ran out of gates n supplying original mitsi now for 440.

[taupodrifta]

you can get forged pistons and rods from RPW in auz but they not cheap. what ever happened to the people that were looking into if we could use evo forged pistons?

[Adam.Findlay]

evo ones are to big but gsr ones are the same bore, i think the deck height is different though, SPEC performacne here in chch is currently researching into and cross compatibility of internals for me, they seemed confident, because they said they use honda b16 rods in building 4AGE's

and for scott\

MISTUBISHI GENUINE PARTS excl GST
01 JCMD975559 Engine Gasket Kit 799.29
03 JCMD318814 Valve Timing Belt 216.14
04 JCMD308593 Timing Belt Adjuster 181.9
05 JCMD316826 Timing belt Pulley 56.19
06 JCMD179597 Timing Belt Pulley 65.97
07 U401/GWM-55A Water Pump Assembly 117.7

PS. dont forget to add gst to those prices. that was genuine from donnothornes down the road from kaynes work

[Adam.Findlay]

so far CHS here in chch have told me that they think we can use SR20det rods if we get custom pistons made, custom pistons coming in a an estimated 1400+ gst
am still waiting to hear back from SPEC. and redline performance were no help at all

[Fully]

Interesting post my maties.

I just had my block honed/both head decks milled and a deglazing.
$215 + gst from Mace Engineering.

Engine gasket set I think I can source for $500-$550 including.

So thats 5 rebuilds in different stages =)

[Adam.Findlay]

5 rebuilds?. your build scotts build and my recent endevour

hmm i may have to ask you kindly to source me a gasket set in the near future man.

and did you get your block acid dipped, as the one i have is pretty disgusting on the inside and has a whold lot of grit on it from it sitting in my garage

[scott.mohekey]

I forgot to respond to the list of timing belt parts. I believe partmaster has genuine pulleys and the hydraulic tension adjuster for less than mitsi. They don't do a genuine belt though.

[Fully]

5 rebuilds?. your build scotts build and my recent endevour

hmm i may have to ask you kindly to source me a gasket set in the near future man.

and did you get your block acid dipped, as the one i have is pretty disgusting on the inside and has a whold lot of grit on it from it sitting in my garage

You are forgetting Kayne and Toms builds.

Yes the block was acid bathed.
As long as there is no real rust inside the bores they should be all ok.
I will confirm the price of the seal kit when I get mine. Should be just after christmas now!

[Adam.Findlay]

@Fully: oh kaynes pretty much rebuilt a stock motor, and i dont know tom.
well if you wanna put me down for a seal kit if buying two at once makes it cheaper but if not ill leave it to a later date.

@Scott: yeah sounds god to me man i just went to mitsi to see what it was like. next time i have free time im going to try get better prices. as long as i get a good gasket kit and genuine cambelt and waterpump ill be happy.

[scott.mohekey]

I've not heard any reason to not use an after market water pump, and have used two so far with no problems.

[Nutter_John]

Adam just been throwing some figures into my turbo calculator and for a stock displacement vr4 using a 12 afr ( as your forging thats an ok figure to use , stock internals I'd use 11.2) and assuming you were going for a twin setup then the 2860 range of turbos all would have you well out of scope

basic figures to work from for 450 bhp atf mapped at 12afr are as follows

airflow required = 49.5 / number of turbos (24.75 llbs/min)
Manifold absolute pressure = 18.55 * number of turbos (absolute PSI)
Pressure ratio = 2.85 (assuming 2 psi drop from compressor to inlet manifold - intercooler and pipe work drop)

So on the 2860 compressor map you sit at point one at 7250 rpm and point two at 5000 rpm (as at 5000 rpm you only need 12.87 llbs per min )
40238

Hope that helps

[scott.mohekey]

So he should be looking at larger turbos that have their flow map over that line you've drawn?

[Nutter_John]

Yes and no , that line is purely based on the simple maths to calculate the values , for instance the VE is set at 92% at 7250 rpm and 98% at 5000 rpm - these are not real world values and ours maybe a lot less

take the gto which some figures were generated for full load as 91% at 2000 rpm, 95% at 3000 rpm, 93% at 4000 rpm, 90% at 5000 rpm, 81% at 6000 rpm, and 75% at 7000 rpm (from 3si)

now if we use those as the basis of the calcs we still need 302 cfm(23.1 llbs/min) to produce 225 bhp at 2 bar with a typical afr of 11.2 , this gives us a Pressure ratio of 2.94 which pushes even further away

Think the main point I'm trying to get accross is that there is a lot more to consider about the turbo selection than just selecting one cos it "should" work but looking at the td04-13g which Gowf had they seem to be a very good match to the VR4 engine

If we could work out the VE for the engine then we could plot some real world figures , for instance if the vr4 was 90% VE @ 7250 we would only need 1.5 bar to get 225 bhp froma PR of 2.4 , but at 75% VE we would need 2 bar for 225 bhp from a PR of 2.94 - this has a huge impact on the turbo selection .

