PDA

View Full Version : Running on Alcohol...



Uray25
10-02-2011, 11:43 AM
Is it possible to have 2 mappings in the ECU, which you can switch ofcourse.

To lets say running your engine on Pump Fuel or Solely on Alcohol.
Would need bigger injectors ofcourse, but the main issue here, Is It Possible ?

Extra tank instead of the sparetire, new fuellines, some other small stuff to switch between the 2.

Just asking because i can make decent alcohol which costs about 10% what i pay now at the Pump.

Pastor of Muppets
10-02-2011, 12:27 PM
you can make alcohol????
that sounds like a club vr4 meet in the making!!!

miller
10-02-2011, 12:39 PM
shhhhhhh quick someone ban Gowf

Uray25
10-02-2011, 04:36 PM
Hush, still a work in progress... Need to finetune my distiller...

Need higher grade alcohol, and need a way to slow the process down, because now it will make more that i could burn in a week...
( it's good enough to run a car on, but a VR4 is not just a car... :), my 6.5Liter V8 runs fine on it, but no electronics on that one, far easier... )

jayp
10-02-2011, 05:28 PM
just out of interest is this strictly legal? ie, the government cant tax it, so i would think like everything else they cant tax they wouldn't like it?

gareth001
10-02-2011, 06:21 PM
I can think of two routes, one I have no idea if it would work...

Firstly upgrade your car ECU to something that supports two setups - I know the HKS f-con V-Pro does, but would get expensive, but I'm sure other piggy back/replacement ECU's would as well.

Secondly, the blue-sky method, get a second VR-4 ECU and split the wiring loom so it connects to both, but have them on a switch so you can select one or the other. Of course both methods you would have to have a way to switch over the fuelling as well as you have mentioned

Uray25
10-02-2011, 07:48 PM
Thought of Gareth's solution already, with 2 ECU's... The problem with aftermarket ECU's is mostly that they don't support auto's...

And no, if they cannot tax it it aint legal, that's why i want 2 fueltanks... :D So i can switch to petrol when needed, for say MOT's...

Turbo_Steve
10-02-2011, 10:00 PM
Whilst an aftermarket ECU won''t directly support an auto box, you can "frankenstein" an aftermarket ECU onto the factory one - I've done this with an Autronic before, leaving the factory ECU in place to run the mundane stuff like aircon and the auto etc and then just running the ignition and injector systems off the aftermarket ECU. What you DO lose doing this is the signal from the autobox to the ECU to back off the power for nice smoooooth shifts. I'm not sure what impact that would have on a VR4 gearbox - probably not much to be honest.

The alternative would be to fit something like an Emanage, which monitors the factory ECU outputs, and then Adds +10 or -10 to each one (or whatever). This piggyback method retains all the factory functionality, but allows you to "Overlay" a different map. You'll struggle to get to the "bleeding edge" as quickly, but you can get really good gains. The E Manage Ultimate does, I believe, support concurrent maps - the only catch is that I don't think you can switch them from an external input - it's a dipswitch or a laptop.


One option I had considered for an Aftermarket ECU was monitoring the signal lines that go to the dashboard LEDs - as far as I can tell, the LED changes slightly before the gear changes. You could build a relatively simple circuit that signals the ECU whenever the LED status changes, and your aftermarket ECU can react to this by trimming the torque.

I'd say the the e-manage setup is probably your best bet, though - you can simply disable the e-manage for normal fuel, and then have it add timing and remove fuel when running on alcohol. The faster flame front requires a significant increase in timing to meet the piston face at the correct time - I'm sure the E-manage gives you +30% or similar, which should be more than enough.

Uray25
10-02-2011, 10:16 PM
Will sort my Alcohol Quality out first, but was just curious about the opinion off all you guys...

jjayokocha
11-02-2011, 10:50 AM
Would the likes of an Emanage Ultimate not do the job then, its a piggyback ecu?

Catalan
11-02-2011, 09:52 PM
all possible when you drunk :D

Possible use, in Moscow was legnum with methanol injection 450hp, remapped stock ecu

I set methanol injection system, but still don't remap for this ECU.

i mean use it with usual fuel.

