VR-4 Injectors????

[Marcel]

What kind of injectors do we have in our cars??? Does anyone know how many cc ???

Thanks,

markel

[Marcel]

When modifying our cars ,at what level of BHP we face bottlenecks and what are they.

1.I mean up to 500BHP-what original parts do we have to change/improve to be able to stay on that level.

2.Also when changing turbos to bigger ones, how do the injectors cope with that?

3.and when fitting a new injectors, what does the ECU think of that?

4.Can ECU still controll them or do I have to get somekind of injector controller or for example e-manage or sth?

I hope you have faced these problems and know the answers, because it would take eternity if i´m going to solve these problems by myself.

Thanks for anykind of info!!

PS. i will receive my VR4 next week and then it will take approx. 2 months to convert it to LHD, but during that time there is a lot of spare time to build the engine also.
Markel

[Marcel]

Hi,

1. when modifying our cars (more BHP) what are the bottlenecks we have to face at any stage from 280bhp to 500 bhp? I mean, what do i have to change/replace in the engine to stay up with 500 BHP? :D

2. What happens with the injectors if i change the turbos to bigger ones? :dozey:

3.What does the ECU think when I have changed the injectors, can it control them? :dozey:

4. If the ECU wont work with bigger injectors, what is the best way to control them(sth like e-manage or just injector controller is enough?)? :dozey:

5. At what BHP do engine/transmission parts fail/brake :sad3: during the way up to 500 BHP and what parts? :dozey:

I hope someone has done that or at least knows about the 6a13tt so much to give me answers to the questions. Otherwise i have a long way to try on different things! And it will take eternity to achieve my goal!

Thanks for anykind of technical info.

PS. My VR4 will be in Tallinn next week and after that it takes about 2 months to convert it to LHD(will post pictures of different stages of conversion)
During the conversion we have also time to modify the engine and prepare the engine to achieve 500BHP.This is my goal with the VR4. Help me to achieve it :)

Markel

[Marcel]

Markel

[Mante]

What kind of injectors do we have in our cars??? Does anyone know how many cc ???

Thanks,

markel

The stock injectors are 360cc

[Mante]

at 500whp your roughly changing everything..engine management, forged engine internals, injectors, fuel pump, possibly steal braided lines, stronger clutch possibly stage 3 or stage 4. As time goes on you will find out the stock vr4 equipment is only ment to be driven stock by an old lady with her kids in the back seat....Having fun is not allowed. Good luck with your project, Im enjoying my progress

[jerryd_33]

hi Marcel ,
the Auto / Tiptronic gear box in the VR4s` is supplied by Porsche. have read an article in a performance magazine of a new Porsche released ( sometime ago ) with a Factory upgrade kit pushing out " 490 BHP " . however if your car is the manual version then like mante says your whole clutch assembly needs to be changed
like mante says change all engine internals for superior quality / strenght for the ammount of power you are looking for .
changing the turbos for bigger ones sure you are guaranteed the to have some power gains but will not effect the injectors , as turbos only supply the high pressure air needed to give the desired BHP .
injectors , changing to bigger / larger capacity ones , the ECU will controll them . they are just electromechanical switches / solenoids , which open and close valves that let fuel to go past into the cylinders . but this also depends if you intend using the car for racing so a Performance ECU would be required and you will need to have the New ECU set up by / at some rolling road specialist . at this point you would have to change your fuel pump for a High Pressure High Capacity fuel pump .
what engine and gearbox parts can fail ? no idea . but i think it all depends on the type / quality of Lubricants used . also read somewhere on this site , it is adviseable to fit a performance oil cooler to the gearbox that to stay with the stock item fitted or part of the engine radiator . one other good point to remember / do is to ensure that the engine gets plenty of cooling ie bonnet vents .

[wirdy]

the Auto / Tiptronic gear box in the VR4s` is supplied by Porsche

I seem to remember this one was thrashed out a while ago Jerry - the consensus was that Mitsi make them in jpn under licence from the Porsche patent.

Interlec & bigdaveakers are into tiptronic chartered territory now with big power & no problems as yet ;) Empirically the rest of the drivetrain can handle the increased power (EVO's). With only the occasional report of driveshaft / differential failure.