[scott.mohekey]

This is something I've been meaning to get my head around, but obviously haven't. I'm guessing working out the VE of the engine would require measuring gas flow rates into and out of the engine?

[Nutter_John]

what we need to do is measure the VE of the engine at various points in the rev range ( 2000,3000, 4000 etc etc ) to do this all we need is to know the relationship between airflow single ( hz ) to CFM ( or we fit a seperate CFM meter in the inlet side ) . With this we can then calculate the exact values which help in working it out , we may have a very well design setup that allows greater than 100% ve (F1 cars can have as much as 117% ve )

for people thinking what the hell is VE , well it is the difference between what the engine can breather on paper versus what it does breath

so a 2.5 litre engine should be able to breath 2.5 litres of air , but becasue of loses due to the design of the inlet , exhaust etc we will get less , but as we are charing the air at nearly double normal pressure ( remember we are always at 1 bar ) this offsets some of the loses

[scott.mohekey]

Just thought I'd add that VE means volumetric efficiency. From http://www.installuniversity.com/install_university/installu_articles/volumetric_efficiency/ve_computation_9.012000.htm "Volumetric efficiency is the measurement of how close the actual volumetric flow rate is to the theoretical volumetric flow rate"

[Adam.Findlay]

hmm very intresting. in stating the VE I have planned to fully flow the heads and with custom exhaust mannys and possibly plenum modifications should this raise the VE?
the guys at turbo care here in chch told me they were making 600hp on a 2jz (yes i know its a 3l not a 2.5) with stock internals and head so with forged pistons running a leaner ratio and head work...

[Adam.Findlay]

also spec returned this thismorning

Supply forged rods & pistons 6A13.
(depending on exchange rate at time of order).
$2,782.61
PLEASE NOTE ESTIMATION ONLY;
Subtotal 2,782.61
TOTAL GST 15% 417.39
TOTAL NZD 3,200.00
thats including rings also
still waiting for a price on bearings though

[Nutter_John]

Anyything that imporves flow will have a good effect on VE

[Adam.Findlay]

i beleive its is wiseco pistons with pauter rods, IIRC this is the same set that the russians used

[Nutter_John]

rods and pistons do not effect the calculations , it's down to the displacement of the engine

[Adam.Findlay]

yip i know rods and pistons wont make a difference but i am posting up as much info on parts as i progress through this build

[bradc]

John, you say this: Manifold absolute pressure = 18.55 * number of turbos (absolute PSI)
Why is that?

[Adam.Findlay]

Hey john what is your opinion on this turbo
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT30/GT3071R_700382_3.htm
gt3071R
similar price and same external dimentions but bigger turbine and compressor wheels so more flow the higher rpm dot which you calculated before lies in garretts graph. the only worry for me is i wonder the lag with 2 of theese monsters

[Nutter_John]

Adam what is your total estimated horsepower on the new build , and where do you want the powerband to be ( mid range , high rpm ) what sort of boost are you looking to run

with these figures i can throw them into my calculator and come back with the numbers you need to plot agains the flow maps

[bradc]

gt3071r's will never spool! You'd be making boost above 5000rpm or so, and you'd need to rev all the way to 8500rpm to have a usable power band. Stick with GT2860R's

[Adam.Findlay]

im looking for around the 500 mark if possible. depending if the crank can handle it push the redline up a tad and a fair whack of boost (or what would be the point forging it)

you think brad?? its the same turbo as a gt2860rs just with a slighly bigger compressor wheel by my understanding (same compressor housing, core and turbine housing) when do you think the 2860's will come onto boost in theory, i read the thread on oz vr4 where the guy put 2x gt2560r's on his legnum and he said lag was barely more then factory, instead of being on full boost by 2250 it was 29-3000. which isnt to bad

[Nutter_John]

Adam ok will work out the figures to allow you to hit around 500 bhp with good mid range

[Adam.Findlay]

that would be much appreciated. i still want to make power but still street drivable. the engine thats in the car at the moment will be going into something else that will be the lag monster engine

[bradc]

My goal is 300kw ATW which is around 500HP or so at the engine, so similar to Adam. I want these ones http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT28/GT2860R_707160_7.htm

[Adam.Findlay]

as aparently the gt2860rs has better flow then the 60r any particular reason for choosing the 60r over the 60rs

[Nutter_John]

Adam it's not about the flow if you can't make the flow without being in stall city

over the next few days I will re-write my code to work online so that you can use it to play with numbers to you hearts content , but if you have a look at the garret turbo 103 tech on there website you will see what you need to do to work out flow patterns

[Adam.Findlay]

http://realstreetperformance.com/store/garrett-twin-gt2860rs-dual-ball-bearing-skyline-bolt-on-turbos-1764.html

that doesnt see, like a bad price for both turbos, and they are the ones you seem to think will be best brad?

