How do u recognize a down/broken turbo?

[NLduffyNL]

I think i might lost a turbo, but how can i check that?

Reason of thinking?
I've got a Tweaked ecu from John.
Since the beginning i was hearing the turbo's whistle. (could be coming because i got hard piping)
(Boost is 0.9/1.0 with peak of 1.1bar)

For 2 weeks ago i got a pressureleak and i fixed it. Since then i heard the Turbo's whistle a bit less and the car reacted a bit better. But i could still hear the turbo's whistle good

Now ive driven a few day's easy... and today i wanned to throttle a bit more.
Uhmm the car was'nt going that smooth/fast as it was before... I Took a look at the boost gauge and its going max. to 0.5bar

Now i thought right away: pressure leak... but ive searched today but i couldnt find one :S

Btw: Today was the first time that i noticed the turbo's didn't whistle anymore (it still does... but allmoste cant hear them anymore)

[Nick Mann]

It sounds like a control problem or a boost leak. The turbos usually show signs of wear by allowing oil through the seals so the car starts smoking. Most often this is shown under vacuum, so first indications are using low gear to hold you speed down a long hill. The car will smoke like a git then if your seals are going. For your turbos to get to the point that they aren't spinning enough to achieve the boost, you must have some astonishing wear on the bearings....

[NLduffyNL]

Ok, tomorrow i'll go drive a bit, going to a hill.. and i drive it down in 4th of 5th gear and dont use my gaspedal. I doing it right then?
And if the car is smoking then the oil seal from the turbo(s) needs replacement?

Isn't it normal that you hear the turbo's wistle more if u got a pressureleak? (because the last time the whistle was going a bit less when ive fixed the pressure leak)

[Nick Mann]

Some cars whistle more than others. I have never seen a correlation between good/bad cars and whistles!

4th or better 3rd, you want a nice high vacuum, revs around 2000 or higher, so the injectors aren't firing. Anything coming out of the exhaust isn't petrol at that point.

[NLduffyNL]

Ok thanks, thats clear, going to check that tomorrow!

[Mark 4]

I have had a whistle for some time. At the rolling road day Gareth suggested thet my dump valve might have been leaking so I adjusted it a bit and the whistle was still there. A couple of days ago I parked in a space which had quite a high kerb at the front, as I reversed out I ripped the front bumper off on the drivers side. Slightly embarassing.

While I was fixing that I noticed that there was an oily patch on one of my hard pipes and thaught that this was a sure sign of boost leak. I checked the hose clamps and they seemed pretty tight. Nevertheless I gave them a bit more just to be sure.

Whistle has not been heard since.

[TAR]

0.5 bar sounds like wastegate pressure, it may be a faulty boost solenoid?

:happy:

[adaxo]

Some cars whistle more than others. I have never seen a correlation between good/bad cars and whistles!

4th or better 3rd, you want a nice high vacuum, revs around 2000 or higher, so the injectors aren't firing. Anything coming out of the exhaust isn't petrol at that point.

So, slight whistle sound from turbo in VR4 does not indicate wearing of turbo and basically is nothing to worry about??
Asking because i was told by few car mechanics 'if you can hear turbo is going to die', but it was VAG group diesel engines in question.

[Nick Mann]

I have had turbos die on my car and there was no whistle. Just lots of smoke on overrun. Contrary to that I know of a car that has whistled for years but is till racking up the miles.

I'm not saying there is never a connection, but whistling in itself is no big concern from my point of view.

[NLduffyNL]

Ok, so weird, today i checked everything in the engine bay and it was all looking good.

Started the engine... went for a drive to the hill.... Huh? I got my boost back :S
A well, i did what nick said, just to try and no smoke at all.

Still weird why ive had 0.5 boost yesterday.. and today ive got 1.0/1.1 back :S

[NLduffyNL]

I'm kicking this one back up again.
The problems with the boost are getting worse.