[ako]

changing the turbos for bigger ones sure you are guaranteed the to have some power gains but will not effect the injectors , as turbos only supply the high pressure air needed to give the desired BHP .
injectors , changing to bigger / larger capacity ones , the ECU will controll them . they are just electromechanical switches / solenoids , which open and close valves that let fuel to go past into the cylinders . but this also depends if you intend using the car for racing so a Performance ECU would be required and you will need to have the New ECU set up by / at some rolling road specialist . at this point you would have to change your fuel pump for a High Pressure High Capacity fuel pump .
what engine and gearbox parts can fail ?


Eeerm... Theres a bit more to it than that.

If your aiming for a 500hp 6A13, be prepared to crack open that wallet, and leave it open for quite some time!

Injectors, if you throw in larger ones, you'll run very rich, ALL the time, unless you install either a piggyback fuel controller, or just go for full engine management. For 500hp, I don't think you'll manage it without a decent computer to control all your timing etc anyway. To answer the question - yes, the stock ecu will "run" them. No, the car won't be very driveable like this.

Turbos - fuelling has nothing to do with pressure. It has EVERYTHING to do with air volume - if you put larger turbos on and run them at the same psi as stock ones, youll be pushing more air into the engine, and running leaner.

The driveline - the VR4 driveline is the same (well, near enough, theres mounting differences etc) as the EVO of the corresponding year. The 7G runs an evo 1-3 driveline, the 8G runs an evo 4-6 driveline. These drivelines have proven themselves capable of 10 second passes, although they are in a car 300kgs lighter. AYC may give in at these power levels, however there are a lot of cases of them hanging on past it - depends on how "gentle" you are on them, and maintenance. Personally, I'd be going for a type-s (or is it type v?) VR4 which has an LSD in the first place as opposed to the heavier, and more fragile AYC diff. The gearbox itself is damn near bulletproof, its one thing mitsi can do right! Personally, if you're looking for a drag strip monster, I'd hunt down a manual. An auto box can cost you big time on the 1/4, especially in a small-ish capacity turbo car like this, once you take into account turbo spool-up times etc, plus you already have 4wd traction - why waste it?

The engine internals themselves are reputed to be good for 450hp before things start deciding they arent feeling loved enough. That said, I wouldn't go taking the chances - although this can be minimised with tuning that errs on the safe side of things. My 6A12 was (according to a drag calculator) putting out around 340hp, and survived no end of abuse for about a year, the thing spent a large part of its time on the "18psi, 7000rpm +" end of the scale, and still was no worse for the wear, no signs of impending death. The 6A1X series are a damn good engine, and has the potential to do good things.



Of course, you could always cheat and just buy a wet nitrous system :laugh:

[dickytim]

yep nitrous makes me wet as well :D

[valmes]

our injectors are 390 cc

[jerryd_33]

yo AKO and WIRDY , thanks for the info and correcting my knowledge of VR4s`

[Kenneth]

Turbos - fuelling has nothing to do with pressure. It has EVERYTHING to do with air volume - if you put larger turbos on and run them at the same psi as stock ones, youll be pushing more air into the engine, and running leaner.


Almost there...
The reason pressure builds up in the intake manifold (plenum chamber or whatever) is because the volume of air being supplied by the turbo compressor is GREATER than what the engine can breathe by itsself. of course increasing that pressure means more volume gets compressed into the cylinders... hence the effectiveness of increasing boost.

If you put bigger turbos on a standard intake and run the same boost pressure, you should get the same volume of air entering the cylinders. however the turbo will be able to keep enough air flowing to keep that pressure at higher RPM. this means that when you hit 7000RPM, you can still have good boost and not have the turbo about to blow up :)

However, if you were to open up your intakes so that the engine breathes better, you could get the same volume into the cylinders at a lower pressure.
If you were to run the standard turbos, the would run out of puff quicker and boost levels will drop at high rpm.


If im wrong, someone will no doubt correct me ;)

hehe, I better get back to work now...

[ako]

our injectors are 390 cc



I was under the impression that 6A13's run smaller, Mitsi GSR's (4G93T) run 390cc injectors, but hey, I've been proven wrong before with these things. Someone with a copy of CAPS please settle this argument :P Or maybe check the injector, I know my 6A12 ones had the size written on the side. I DO know the 6G72 in the GTO runs 360cc, and its a 3L engine.. Meh.