[bradc]

Those are GT2860RS's and are designed for more power again. The ones I like will do around 500hp on a VR-4, I wouldn't go for bigger turbos unless you really want to aim for 550 or 600hp.

[Fully]

I am going for GTR 32 N1 turbos.

[Adam.Findlay]

shane when you get your engine running with the t04's you have please let me know what sort of lag you get

[Fully]

For sure Adam.
Going to use 1 3/4 inch pipe (ID) from each of the exhaust ports to a collector on the turbo flange.

[Adam.Findlay]

43546
well here are all my flanges that i have ready to make exhaust manifolds im just going to use pipe as close ID to the flange

[scott.mohekey]

What are the two on left and right for?

[Adam.Findlay]

inlet to the compressor housing and they are alluminium not stainless like the rest

[scott.mohekey]

Ah, I figured that was the case.

[low_vr4]

That aint a bad price at all for two turbos, would like to do a rebuild in the future too

[Ryan]

NZ$2600 ex shipping ~25kg... I imagine that one would have to pay duty on them too?

[Adam.Findlay]

yeah im hoping to not pay to much more then 3200 for turbos and then its another 3200 for forged pistons and rods but that is the basis for god hp numbers. I think the hardest part is going to be finding a way to strengthen the crank or get a billet one made

[scott.mohekey]

yeah im hoping to not pay to much more then 3200 for turbos and then its another 3200 for forged pistons and rods but that is the basis for god hp numbers. I think the hardest part is going to be finding a way to strengthen the crank or get a billet one made

I want god hp too! /Banana

[Fully]

43546
well here are all my flanges that i have ready to make exhaust manifolds im just going to use pipe as close ID to the flange

Were did you get them from?

Have you got a quote from STM (http://www.speedtechnz.com/)? For forged stuff (Speed Tech Motorsport)

[Adam.Findlay]

got the flanges made all custom from C&R laser cutters on francella street figured id get it all done there cos you cant buy 6a13tt manifold flanges off the shelf

na spec on st asaph gave me the quote on forged bits i may email stm tho

[Fully]

How much?

[Adam.Findlay]

posted earlier in this thread think the quote was 3200 at the time

[Adam.Findlay]

Small amount of progress but after yesterdays earthquake i had nothing to do today, so instead of standing around with my thumb up my a** I cleaned and re assembled my oil pump, next job is the rocker covers and cleaning out the thermostat housing.

45979459894598845987459864598545984459834598245981 4598045990

[Fully]

Pack it full of grease before you stick it back together =)

[Adam.Findlay]

yip that sta assembly grease stuff

[Fully]

Yes thats the stuff =)

[Adam.Findlay]

Bit of time spent in a sand blasting booth yesterday, got the rear rocker cover completly done and the thermostat housings,
also picked up a 6A12 non mivec FTO front rocker cover to make The new engine look a bit more intresting :)
and with the help of catalan he has given me the order form for cutom JE pistons.

46500465094650846507465064650146502465044650546503 46510

[scott.mohekey]

Chrome that **** up, yo!

[Adam.Findlay]

Chrome that **** up, yo!
You so crazy!!

na not a fan of the uber shiny look, plus i dont have the patience to polish it all up like shane has, al though his engine looks good!

[scott.mohekey]

Haha.. silver spray paint? senor tacky tack to the rescue!

[Adam.Findlay]

was thinking about painting the alloy part of the rocker cover white and masking off the "V6 DOHC 24VALVE" would just be a prick to keep clean.
kinda like this evo
http://www.performancecar.co.nz/articles/2011-mitsubishi-lancer-evo-vii-lap-dancer-157

[scott.mohekey]

Yeah, that would look nice.

[Adam.Findlay]

somewhat different to the evo red rocker cover

[Ryan]

Chrome that **** up, yo!


Chrome belongs on taps, not cars!

[scott.mohekey]

Chrome belongs on taps, not cars!

Hahaha, yeah I know. I was just joking.


somewhat different to the evo red rocker cover

Pink.. you know you want to.

[Adam.Findlay]

Chrome belongs on taps, not cars!

OHH hahaha i laughed at that one, much agreed


Hahaha, yeah I know. I was just joking.



Pink.. you know you want to.

na pinks to close to red, why not lime green?

[scott.mohekey]

To be honest, I like the white best. It'll match your car. That or black.

[Adam.Findlay]

yeah i was kidding about the greeen too lol sarcasim doesnt work to well on forum talk.
yeah either really well bead blasted and clear coated or white

[Gly]

get the cover powder coated, so easy to clean,
mine just wipe clean.

wont have heat or solvent issues like some paints do.
and its fairly cheap IMO

[Adam.Findlay]

yeah theres a powder coaters up the road from my house so was going to enquire there, by paint i meant "add colour to"

[Fully]

/HappyBD Happy birthday :beerchug:

[scott.mohekey]

Won't be much getting done on the engine today methinks.

