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elnevio
07-01-2012, 10:27 PM
Time for a story, kiddies! Hope you are sitting comfortably...


Once upon a time, there was a Trigger Mauve VR-4, that was running lovely.

One day, it developed a slight stutter. The stutter went away briefly. Then suddenly reappeared as a smacking great loud misfire! :lipseal

You could hear the misfire in the engine bay, and it sounded like it was coming from the top of the engine at the front. Given the very bad idle and the sound from the engine, it was as if one of the spark plugs had been removed, and the plug well left open for the compressed mixture to escape through an alternative route..


The long and the short of it, today was my first opportunity to get the engine cover off and see if anything stood out.

So, of came the Y-pipe and engine cover, and I was presented with this view:

50535

As can be seen, there was 'wetness' in the general region of the spark plug wells, and also to the side of the oil filler cap. This wetness smelled a bit 'fuelly'.

A closer look around the middle coil pack revealed some odd bits, looking distinctly like they shouldn't be there:

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Further investigation, and removal, revealed this collection of items:

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That is a coil pack and a spark plug that are not in the same shape that I last left them in!

Here is the insulator end of the plug:

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The lead connector appears to be absent!

Oh, there it is!

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And what's that?!

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I assume it's a bit from the coil pack, although it looks about the same shape and size as a watch strap pin.

Here's part of the coil pack connector core:

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And here is the business end of the spark plug:

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Oh, it is suspiciously absent! I wonder where that went...

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All four or five inches of the plug connector part of the coil pack has excused itself!

As you can see, there are some bits of it in the pictures, most of which had blown out of the plug well and while some had remained near the coil packs, the rest appears to have been ejected!



So there you have it. Something has occurred that has involved the spark plug being spat out of its home, and it seems that quite a few combustion cycles have taken place that have battered the two components to bits! You can see all the indentations on and around the spark plug hex fitting from its obviously very rough ride.

Now, I don't know what bits have made their way through the exhaust system (if any, but I doubt that nothing at all went through) taking bits of turbo with them, etc., so the obvious step was to change the plugs and fit my spare coil pack, seeing how well it runs after that.


Anyway, upon fitting the spark plug to the affected cylinder (which is number 4 - the front middle, by the way), it wouldn't bite and screw in.

Further investigation revealed another problem. Either the initial action of the spark plug deseating itself, or the plug continuously travelling in and out of the threaded hole, has basically made the hole bigger:

50536 50526

I used a magnetic retrieval tool to indicate the difference in size. The right picture is a normal hole, and the left picture is the affected hole. In both pictures, the round end of the tool is touching one side of the hole. As you can see, the hole is probably about 2mm greater in diameter now! The inside of the hole is pretty much smooth, with little trace of a thread remaining...



So, I now have to consider my options... oh, no I don't - a plan is afoot, and it involves the Leggie being back on the road this month, leaving the May trip to the Ring unjeopardised!

Watch this space... /yes

Nutter_John
07-01-2012, 10:33 PM
That really is mullered , was there any bits in the chamber when you shoved your magnetic tool down there

horndog
07-01-2012, 10:38 PM
So, I now have to consider my options... oh, no I don't - a plan is afoot, and it involves the Leggie being back on the road this month

Let me guess, your transferring the Power from the Swift into the leggy,

foxdie
07-01-2012, 10:45 PM
This is quite shocking actually, glad you've got plans to sort it but holy crap, that's one hell of a mess Nev :)

Nick Mann
07-01-2012, 10:46 PM
Bummer, Nev. Hope the plan is a good one and that it works!

Not knowing what the plan is, I'd suggest that you ought to expect the possibility of:
Damage to valve seats/valves.
Damage to piston crown.
Damage to cylinder head (extra to what you have highlighted above!)
Unseated rockers.

I look forward to seeing it back on the road soon! :D

Ryan
07-01-2012, 10:48 PM
:unbeleeva

How on earth did that happen I wonder? Sorry Nev... that's not good news. Does that mean new engine time? :(

MarkSanne
07-01-2012, 11:09 PM
OUCH!!! Never seen that before on a 6A13TT! Good luck getting it proper and back to work again.

The Vee
08-01-2012, 12:51 AM
Not good at all. If it's not whole engine replacement you're looking at, then check the turbo on that bank of cylinders, if anything did go that way, it won't have liked it. Sorry to see this bud.

Chris.W
08-01-2012, 01:10 AM
Holly sweat mother of all things automotive, how in the hell did you manage that???

Looks prety screwed up son, maby cross threaded the plug on fitting perhaps?

Has the look of a mild case of terminal damage to either the turbo, piston or crown chamber of the affected cylinder.