And the turbo thing... I dunno, its an argument I've never had answered properly. Put it this way, pushing 20psi out of a little TD025 is nowhere near the same volume of air as pushing 20psi through a nice big T88.. Food for thought. Hence why turbos are rated in cfm @ pick a pressure, so you can compare them. I.e (numbers are approx) a TD05 14B will push around 450CFM @ 15psi, a TD05 16G is more around the 500 range @ 15psi. Makes sense to me at least.

[Kenneth]

And the turbo thing... I dunno, its an argument I've never had answered properly. Put it this way, pushing 20psi out of a little TD025 is nowhere near the same volume of air as pushing 20psi through a nice big T88..

That all depends on what sort of space you are trying to push that volume of air into... try pushing it down a straw and there is no way that with 20PSI back pressure you are going to be flowing more with a T88 over a TD025.

There is a practical test you can do for this sort of problem (if you are so inclined) which should hopefully answer the argument for you.

Get 2 standard buckets from the supermaket (less than $1 last time I looked) and put a hole in the bottom of one. make it about 5-10mm in diameter.
suspend the bucket with the hole in it above the one that doesnt.

Get out the garden hose, put a fitting on the hose so that you can regulate the flow a bit.
turn the hose on and keep it on until the bucket with a hole in is full. dont let the bucket overflow though! (you could draw a line 2/3 of the way up the bucket...)
keep the bucket topped up and time how long it takes to fill the bucket underneath.

Repeat with the hose fitting letting through a greater volume. (eg turn the tap up or take off any fittings you have.)
Repeat the test.

You should find that the bucket underneath takes roughly the same time to fill... however you are turning the hose on and off more when you have it flowing more.

now repeat the above test after enlaging the hole in the top bucket... You might find it hard to keep the top bucket full because your hose doesn't flow enough water.

Ideal scenario is that with the enlaged hole you cannot keep the bucket full at lower than maximum water flow from the hose, but you can JUST keep it full at max flow.

Under that scenario, you should find the bottom bucket fills faster at max flow because the increased amount of water in the bucked increases pressure.

Due to the nature of fluid dynamics, water behaves prettymuch the same as air. just different mass.

You are right about using CFM to choose a turbo. thats because like the hole in the bucket, your engine consumes air at a certian rate. you have to exceed that rate to get boost. the faster you can exceed that rate, the quicker your boost will max out.


If anyone can see any flaws in this test, please shout out. If I can't justify it then I will try revise the test to make it fair.


Would have liked to be more detailed, but I should be doing work :P

[valmes]

Our stock injectors are 390 cc.
Remove any injector from your car (VR-4; 96 on) and you will be able to read it...

Seems like FTO guys are well ahead, in the game of getting more power out of 6a13 engine... even though they have a limited space and cannot use twin turbo setup and use FWD istead of 4WD... They go for single turbo with some good results - 400 BHP 600Nm.

[Marcel]

got a lot more info than requested, but its only good info.

Markel

[enigma]

Valmes - I am pretty sure the stock injectors have 360 stamped on them? I have one in my glove box so will take a look later!

[enigma]

I stand corrected! They are clearly stamped 390!

Cool that means I can go to 550cc with the emanage! :D

[valmes]

:-D I went to my car to take a look at my glovebox... :) (I also keep one injector in there)...

bigdaveakers - where are you going to order those 550 cc?
You bought your e-manage on e-bay, right? Can you recomend anyone that can sell and ship it internationally?

Anyone knows of any company that can manufacture custom manifolds for 6a13? To fit a different set of turbos...

[Marcel]

does anyone know, where do i can get forged internals for 6a13. I noticed this link about single turbo conversion:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dannyboyau/album?.dir=bb60&.src=ph

but i cant find any info on these forged pistons and conrod set and etc.

Also, isn´t the 3000gt VR4 internals the same as Galant VR4? Do you know the size of these internals(for Galant VR4)?

if anybody knows about prices and what is available, please post it here or to the right place :)

Markel

[valmes]

www.rpw.com.au - forged pistons for 6a13
81 bore 80,8 stroke (2498,2 cc)
6g72(DOHC Twin Turbo) is a different engine (used in 3000GT/Stealth/GTO).

[enigma]

Anyone knows of any company that can manufacture custom manifolds for 6a13? To fit a different set of turbos...

BDA fabrications could probably do this.......in fact probably will do this for VX!!! :D

[Rally205]

I see the logic in the "Bucket" experiment but by turning up the water flow on the hose you are not applying any more pressure to the volume of water in the bucket. If you were to apply pressure to the bucket by sealing the top and forcing air in it would indeed fill the other bucket faster.