[Adam.Findlay]

/HappyBD Happy birthday :beerchug:

cheers shane, no was in wellington for the weekend, big chillybin full of alcohol being my 21st and all

[aboo]

Happy birthday Adam. Have a great day.

[Mark 4]

Wish I could be 21 again :huh:

Congratulations young man :beerbang:

[MunkyWrench]

i really think you should consider these.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT28/GT2859R_707160_9.htm

when looking at turbo sizing refrain from gauging by the single CFM number or horsepower range that they are marketed by.
they are not ball park figures, they are more like national park figures - just too variable.

look at map width, height, efficiency islands and as nutter is counseling you to do - engine demand.
if your engine is not capable of consuming the flow your gonna need more boost (taller map, higher temps) or some really nice port and valve work.

the cfm number advertising turbos is often plucked from the right hand edge of the map - but you have to get there first. if not enough engine demand, you are stuck on the left side of the map surging or not even making enough to surge.

i looked at 466541 - 1(gt2560r). only because they are easy to get from nissans. map is too wide and not tall enough. also the turbine wheel may be restrictive being the gt25 not gt28 series.
739548 - 5 (gt2860rs) imo are worse in the compressor. better in the turbine. great for 2L 4 bangers tho -more engine demand, low temp rise in the compressor.

and 707160 - 9 (gt2860r -9)'s offer everything 707160 - 7 (gt2860r -7)'s have but more.

I think if you expect to flow 60lbs/min with that low a boost level (gt2860rs) you are looking at head work witchcraft.

dont forget the pressure ratio the turbo has to run is greater than your '(boost+ atmo) / atmo' number due to pressure loss in everything else and then some for altitude.

plenty of cars out with plain wrong turbos on them. would be very satisfying to get it right.

[Adam.Findlay]

yeah i get that. i will tackle that when i get there, the first and foremost issue is getting the bottom end built and then head work to support the rev range i wish to have. thankyou for your input though

[Adam.Findlay]

recently i have been talking to some head work and cam specialists, kennelly cams here in christchurch (run by the man who used to desgin cam profiles for kelfords) says he can regrind factory cams to an advertised duration @ 0.1mm lift of around 264 degrees with in the relm of 10.5m of lift for around the $600 mark.
this seems fantastic to me and alot cheaper then buying billet "HKS" grinds which are as far as i have seen 272 duration but measured at 0 lift, and the most lift I have seen on aftermarket cams if .343" or aproxx 8.5mm
along with this I Have compared 4g63t valve springs to 6A13TT ones..... They FIT !! the only issue i can see so far is i think the valve stem diameter in the 6A13 is narower then the 4G63T, however it is the same as 4G93T
when i can get my hands on a valve spring compressor i will test if 4g63T retainers and collets fit if not i will test the 4G93T ones. this could open a door to cheaper cam and valve train modifications.

[scott.mohekey]

You should do all your testing on my spare set of heads. I will let you use them for free if I get to keep the resultant awesome heads. Deal?

[Adam.Findlay]

I have my own spares thankyou very much, i just started another thread with the exact same stuff in it with an EOI for a group buy on cams and springs if your intresed

[scott.mohekey]

Awww :(

[Oblivion]

recently i have been talking to some head work and cam specialists, kennelly cams here in christchurch (run by the man who used to desgin cam profiles for kelfords) says he can regrind factory cams to an advertised duration @ 0.1mm lift of around 264 degrees with in the relm of 10.5m of lift for around the $600 mark.
this seems fantastic to me and alot cheaper then buying billet "HKS" grinds which are as far as i have seen 272 duration but measured at 0 lift, and the most lift I have seen on aftermarket cams if .343" or aproxx 8.5mm
along with this I Have compared 4g63t valve springs to 6A13TT ones..... They FIT !! the only issue i can see so far is i think the valve stem diameter in the 6A13 is narower then the 4G63T, however it is the same as 4G93T
when i can get my hands on a valve spring compressor i will test if 4g63T retainers and collets fit if not i will test the 4G93T ones. this could open a door to cheaper cam and valve train modifications.

Very interesting news and great info! Are there any advantages of using aftermarket cams rather than regrinding the stock ones then?

[Adam.Findlay]

Very interesting news and great info! Are there any advantages of using aftermarket cams rather than regrinding the stock ones then?
umm not that I know of, i will be going and having a more in depth conversation with the cam guy tomorow, hopefully to get a reccomended valve spring and retainer and the benifits of ground vs billet, if your are intrested i have another thread "cams, springs, revs and power" somewhere which is a EOI for a sort of group buy on cams and springs