First i had this a few (2 or 3) times in 1000km.
Now i got this every day! (on long distance but on short too)

Today ive checked the whole system again and only found a little leak, i fixed it, but didnt had any result on the boost. (no changes at all)

I got memoscan, i can read my ecu with that
It was giving me the following troubles that i cant delete:
(some might be given because i dont got 4wd and the tweaked ecu)

53: IG. SGNL 3
21: CLT TEMP. SNSR
23: CAM POS. SNSR
24: SPEED SNSR


The second time (15min later) i read the ecu again and this time i get:
32: BOOST SNSR
21: CLT TEMP. SNSR
23: CAM POS. SNSR

I keep seeeing a change between those readings (had them both several times on diffrent dates)

By the way, can someone tell me what this part is? I can turn that black "button" left/right but ive no idea what it is (in the middle of the first pic)
pic1 : http://www.mijnalbum.nl/GroteFoto-JVKPI8QR.jpg

43635
pic2 : http://www.mijnalbum.nl/GroteFoto-QFSCBZQG.jpg
43636

Oh and i got a printscreen from ASA (i dont have that programm but i had the printscr on my computer.
I like to know where those red marked this are going to. because i dont have the lowest one connected and i cant find out where that other one is going to.
Printscreen ASA : http://www.mijnalbum.nl/GroteFoto-QAX6VVR3.jpg
43637


Hope you guys can help me a bit further.

Cheers, Mark

[Nick Mann]

The photos are of the Fuel Pressure Regulator Solenoid. The Boost Solenoid is to the left in the same photos. On the boost solenoid, both pipes go to the same side of the solenoid body - on the fpr solenoid they are opposite sides.

[NLduffyNL]

by the way, when im checking the ECU manually (by reading the check engine light) It does not give any fault at all.
(so its possible that memoscan got it wrong ;) )

But still got the problem with the pressure thats way to low...

[KwS]

wouldnt a cam position sensor code throw the car into limp mode?

[NLduffyNL]

Your proberly right KwS, i dont think the ecu is giving me errors, i think memoscan isnt reliable

On the FPR i got the hoses connected good, im sure about that.
But im not sure about the hoses that ive got connected to the boost selenoid. (cant follow them easy)
I want to know where these go to so i can check that.

But that still doesnt declare how it comes that i dont got my boost anymore. (most of the times)

[apeman69]

I'd wager your turbos are OK and you have a boost leak in the small pipes of the boost control system.

After I had RPW downpipes fitted I noticed a pronounced increase in whistling. Even when gently starting from stand still I can now hear the turbos spooling up (and down).
I have had this whistling with my old turbos, which were replaced for reconditioned units, and with the recons.

I'd check and replace all the small vacuum hoses of the boost control system. There are at least 12 vacuum pipe connections including a couple of t-pieces. Many of the original pipes will have curly plastic shielding which could hide a problem. See the much-used diagram below where the boost control system is highlighted in red.

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j440/apeman69/R33%20indicators/Boosthosingdiagram.jpg

[NLduffyNL]

Thanks, ok going to search this week i think.
If i can get my hands on some new hoses i'll give it fresh new ones right away :)

[elnevio]

A lot of error-code scanning software is unreliable on these, as while we DO use an OBD-II port, the Mitsi diagnostics are not actually OBD-II-compliant.

With the manual check, were you also checking the other flashing lights, e.g. A/T N light (if automatic), TCL OFF and skiddy car lights, AYC lights, etc. for errors?

[NLduffyNL]

I've checked all the vacuuum hoses, they were all fine.
There is only 1 thing i saw, that is the vacuum hose that is going to the airfilter, isnt connected to anything. (Ive got an open air filter so i cant connect it to the filter)

There is my next question right away:
Is it possible that the MAF is reacting on the open air filter, giving it weird data and thats the reason that i dont got my full pressure.
I dont got the original filter when i bought this engine so i cant try if its over with the original one :(

[mattnz]

Just skimmed over the thread, so sorry if someone has asked, but have you got the expected vacuum reading (-20mmHg)?