This is what a turbo does. The bigger the turbo the more pressure and hence more volume. It doesn't matter what size the intake is if you can apply enough pressure to force the air through it. Hence the term "forced induction".

Of course opening up the intakes helps flow and reduces the need for a larger turbo as it can fill the cylinders to the same amount with less pressure.

Imagine a washing-up liquid bottle full of water. The harder you squeeze it the more it flows for the same size of hole in the end.

The down side to bigger turbos is increased lag. It takes a larger turbo longer to spool up and moves the point where the turbo comes into effect further up the rev range :sad3: You also quickly find the limits of the engine with higher boost as the cylinder pressures become so great it either blows the head gasket or destroys the internals :sad3:

I think thats right anyway :rolleyes5

[Marcel]

do you have forged pistons in your car and did u get them from rpw? what was the price?

[Nick Mann]

With the bucket example:

Boost pressure = header pressure.
Turbo flow = hosepipe flow.
Revs = size of hole in the bottom of the bucket.

Increased flow is not necessary for the same pressure. If pressure is increased, then you are forcing the water through the hole more quickly, so will need to increase the flow on the supply. Also, the higher the revs the more air you use (the bigger the hole) so supply flow is important then too. Thus a big turbo (large airflow) is only important for high pressure AND high revs. If you are not altering the pressure or the revs, then there is no need to uprate the turbos.

All this assumes that the current turbos have enough flow to cope with current boost and revs!

[valmes]

BDA fabrications could probably do this.......in fact probably will do this for VX!!!

:) Is there a price tag already attached to the set (everything to fit the turbos)?
... ummm... I guess you will fabricate manifolds only for turbos that are going to be used on project VX, right? So, what are they?

In any case if you can help with that, please contact me via e-mail: valmes@mail.ru

[Rally205]

I agree Nick :)

[Kenneth]

Yes, if you were to cap the top of the bucket, then the pressure build up would increase the flow out of the hole in the bottom.

but the reason that an open bucket was used as an example is because you have a wastegate!!!

once the pressure (boost) increases to a certian point, the wastegate opens (if it worked perfectly) and stops pressure building up.

Because of this, you essentially turn off ( or turn down ) your air flow, which is equivalent to turning off the hose.

Nick is right, except on one point ;)

The weight of the water in the bucket was supposed to be the boost pressure... equivalent to the pressure build up in the intake manifold.
Reason was that you can keep the water level in the bucket reasonably constant and so maintain a fair test without having to measure the hose pressure and regulate it.

[Nick Mann]

Header pressure was intended to refer to the weight of the water in the bucket. Sorry! I did write a much longer piece where I talked about the bucket overflowing and the wastegate, but the site crashed when I pressed the submit button and I couldn't be arsed to write it out again!

[Kenneth]

:-D sounds like me...

Except I was at work and needed to do some stuff before going home...

I was also going to go into the bucket overflowing, but I took it out when I realised that if you let the top bucket overflow, you would probably end up with it falling into the bucket beneath... screwing up any test.

I reckon cutting a large hole near the top and putting in an overflow pipe would be the way to go...

I should have mentioned wastegates and water level... but i was in a hurry and got a bit sidetracked :dozey:

[FTOLTD]

does anyone know, where do i can get forged internals for 6a13. I noticed this link about single turbo conversion:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dannyboyau/album?.dir=bb60&.src=ph

but i cant find any info on these forged pistons and conrod set and etc.

Also, isn´t the 3000gt VR4 internals the same as Galant VR4? Do you know the size of these internals(for Galant VR4)?

if anybody knows about prices and what is available, please post it here or to the right place :)

Markel

I can get them

[enigma]

I can get them

How much?

[FTOLTD]

i will have to check the prices mine cost over 4000 AUD, custom made

[-LegnumVR4-]

I stand corrected! They are clearly stamped 390!

Cool that means I can go to 550cc with the emanage! :D

Whats the colour of the hat on the injector and the letters and/or numbers stamped on them? Are they top feed or side?

If anyone can find what size injectors the CM5a Lancer GSR used, you'd know what the 6a13 is using as a friend has crossmatch their part number.

Edit:
Hmm, apparantly the late gsr's used 390's, part number CDH390-733961G, grey in colour, made by Bosch?