Shtiv
11-02-2011, 11:12 PM
Short answer is not yet, but people like Kenneth probably aren't far off having switchable maps

Uray25
12-02-2011, 11:16 AM
Ok, that would be awesome, Switchable Maps... Al the other small things i've thought over except the size and make of the replacement Injectors.

Should be Possible to use them for Both Fuels, and ofcourse able to be driven by the stock ECU.

Anyone got an Idea ?

Turbo_Steve
12-02-2011, 03:19 PM
Depends what flow rate you're after - what other mods you have? Unless you're fitting bigger turbos, there's no need for bigger injectors.

Catalan - how are you using the same ECU map for Meth and for regular fuel? The timing differences are huge! If you're relying on a remapped ECU for ethanol, and then the Knock control mechanism to pull the timing back on pump fuel, it's not going to do any cast components any good at all: every time you switch back to pump fuel it's got to knock and knock until the timing comes back? Unless you're relying on the lambda correction factors, but they don't affect timing to the best of my awareness?

I'm really interested to know how this was setup?

Uray25
12-02-2011, 05:54 PM
Got the Remapped ECU from here, New TRE Fuelpump, Bigger Intercooler just need the hardpiping now. Exhaust is on for next year.

If the stock injectors can cope with the increase in flow needed for alcohol, that's fine with me, less costs...

MarkSanne
12-02-2011, 08:11 PM
If this works ray... you'll need to uprate your production :)

Uray25
12-02-2011, 09:02 PM
Yeah, Yeah, i know...

Catalan
13-02-2011, 08:05 PM
Turbo_Steve,

we don't switch between fuel, we mix it, not have 2 map, only 1 map ( + 1 safe mode map), set once, and always use both fuel.
I don't hear anybody use here switcheble maps on stock ECU.

for control methanol injection we use methanol computer, set it once before set the main ecu.

usually use this kit

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AVM-30-3000/

swinks
13-02-2011, 10:33 PM
Recently I'm installing methanol kit as well.
Just like Vadim mentioned earlier, you don't need extra map for running methanol if you have so called stage 2 controller and any piggy back where you have safe mode map. Basically, it injects methanol base on boost and other 0-5V analog input (throttle body signal, MAF etc.). I decided to go for maf. Another feature is flow sensor. When detected no flow (methanol tank empty) controller can switch piggy ecu to safe mode by analog 0-5v output.
Also, methanol kit users forum says clear that in our application (engine etc.) max. mixture of methanol is 50%. Above that fluid is too flammable and burns uncontrolled.
BTW, I went for Coolingmist kit.

Louis
13-02-2011, 11:58 PM
The water and meth kits still require the car to run on petrol and the compliment it, and allow higher boost pressure and give higher octane rating. The original post is about FREE home made fuel so the car is much cheaper to run, as oppossed to buying fuel from a garage, (but being able to empty the tank and fill it with petrol at certain times! (or run two fuel tanks with a switch.
I am pretty sure you can have different maps when using MAP2 ECU, this is not an instant switch, but it would allow you to map for pump petrol, and a second map for home made alchohol fuel, so you can load either map when required :)

c0xxy
14-02-2011, 12:39 AM
yeah, map2 is 'two totally independent sets of tables and configuration parameters' switch-able via switch or thru software depending on how its setup

gareth001
14-02-2011, 11:03 AM
Can't an LPG ECU potentially be used? These gradually switch between petrol and LPG one injector at a time to give a progressive switch over. If you could get this to run alcohol instead this would probably work?

Turbo_Steve
14-02-2011, 10:26 PM
LPG ECU is basically another form of piggyback. No reason it couldn't be configured, I expect.

And yes, I took the original post to be using alcohol to replace petrol, not to compliment it.

I don't see why our engine couldn't run on pure alchohol with the right timings? Cams might present some difficulty........but it's very low compression, so pre-ignition (and uncontrolled burn) shouldn't really be too much of an issue?

Uray25
15-02-2011, 09:01 AM
Steve thought right, it is to replace petrol.