When I had worn turbos I was getting full vacuum but only about 4psi, whereas when I had a boost leak I was getting lower than expected vacuum and boost.

[NLduffyNL]

Ok i converted mmhg to bar.
So you say it has to be -0.026 bar vacuum?

I dont know how i can see what vacuum i got.
But my boost gauge got -0.8 vacuum (600mmhg)
Thats just normal as far as i know.

[mattnz]

Whoops, meant -20inHg. So that sounds normal :)

[swinks]

You can have dump valve sticking. If it stuck open, then no boost building and you running on wastegate pressure.
BTW, have you got any sort of EBC? Then it may be disconnected or ebc ground gone/shorted from some time to time (happened to me once).

[NLduffyNL]

Np man ;)


@ swinks:
I dont think my dumpvalve is sticking. Ive got a hks ssqv
The sequence is good to hear (when i release my gas and ive no pressure and im in the -. you hear it breathe
And when im getting pressure you hear it psieff! when i release it... i dont hear anything weird when im just throttling)
I can check it but im pretty sure the problem aint there.

Nope i dont got a EBC, it doenst work on the tweaked ecu from NutterJohn.
Else that was an option indeed.


But how do you guys think about that about the snorkel/original filter?
Could that be causing this problem? or should i still have that boost but i would run badly?

[apeman69]

There is only 1 thing i saw, that is the vacuum hose that is going to the airfilter, isnt connected to anything. (Ive got an open air filter so i cant connect it to the filter)(
If I remember correctly there should be a vacuum pipe from the boost solenoid to the thick black rubber pipe connected to the air filter and not directly to the air filter itself (it's been a while since I looked at this area and I've been working on my other car). You say this isn't connected to anything: do you mean that one of the ports on the boost solenoid is not connected to anything?

[NLduffyNL]

Apeman your right
the one that needs to be conected to the airfilter (as far as the image says) isn't connected to anything.


Do you mean that "crow's feet" ? or something else? Ive got the openairfilter+adapter,maf, "crow's feet"
As far as i know you got on that crowsfeet: turbo 1, turbo 2, maf and 1 vent (where u can set your oilcatchcan between the engine and crowsfeet)

[apeman69]

Now you've got me all confused with this crow's feet stuff but I think I know what you mean. The MAF is attached to a big fat black bendy looking pipe which goes backwards and down forming a U shape back towards the front of the engine. This pipe is parallel to the thick boost pipe that connects to the inlet elbow. The boost solenoid/wastegate vacuum piping is low down between these two pipes. There is a nipple on the bendy (crow's feet?) pipe where it comes away from the MAF and back to the front of the engine (the lower portion of the MAF connecting pipe if you like). I'm sure the boost solenoid is connected to this and this is the location referred to in the boost piping diagram as 'to air filter' or whatever it says.
In the crappy picture I've taken you can just about see a blue line right in the centre of the picture. This blue bit is a small section of vacuum pipe on my car that has been used to blank off this nipple as I have an alternative boost solenoid connected up elsewhere. This is where you need to connect your missing pipe.
The pipe at the top of the picture is the thick boost pipe which connects to the Y pipe and inlet elbow, and the MAF is at the bottom of the picture. The picture was taken standing at the side of the right hand wing (from front of engine) or passenger side wing in the U.K. Hope this helps.
43684

[NLduffyNL]

Ok, tell me if im wrong.
But that vacuumhose is connected to the pipe that is between that fat black splitup rubber piece and the front turbo?

Because ive got the aloy piping so i dont got an nipple there.

[Nick Mann]

Yes. The pipe comes off the MAF and then turns down, splitting into two feeds, one for each turbo. The rocker cover breather pipe connects into the pipe at this junction. The front turbo feed comes through a flexible section into a hard section that is shaped to fit round the filter on the auto box. The boost solenoid waste pipe should connect into that flexible section. If yours is alloy then you can't connect it in there! It shouldn't be too hard to connect it in somewhere, but I wouldn't have thought it would be a huge problem if the boost solenoid waste pipe is venting to atmosphere?

