Connection between AT, AYC and ABS

[Reconstructor]

Hi all. This is My first post on this forum. :) Hope My topic is not discussed, at least not from this point of view.
Got My VR4 earlier this year from UK. It have clubvr4 sticker already, from one of previous owners. :) It was somewhat cheap, so I expected some problems, but not all of them. :(
So, I started to revive it bit by bit. First of all, I have to fight 2 most important issues - AT & AYC. I was aware that most VR4s for sale have AYC pump dead, but was ensured form local specialists that it can be rebuilded, with no need to buy new one. So, My AYC is dead. Red light is ON, green bars are OFF. Initially, when engine is started, red light is off. And it stays this way, until wheels do even minimal revolution, then it turns ON and AYC not working. However, on hard braking, when ABS is engaged, red light goes OFF and stays this way, again until wheels not spinning. The diagnostics shows difference between differential input and ABS sensors. However, no ANY error code is recorded, which is strange.
So, can be it ABS sensors reason for such AYC behavior?
Second problem, of course, is AT. The gear engagement work with some lag of about 1 second after signal from ECU. I can see the green gear indicator on instrument cluster moving far ahead from actual gear engagement. The main suspects in this case are the valve block and ECU. However, My friend, which is really Mitsubishi expert, told me that it is possible to have such AT behavior because of incorrect function of the rear differential. I didn't quite well understand his explanations, but he insisted this is a mechanical issue. Again, no any error code is recorded.
I will be grateful for any thoughts about My problems and possible mechanical or electrical connections of issues between AT, AYC and ABS.

[chris g]

Welcome

I cannot be helpful about your problems but it is NOT true that most VR-4's for sale have a dead AYC pump...

Many that have been for sale on this site at least, have had a working AYC pump

[miller]

Welcome aboard ClubVR4. Someone more knowledgable than me will be along but first things first when was the ATF fluid last changed? Old fluid can make the box lazy and clunky!

Anywyas, any pics of the car, we may or may not recognise it!

Cheers

Mike

[leemharris]

Hi im having the same problems with my auto box (lumpy and slow gear changes). im 90% sure its the ATF fluid causing this, i'll be changing my fluid in a week or two once i get a new radiator (my radiators got the split in the plastic). anyway i'll let you know if this sorts the problem out, fingers crossed.

[dave-at-home]

Hi all. This is My first post on this forum. :) Hope My topic is not discussed, at least not from this point of view.
Got My VR4 earlier this year from UK. It have clubvr4 sticker already, from one of previous owners. :) It was somewhat cheap, so I expected some problems, but not all of them. :(
So, I started to revive it bit by bit. First of all, I have to fight 2 most important issues - AT & AYC. I was aware that most VR4s for sale have AYC pump dead, but was ensured form local specialists that it can be rebuilded, with no need to buy new one. So, My AYC is dead. Red light is ON, green bars are OFF. Initially, when engine is started, red light is off. And it stays this way, until wheels do even minimal revolution, then it turns ON and AYC not working. However, on hard braking, when ABS is engaged, red light goes OFF and stays this way, again until wheels not spinning. The diagnostics shows difference between differential input and ABS sensors. However, no ANY error code is recorded, which is strange.
So, can be it ABS sensors reason for such AYC behavior?
Second problem, of course, is AT. The gear engagement work with some lag of about 1 second after signal from ECU. I can see the green gear indicator on instrument cluster moving far ahead from actual gear engagement. The main suspects in this case are the valve block and ECU. However, My friend, which is really Mitsubishi expert, told me that it is possible to have such AT behavior because of incorrect function of the rear differential. I didn't quite well understand his explanations, but he insisted this is a mechanical issue. Again, no any error code is recorded.
I will be grateful for any thoughts about My problems and possible mechanical or electrical connections of issues between AT, AYC and ABS.

"I was aware that most VR4s for sale have AYC pump dead".

How to win friends and influence people.

[Reconstructor]

Welcome

I cannot be helpful about your problems but it is NOT true that most VR-4's for sale have a dead AYC pump...

Many that have been for sale on this site at least, have had a working AYC pump

My VR4 was NOT bought from this site. It just have stickers from previous owner(s), which guided me here.

[Reconstructor]

Welcome aboard ClubVR4. Someone more knowledgable than me will be along but first things first when was the ATF fluid last changed? Old fluid can make the box lazy and clunky!

Anywyas, any pics of the car, we may or may not recognise it!

Cheers

Mike

Hi, Mike
Pictures will be posted as soon as possible. Car is not currently in My garage to take some. It is pearl-white '01 Type-S edition with Recaro seats.
Anyway, ATF was changed with Motul ATF. My first desire was to use Dia Queen ATF-SPIII, but was convinced that Motul Dexron III is better. There was no change in AT behavior.

[horndog]

Hi, Mike
Pictures will be posted as soon as possible. Car is not currently in My garage to take some. It is pearl-white '01 Type-S edition with Recaro seats.
Anyway, ATF was changed with Motul ATF. My first desire was to use Dia Queen ATF-SPIII, but was convinced that Motul Dexron III is better. There was no change in AT behavior.