Engine upgrade on the cards??

psbarham
08-01-2012, 10:04 AM
**** dude you was lucky.

the only time I've seen anything like that was when a plug hadn't been tightened properly. fixed it with a helicoil kit.

Mark 4
08-01-2012, 10:20 AM
Yup, could be as simple as a helicoil. Good luck with it Nev.

elnevio
08-01-2012, 10:15 PM
That really is mullered , was there any bits in the chamber when you shoved your magnetic tool down there

The piston appeared to be at TDC, but I couldn't see anything. I didn't shove my tool all the way in though! :o


Let me guess, your transferring the Power from the Swift into the leggy,

Funnily enough, this is something I laughingly mused over when selling the V6, with a view to putting the old V6 engine in the back of the Swift!


**** dude you was lucky.

the only time I've seen anything like that was when a plug hadn't been tightened properly. fixed it with a helicoil kit.


Yup, could be as simple as a helicoil. Good luck with it Nev.

The helicoil would be a consideration, but it has its drawbacks for me. I cover this some more below!


Bummer, Nev. Hope the plan is a good one and that it works!

Not knowing what the plan is, I'd suggest that you ought to expect the possibility of:
Damage to valve seats/valves.
Damage to piston crown.
Damage to cylinder head (extra to what you have highlighted above!)
Unseated rockers.

I look forward to seeing it back on the road soon! :D


:unbeleeva

How on earth did that happen I wonder? Sorry Nev... that's not good news. Does that mean new engine time? :(


Not good at all. If it's not whole engine replacement you're looking at, then check the turbo on that bank of cylinders, if anything did go that way, it won't have liked it. Sorry to see this bud.


Holly sweat mother of all things automotive, how in the hell did you manage that???

Looks prety screwed up son, maby cross threaded the plug on fitting perhaps?

Has the look of a mild case of terminal damage to either the turbo, piston or crown chamber of the affected cylinder.

Engine upgrade on the cards??

The plugs (Denso Iridium IK22s) have been in for about 25,000 miles - and inspected in that time. I'd like to think that cross-threaded is highly unlikely, given that they have always been straight-forward to remove and replace, never being seized, and except for the initial untightening/final tightening, screwed in easily and freely by hand.

There is the possibility of lean running being the culprit - perhaps a detonation event occurred that took the end of the plug off, and then combustion would have been occurring inside the plug core? It will mostly be a guessing game, that is certain. Even if repaired, the chance of it occurring again might not be low enough for me.

So a half-inch piece of hard iridium spark plug core broke off and probably bounced around the combustion chamber for a number of cycles, doing whatever damage, before disappearing out of an exhaust port and through the turbo. At least there isn't a cat on the vehicle to get trashed!

Then there is consideration to whatever other unknown bits got blown through...

Essentially, the condition of the engine and front turbo is unknown. There may be damage to the head, valves, piston and/or turbo - some of which may not actually prevent the car from running, but it could be running at a weakened level or even just be a ticking time-bomb with a significantly-shortened life span. I know nothing is 100% certain, but I'd rather not have something like this eating away at the peace of mind.

Then there is the convenience factor to consider - how long to have the car off the road for, fitting the work in, doing some work, then finding out it isn't doing the job and having to sort it out again. The work involved here, whilst possibly not beyond my capabilities, is almost certainly beyond my current knowledge, definitely outside of my comfort zone and miles beyond the time I have available.


What you have probably guessed is that this is heading to is a full engine swap. /yes

I have a known engine (well, still running in a car right now!) lined up for transplant, which has similar miles to mine (70-80,000).

No fault-finding, no attempted fixes - just straight to the convenient, one-stop solution! :deal2:

This involves the minimum of fuss and inconvenience, and will be sorted in one-go.


The cost of this will be somewhat mitigated by the cost of upcoming jobs (be it parts, my time, or someone else's time) that I would have been paying out for on my existing engine anyway - some of which will be much easier on an engine which is out of the car. This includes fresh and cleaned injectors, spark plugs, cambelt, water pump, TC seal. All fresh fluids - coolant, engine oil, ATF. Cambelt and water pump job on its own is a few hundred quid's worth, so takes a substantial chunk out of the cost of engine replacement.


And it'll all be in time for it's next MoT! :)

mike74
09-01-2012, 01:47 PM
A couple of thousand miles after i first got my Pulsar it started running like a sack of poop. When I pulled the plugs for a look, one of the ceramic insulator nose's had sheared and was sitting around the electrode. They were Denso's too & I binned the whole lot of them, never to be used again. I've heard other similar stories about faulty Denso plugs too!
I hope its just the plug thats failed & hasn't caused any other major damage (well, apart from the head)! :(

Mark 4
09-01-2012, 05:46 PM
Sounds like a plan Nev. Good luck with it.

foxdie
09-01-2012, 05:49 PM
There is the possibility of lean running being the culprit - perhaps a detonation event occurred that took the end of the plug off, and then combustion would have been occurring inside the plug core?

