Innovate LC1 problem.

[Mark 4]

I’ve been having trouble with my wideband and I think it may have something to do with a connector I have fitted.

A couple of weeks ago I had to take the downpipes off to weld in a new flexy. The sensor did not want to be unscrewed and the plug inside the car does not fit through the hole in the floor.

So I cut the wire, welded the flexy and fitted a small 6 way connector to the sensor. This can be poked up through the hole in the floor and then plugged into the mating connector that I fitted to the other end.

Tinning the wire took a hell of a lot of heat so I assume that the type of wire is not standard and by fitting this plug I may have caused it to play up.

Can anyone advise me ?

[Wodjno]

I’ve been having trouble with my wideband and I think it may have something to do with a connector I have fitted.

A couple of weeks ago I had to take the downpipes off to weld in a new flexy. The sensor did not want to be unscrewed and the plug inside the car does not fit through the hole in the floor.

So I cut the wire, welded the flexy and fitted a small 6 way connector to the sensor. This can be poked up through the hole in the floor and then plugged into the mating connector that I fitted to the other end.

Tinning the wire took a hell of a lot of heat so I assume that the type of wire is not standard and by fitting this plug I may have caused it to play up.

Can anyone advise me ?
The wire and connectors you have used has probably altered the resistance and thus possibly causing the issue.
I had to cut my sensor off once. But i just resoldered the OE Sensor wires back together again..

[swinks]

What are the symptoms Mark?
If reading unstable, and over the scale then 90% sensor buggered.
Anyway, if needed I have spare LC-1 controller.
IIRC sensor plug (black which is going to controller) will fit thru floor hole, you just need to take rubber grommet, do bigger hole in grommet to slide thru plug, and should go.

[swinks]

I had to cut my sensor off once. But i just resoldered the OE Sensor wires back together again..
But Glenn..., this sensor with soldered wires didn't last long :anxious:

[Mark 4]

That may be it Glenn, you think if I splice it back together and solder it it will be OK.

You sure about that Tomasz, I couldn't get the bugger through.

[swinks]

You sure about that Tomasz, I couldn't get the bugger through.
Positive.
I got two sensors through that hole, stock one and wideband (running both) using one grommet with enlarged centre hole. Both plugs went thru, just try from underneath car, and just black plug, not a whole sensor.

Wouldn't recommend soldering tho. Mine previous sensor gone buggered because of this.

[Mark 4]

Does your plug look like this Tomasz ?

[foxdie]

You can get a bosch wideband o2 sensor through the hole if you either a). shave 1-2mm off the hole itself, or b). shave 1.2mm off the "nut" part of the o2 sensor (won't damage it but will void the warranty)

[Mark 4]

Are they readily available Jason and do we know how to wire them up ?

[foxdie]

Sorry I think you misunderstood me there mate, the o2 sensor that comes with the LC-1 is made by bosch, that's the one I'm talking about :)

[Mark 4]

Ah, OK. What do you think of soldering the wires ? Glenn and Tomasz seem to disagree.

[swinks]

Mark... I did have a sensor from Glenn, previously soldered. Anyway, readings were wrong, after year when I did update firmware in LC-1, sensor had gone. Then I took me 2 months to figure out what went wrong (Innovate forum searching, etc.). Also I bought new LC-1 unnecessary. Well, anyway there is big NO - NO in a Innovate forum about soldering, cutting etc wires.

Due to getting through the floor. I can't remeber, but maybe I did sensor thru hole. Paul (psbarham) had seen this, there was no problem whatsoever with getting even two sensors, hole in a floor is big enough (well, at least in PFL vr4 :happy:)

[Wodjno]

The 1 i have in the car now is soldered.. No issues with it...

[Mark 4]

OK, I'm going to solder it and get a new one ordered. Anyone know a UK supplier ?

[Wodjno]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/INNOVATE-MOTORSPORT-BOSCH-LSU-4-2-WIDEBAND-O2-SENSOR-/270785571055?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3f0c13e8ef

http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=169

[TAR]

I had an LC1 fitted to my car and it had been joined twice, it still worked perfectly.

:happy:

[Mark 4]

Thanks for the input and assistance chaps.

[Mark 4]

Update.

I soldered the wires but it still played up. New sensor arrived yesterday so I fitted it last night (sensor through hole).

AFR at tickover is fine but it is going rich at fast idle. I just spoke to GOWF and he reckons that the simulated narrowband output from the LC1 is wrong. The manual says that it is yellow wire, 1.1v = 14 AFR and 0.1v = 15 AFR.

Anyone know if this is correct or not or can shed any further light on this.

[apeman69]

May be worthwhile checking that the voltage range for the narrowband emulation is set correctly via the software, if you haven't checked already, if just to rule this out. I'm assuming it's programmable and you don't have some weird tuning problem or other fault that means the wb is correct.
Did it definitely start after messing with the wiring or did you just notice it then because you were aware of what you'd done and being more likely to notice?

Sent from my Huge Brain using MyFingers :)

[Mark 4]

TBH Alan, I "think" it did it after messing with the wiring but I can't be sure.

I haven't looked at the software because I assumed it would sort itself to correct setting when I did the free air calibration. I'll take a look at that now.

[Mark 4]

Right, I'm in the car and I have the LM programmer open. The input is 0.1v to 1v I think I can pretty much program the output to whatever I like within upper and lower limits.

What should I be asking it to send to the ECU ?