And it would be sweet if i could get this setup running.

gareth001
15-02-2011, 10:18 AM
Found this interesting, although it's based on a carborated engine: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_drane.html#ch3

I've finally worked out who buys Tesco value alcohol though, people who run their cars with it/Poms

Kenneth
15-02-2011, 10:31 PM
If I recall correctly, rule of thumb is that you need twice the volume of fuel flow for Alcohol as Petrol at the same air flow rate. So if you want to use standard injectors, you will basically halve the power potential. This should also result in a power drop from petrol as alcohol doesn't release as much energy when burnt (for the same volume). It was easy back in the days of Carburettors as a 40% increase in jet size pretty much took care of everything.

If you want to play around with engine management without any great investment, I would just get another standard ECU (so long as one if them is able to be flashed) and sit one in the glovebox so you can swap it out when necessary. This is how I test ECU mods and it works well, just the hassle of the 1 minute it takes to swap the ECUs.
Might also be a good idea to take a few litres of petrol in a can which you keep in the boot... just in case you are caught somewhere you can't get alcohol to fill up and need to run the tank dry before putting in petrol.

Turbo_Steve
15-02-2011, 11:32 PM
Ken, I was under the impression from everything I've read that the electronic ignition control allowed you to offset most of the power losses, as you could run a lot more timing when required - a lot of the power losses from alcohol are due to it's sensitivity to timing, which can't be pushed too far when it's fixed across the rev range / load, but with the improved flexibility of electronic control allows masses more advance where required.

I only know from setting up toluene / ethyl additives (never done a pure alc install) that timing is absolutely everything, and what goes for "full bore" is horrific for normal driving, and you end up fuelling a lot more to compensate.

Kenneth
16-02-2011, 04:53 AM
I am pretty sure you still use the fuel at a much higher rate than petrol. Because you can burn a lot more alcohol per combustion event, you can actually get more power... you have to be able to supply enough fuel though.
I am sure that a properly setup engine with engine management settings for alcohol will help greatly, however I am pretty sure you still require a significant amount more fuel usage to offset the energy output from alcohol being significantly lower than petrol.


/edit: From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel)
"... Ethanol (E100) consumption in an engine is approximately 51% higher than for gasoline since the energy per unit volume of ethanol is 34% lower than for gasoline.[22][23] However, the higher compression ratios in an ethanol-only engine allow for increased power output and better fuel economy than could be obtained with lower compression ratios.[24][25] In general, ethanol-only engines are tuned to give slightly better power and torque output than gasoline-powered engines. In flexible fuel vehicles, the lower compression ratio requires tunings that give the same output when using either gasoline or hydrated ethanol. For maximum use of ethanol's benefits, a much higher compression ratio should be used,[26] Current high compression neat ethanol engine designs are approximately 20-30% less fuel efficient than their gasoline-only counterparts."

Uray25
17-02-2011, 09:00 PM
Will continue work on my still in a few weeks... Will keep you all informed... Thx for the feedback until now...

Turbo_Steve
18-02-2011, 03:17 PM
Just had a random thought - Alcohol + GDI? :)

Uray25
18-02-2011, 11:05 PM
GDI, Nnooo !!!

I hate GDI...

Turbo_Steve
19-02-2011, 09:36 PM
Well, if what Ken is saying is correct (and it usually is :D ) then a GDI would run more efficiently, it would certainly coke up less (and there for be more reliable) and chuck out more power into the bargain. 2.4GDI knocks out some 150bhp IIRC...so we'd be talking about maybe 170bhp and that lovely low mpg cruise. Just food for thought.....

Kenneth
19-02-2011, 09:41 PM
I am pretty sure someone is doing direct injection with alcohol and petrol. From what I remember they use 2 fuel systems (from tanks to injectors) and inject the alcohol only under high load conditions which provides a very high octane rating. I can't remember if it was just the alcohol which was direct injected, or both.

Sounded pretty neat, but I would wonder about having twice the hardware to go wrong. One of the issues with the Mitsubishi GDI was that the complicated nature of it made it really hard to diagnose issues when it stopped working right. I had this issue with my first Galant which was a GDI. With the technology being around much longer now, it may be that the diagnosis is much better and the symptoms for various issues are better known... who knows? I do know that I won't be going back near GDI for some time :P