[NLduffyNL]

Yea i dont know, im just asking it, because thats the only hose that isn't connected to anything
i'll guess everything there is just fine then with the hoses connected :S

[apeman69]

I know what you're saying Nick and if the car's running on wastegate pressure (0.5bar) then I'm suggesting he makes sure that all vacuum connections are sound before checking stuff like the boost solenoid as it must be some problem with boost control. Having the pipe to atmosphere will result in some already metered air not being fed back in. Small amount perhaps but this along with a non-standard air filter (pod?) could impact on dodgy running, couldn't it, albeit not such a dramatic boost decrease :)

[Nick Mann]

Possibly, Alan? Although how much air is lost through the boost solenoid I don't know. It can't be much, surely?

[apeman69]

I wouldn't have thought so either but it can't hurt to ensure the basic connections are good. He seems happy with all the others. If for example there's a blockage or kink in one of the vacuum lines then it venting to air could mask this... I think?
There's only vac pipes, boost solenoid and wastegate actuators to check in the whole system really plus the bigger pipes which I think have been checked already.
I think turbo failure has been ruled out so just a process of elimination.

Sent from my Huge Brain using MyFingers :)

[apeman69]

Perhaps next step is to test or swap the boost solenoid. Have you disconnected the pipes to this and checked that the nipples aren't cracked, blocked or broken? Did you remove each vac pipe and test them for damage and leaks? I had a tiny split in a vac pipe where it connected to one of the TCL solenoids. It was so small I didn't think it would cause a problem but replacing the pipe proved that it was the source of the problem. When checking these old thin pipes you really do need to be thorough and so make sure you only have to do it once.

Sent from my Huge Brain using MyFingers :)

[NLduffyNL]

I'm still waiting that they deliver my new vac hoses (There was is problem with my order)
So i hope ill get them this week.

I'll allready visually inspected the vac hoses and theyre looking good.
But if im going to losen them, i can better replace them so im 100% sure its ok.

Btw, today ive had my 1.0/1.1 bar again :P (Proberly 0.5 tomorrow haha)
So weird... a well, i think its the best that i'll wait with checking other things and first replace all the vac hoses.

[Wodjno]

I would say this is an Electronic intermitent failure. So probably edging towards a faulty Boost solenoid? This would explain 0.5bar 1 minute. And 1 bar the next. Maybe affected by heat?
The whistling thing is deffo a pipe somewhere defective or loose..

[Davezj]

I have just had a skim through this thread, and i have a couple of questions for the guy with the problem.

I am just checking to see if you really do have a problem or not.

1. Do you notice a big difference in performance when it goes form 0.5bar to 1.1bar (you should be able to feel a big difference on pull as the revs rise.)
2. Reason for question 1, can you rely on you boost gauge. Is just the gauge that is broken and giving unrelyable readings.

Friend of mine had a simillar problem only 0.5 bar on an analogue goost gauge but 1.0bar on an electronic boost gauge, but sometimes the analogue gauge would read correct (1.0bar).
Reason for fault,
Small piece of debris in the boost gauge pipe next to the inline restrictor, which would get pressed up to the inline restictor when boost pressure was applied and sucked away from the restrictor when vacuum was created, but the debris did not block the restrictor everytime, or block it completely.
It is a long shot but it might be worth checking, or just get another boost gauge connected to verify the the result.

[NLduffyNL]

Hi Davezj,
1: Yes i notice a big diffrence! (and big with BIG letters ;) )
2: question one answers it, gauge is fine :)

By thursday i'll get my new hoses, so im gonna try that :)

[NLduffyNL]

Ive received only 50% of my hoses so i didnt do anything to it.
I've got my boost back for 4weeks now.. still weird..

Only thing ive noticed is that the car smokes a bit when i release my throttle and brake (saw it in a little movie i made)
Then ive returned from an car-event, when i drove home a friend of mine drove behind me and he saw smoke coming out of the back.
(a little all the time) and when im throttling its becoming more. and when i switch gears u see a bit more smoke.