Hi,
Dextron is not recommended for our gearboxes, checkout post #5 in the thread below
http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?10125-When-an-ATF-is-not-just-an-ATF

I'm not saying thats the problem with your box, but it could contribute

[Subaru ETA]

Dextron III is not better the SPIII. you need to get that out of it asap. These trans NEED to have SPIII fluid in them.

[Reconstructor]

Hi,
Dextron is not recommended for our gearboxes, checkout post #5 in the thread below
http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?10125-When-an-ATF-is-not-just-an-ATF

I'm not saying thats the problem with your box, but it could contribute


From this post:

You'll also notice with Dexron that the gearchanges are firmer than normal
Well, I don't feel such thing. However, for now it is a big problem for Me to know what is normal. :) Today, for example, I heard opinion, that it is completely normal to have this 1 second lag between gear changes.

[Confused]

To echo the above, Dexron III is NOT suitable for these gearboxes, and if has been running for prolonged periods with this fluid, can damage the gearbox.

You need to have SP-III fluid, either Mitsubishi's own, from Hyundai, both of which are of the correct specifications, or a universal fluid which state SP-III compatibility (such as Amsoil Universal ATF)

[Reconstructor]

Well, gearbox seems to be OK, after the oil change. The old oil was dark brown with just slight reddish shade when you look at it against the light. :)
The issue now is AYC. The pump assembly was heavily covered by rust when we removed it. Unfortunately, on attempt to remove harness from one of the valves, it's body just broke apart, it was so much weaked bu the rust. So, i'm about to get new AYC pump assembly, will report back when it is installed.

[Reconstructor]

Just forgot another thing: please, tell me exactly what oil is most suitable for AYC clutch pack, for differential and for transfer box. Thanks.

[Nutter_John]

Grigory , Can I suggest that you try the search feature of the website as the what fuild is answered 100's times

you will also then be able to read lots of different peoples views

[Reconstructor]

To avoid flooding with new threads will continue to use this one.
So, I had received new pump (thanks to kiteman) and recently installed it. However, now I've got error code 82 ayc pump relay. Inspection shows that the rust was penetrated inside the relay and it clearly needs replacement. Unfortunately, there is no any electrical-related information printed on cover of this relay. Please, can anyone tell me the current rate of this relay and, if possible, the resistance of the coil. Thanks.

[Nutter_John]

not sure what the resisitance is but it is a 60 amp relay as that is what the fuse for that line is rated at

[Reconstructor]

OK, thanks, does somebody know will different coil resistance will affect ECU diagnostics?

[Nutter_John]

not unless your grossly out with the resistance of the coil and it causes it to draw too much current from the ecu

[Reconstructor]

OK, thanks again John. Just ordered 80A relay with 80R coil resistance, hope it will do the job.

[Davezj]

Do yourself a favour and take the advice you have been given and change your ATF to a recommended type. You will regret not changing it in a few thousand mile when your auto box probably fails.

By the way, hi and welcome to the club.
No one on here will knowingly give you bad advice, and if they do they will be corrected soon enough.

[Louis]

Check ebay for ayc relay as there are quite a few being broken for parts at the moment, you should be able to pick one up, or put uup a WTB (want to buy) post in the for sale and wanted section on this site, and someone will sell you one.
The fluid you have used is incorrect and will contaminate the clutch packs in the autobox, you should drain and refill with correct Diaqueen SPIII or Amsoil synthetic ATF fluid both are recommended. (some auto boxes require a fluid that allows slipage, others require a fluid that requires friction, using the wrong type will cause slipage and slow shifts etc).
A faulty abs sensor will also show problems on ASC, TCL, as well as ABS lights, as the systems are interlinked.
I would not say that AT and AYC were linked, but all your issues are fixable, good luck :)

[Reconstructor]

I will change the fluid for sure, it's just not the priority now. I want all systems functional and ready to go. I'm not driving this car anyway, since it is a RHD. After everything is OK, the conversion to LHD procedure will start, along with many other works. It will keep me busy all winter long. I hope the monster will be ready for race at the summer time. :)
The relays (i ordered 2 of them) will arrive tomorrow, they are 80A rated and I hope they will do the work. Thanks everybody for advices.

[Reconstructor]

Just an update from today. Had a lot of fun. :) Replaced the relay. It stopped to issue "pump relay" and started to issue "82. pump fail". The reason for that is because the old rusted relay had shortened coil (less than 6R => more than 2A), which caused damage to output stage in the ECU, so the relay simply had no commutation. So, I just manually powered-up the pump, it started to "bzzzz" and AYC, finally, started to work. However, after driving few miles, the red light of death lit again. :veryangry I really hope it is something stupid, otherwise i will go crazy. I plan to make a controller for the pump relay, which will start the pump few seconds after engine is started. I hope this is the logic of the stock ECU.
Just to mention few things I noticed today, it may be useful for someone. The resistance of the pump is 1R, which gives a current rating of about 13-14A, which in turn means, that the AYC pump relay can be replaced with trivial automotive 40A relay. I did a huge overkill with that 80A relay. :D After relay is replaced, the error code for it must be cleared, otherwise ECU will not go further and will not try to start the pump. I didn't noticed any spark suppressing capacitor between relay contacts, so I plan to install one.
That is all for today, next week will have more stable results, I hope.