[apeman69]

So when you say it's rich on fast idle is it still within the range that it's set at in the software? i.e. is the emulation doing what it should given how it's currently set in the software?

Sent from my Huge Brain using MyFingers :)

[Mark 4]

Dunno Alan, you've lost me.

[apeman69]

What does it say for the output bit that you can change?

Sent from my Huge Brain using MyFingers :)

[Mark 4]

It is currently set to default which is 1.099 volt at AFR 14.08 and 0.103 volt at AFR 15.01

[apeman69]

In the advanced settings do you have it set to 'Response Speed: instant'?
It's possible that this is too fast for the ECU but I don't know for definite as I don't have the Innovate wb.
Perhaps reduce the response speed and check it again with your fast idle test.

On the Analog out 1 tab, if you change it from 'use lambda' to 'use air-fuel ratio' then you can program it a bit easier and, effectively, restrict the range of the narrowband emulated signal sent to the ECU.
The original narrowband bounces about and tries to average 0.45 volts. This is where you need to be getting 14.7 AFR or whatever you want your 'cruise' value to be.
If you set the analog out 1 to between 14.0 and 15.0 AFR, for example, then you could repeat your fast idle test and the AFR shouldn't go outside of this range (you said it was rich before but how rich is 'rich'? Did you note the AFR? What I'm suggesting is setting the limits of the analog 1 out quite restrictive to ensure that it's doing what it should do. Each engine is different and there is no 'one range fits all' for emulating a narrowband sensor I'm afraid although the narrowband sensors all do the same job. Output 1 is only simulating the narrowband sensor's output so, as long as it's within a sensible range, it should be OK if it's working properly.
If I were to program it I'd aim for 14-15.5 AFR range with a target AFR of maybe 15.2 for a safe bit of extra fuel economy. You'd need to log it afterwards to make sure there are no problems and perhaps tweak it a bit to be thorough.

Maybe someone with this controller fitted and working correctly could post their settings for comparison though I imagine most will just use the factory presets.

[Mark 4]

That's very helpful Alan, thanks.

I'll have a fiddle with it in the morning.

Never too old to learn.

[TAR]

Check the wires which you have grounded (blue white & green); they must be connected to the same ground point but ideally not together i.e. under the same screw or bolt. Also it may be that you have a different potentials at these points, check out section 7.8 of the manual for further info.

:happy:

[Mark 4]

Had a bit of a play and it's sitting at 14.2. Tried changing a few things very slightly but it still just sits there.

Earths are all good Tim.

[apeman69]

I assume you have changed the AFR range and moved the switch point to 14.2
Is that 14.2 the 'rich' you were referring to? If so then I wouldn't worry about it. If it was 13s then fair enough and do something. Mine's between 14.4 and 14.6 generally but it's got tuned piggyback. Did you change the update speed? I guess if it's set too slow you'll get static readings on the gauge but in reality it should be hovering around whatever you've set it to, give or take a couple of tenths. Or you've set the range too narrow. If you have programmed it to hit 14.2 then set the AFR range to whatever you want to, make sure it's reading as required when in closed loop and job done.

Sent from my Huge Brain using MyFingers :)

[Mark 4]

Looks like I may have an issue with the wiring. I have a switch in the simulated narrowband line and it looks like that may be causing some issues. Will bypass it tomorrow and see what happens.

[apeman69]

Why would you have a switch on this wire? Surely you either run both O2 sensors (NB & WB) and use the original NB for the ECU signal OR you run the WB sensor on it's own which will then need to emulate the NB signal. In either scenario when would you need to switch on or off the wideband's narrowband emulation?
As I'm a bit perplexed by this, what was your reasoning for putting a switch in this wire?

[Beastlee]

Mark/Alan, for info:

Mine is set for 15.2 so the Analogue 1 is set to 1.099V for AFR 14.58 and 0.103V for 15.52. Analogue 2 is at factory default. Response is set to instant.

This configuation has been perfect for me for the last 18 months but I had the opposite problem as of Wednesday, idle is 10 but the rest of the time it's as normal.

[apeman69]

Thanks for the info. The problem with programming them is that the ECUs and O2 sensors on different types of cars expect different voltages for optimum running. Every narrowband simulation will be a generic best fit to cover most setups. The only way to get some form of accurate settings for the simulation is to log your original sensor's output and program your wb accordingly. In reality very few people will do this.
I have logged it, by chance, on a number of Evoscan runs and my O2 voltage has never (from the logs) been outside the range 0.02 to 0.976
Now I'm not saying that this is the optimal or absolute range of our ECU/O2 setup but just what I've observed with my car.
There has to be an element of trial and error with the programming of the wb to get to some stable AFR readings as, if the voltage that the simulation is feeding to the ECU is not quite in accordance with the ECUs expected voltage then the ECU will be a bit 'annoyed' in terms of it just doing what it expects to.
Does anyone know if the O2 sensor voltages are stored in a look up table or such within the ECU. If so and we could get these values then that would be useful if only as some starting reference for programming wb sims?
I haven't searched for it so apologies if it's already on here somewhere.

Sent from my Huge Brain using MyFingers :)

[Beastlee]

Alan, you make a good point! I assumed that as nobody has ever recommended a change in narrowband output that the stock was a 'standard' setting.
I have my stock O2 sensor in a bag somewhere and that may yet go back in. If it does I'll log via Evoscan and feed the info back.