Colour of the smoke : Blue

So i'm guessing this will be the turboseals? (beacause there's no oil in the Coolingreservoir and its not drinking coolingliquid)
I can check this by taking off the Y pipe and look in to it if there is a lot of oil on one side? Right?
(ive taken off the Y-pipe for 6000km ago, then i found a lot of oil on the end of the Y-pipe, but thought that was because i didnt have any oilcatchcan)


Can someone tell me where i can order new one's so i can replace them.
(is it a lot of work by the way?, and is it smart to change both at 1 time or only the broken one? What does these seals cost?)


Thanks folks, Cheers, Mark

[NLduffyNL]

Ok, now im noticing that my car is using some oil (2 weeks ago the oil level was just a bit above min. and today ive checked it and it was just a bit under min.) (so i gonna refill a bit)

Something im remembering while typing this is : that somewhere in april i had 1 week that my oil light was on 40% of the time. but after a little drove it go off. (oil level was good)
a few days i drove to my work and it was ON when i started and shutted down. And when i was going back home, and started the engine the light didnt go back on...
(ive had that 3 days i think) And maybe 3 or 4 days that the light went on... and off after a while.


Today ive checked my Y-pipe: Where the pipe comes together i find pretty much oil on the back turbo side i find a bit oil and on the frontside a bit oil too.
(i dont know what is much and aint much?)

Ive checked the turbo bearings and they feeling good, minimum tolerance there.
On the inlet side of the turbo was (more) oil then on the outlet side (specially on the backturbo) (i think its from the "crankcase breather"?)

One thing im gonna try now is that if the car is running and its going blue again that i disconnect the breather from the airpipe to check if its gone then.

Someone any more idea's

[Beastlee]

Out of interest, I noticed on the CAPS diagram you posted that you have TCL and the plastic grey can on the bulkhead. These are known for splitting and allowing some boost to leak, have you checked it? I can post up a link or pic if you need me to show you what I mean.

BTW I always hear my turbos whistling, I put it down to the RPW downpipes, and they are very loud.

[NLduffyNL]

Beastlee i dont have TCL

[Beastlee]

Ah, OK. I was only going by the CAPS diagram you posted but hadn't remembered you had a VR2. /wall

[NLduffyNL]

We'll its been a long time ago.
But the problem was back this week since ive changed the vacuum hoses for silicone blue ones.

So i started to troubleshoot again... couldnt find anything in the hoses, even replaced back the old ones didnt make a diffrence.

Then someone asked me: Mark get losen those hoses at your wastegates.
So i did...

Boost went up and up, making a peak of 1.4/1.5bar and going slowly back a bit (didnt kept full throttle cause of the bumpy road so i dont know till how many pressure it went back), but its making more boost then it allways did (1.1 peak and 0.9/1.0)

my guess: wastegate sol/v is broken? (How can i be 100% this is broken?)

And i think i still got the restriction, im searching at the forum and this is the first time im reading about it.
Would it be usefull to remove that right away?

Cheers Mark

[Davezj]

just a comment about your smoking turbo's.

from your thread i can see you have checked the compressor side if the turbo's but it is more likely it is the exhaust side of the turbo that is leaking, and the extremely hot exhaust gas that is burning the oil as come into the exhaust side of the turbo housing and get blown out of the exhaust. the only real way to chack for this is to remove the down pipes and the turbo elbow and check to see if the exhaust wheel is burnt black and potentially wet oily, rather than the more health colour ,whitey brown.

[NLduffyNL]

Sorry, this thread isnt about the smoking turbo's anymore.
Only about the turbo pressure, but thanks anyways

Nobody?

[GalantOnly]

Any updates on this thread, Mark? Have the same symtoms. When cold, the boost is fine (1.0). 10 mins later, suddenly, it's only 0.5... And it stays like that untill the car gets cold again :angry:

[NLduffyNL]

we'll im not quite sure what was the problem of this.

I think i had replaced my vacuum hoses, including the one with the restrictor. i thought that was the problem