I suddenly feel the need to check all my plugs :uhoh:

Davezj
10-01-2012, 01:21 AM
sorry to hear of your problems nev.

i think you have the right idea swaping the whole engine, if you can get one cheaply enough. it is your long term best solution if you are not happy doing engine work.
personally i would pull the head off and see whats what before replacing the engine, if the bits of the plug are still in the cylinder bore with no damage to the piston, cylinder lining, turbo, etc. then just get another head and fit that. or get you original head retapped bigger and just use a larger diamiter thead plug, if the valves are ok. you might be lucky.
or if nothing else pulling the head of will give you a lot more confidence to tackle lager engine issue than you are used to.
or just for sh*t and gigles.
time to learn lots very quickly.

miller
10-01-2012, 10:50 AM
If you are braving an engine swap your self Ill come and give a hand for a few hours no problem.....even if it is to just throw spanners and give abuse!

elnevio
10-01-2012, 08:12 PM
Given that the diff on its own took a while too long, I think I'll be using alternative means! /dunce


But of course, thanks for the kind offer! /yes :smitten:

stu
10-01-2012, 08:18 PM
Given that the diff on its own took a while too long, I think I'll be using alternative means! /dunce

A "nutter" from Tring by any chance.

elnevio
31-01-2012, 04:36 PM
Done and done! And I am a happy boy!! :D

The engine is in and running beautifully - and much better than before when my old engine was not misfiring too. Also picked up whilst being changed was the condition of the autobox. The torque converter had play in it (or the shaft did, whatever the culprit was), so that's been changed as well to the one that was with the replacement engine anyway. Now have a matching gearbox ECU with it too, plus a 7203 engine ECU to boot!

The whole system has had the cambelt/waterpump done, plugs changed, newly-cleaned injectors installed, all coolant changed, Amsoil SSO 0w-30 engine oil, Amsoil ATF for the gearbox, torque converter seal changed. One of the urethane engine mounts has been installed (the difficult driver's side one). Unfortunately, I hadn't received the set in order to get them installed into the mounts while they were out/available, but I am only left with the three apparently slightly easier mounts to do.

Next step will be to rolling road the car on a Dyno Dynamics roller to get a new baseline figure, before any boost-raising happens. It is however quite savage as it is! /yes

crazydriver81
31-01-2012, 04:58 PM
/applaude

Well done. :thumbsup: All the best with the new powerplant /Steeringw - hasn't took long since the old engine went bang, has it?

elnevio
31-01-2012, 04:59 PM
Good old Club VR-4! :love:

WOODY72
31-01-2012, 05:20 PM
Well done Nev. Good to know you're back enjoying your second love! :2thumbsup /toycar

Humpty's Revenge
31-01-2012, 05:32 PM
un... excellent news Nev

Nick Mann
31-01-2012, 05:39 PM
Nice one Nev! :D

Hopefully this one will not end up the same way as the first.... Did you get a chance to have a look at the inside of the old engine?

aboo
31-01-2012, 05:49 PM
Well done Nev. Glad to hear its all sorted/yes

elnevio
31-01-2012, 06:19 PM
The inside of the engine was a little messy! The affected piston revealed lots of bits of metal embedded around the edges where the ringlands (?) are. The same pattern was reflected on the underside of the head (next to the valves - is that the valve seat area?). Oil was getting into the combustion chamber as well, suggesting damage to whatever stops oil getting past the pistons. As you can see, I'm not always too clear on the exact names of the various parts! /dunce

Most definitely the right decision, especially the revelation regarding the autobox. Well, we never were too sure of its heritage, as it were, I guess! :)

And the driver's side engine mount fell apart...

aboo
31-01-2012, 06:28 PM
The inside of the engine was a little messy! The affected piston revealed lots of bits of metal embedded around the edges where the ringlands (?) are. The same pattern was reflected on the underside of the head (next to the valves - is that the valve seat area?). Oil was getting into the combustion chamber as well, suggesting damage to whatever stops oil getting past the pistons. As you can see, I'm not always too clear on the exact names of the various parts! /dunce

Most definitely the right decision, especially the revelation regarding the autobox. Well, we never were too sure of its heritage, as it were, I guess! :)

And the driver's side engine mount fell apart...Sounds like a blessing in disguise./yes

lateshow
31-01-2012, 06:47 PM
elnevio: did you have any shutters if you had a faulty torque convertor???

adaxo
31-01-2012, 06:48 PM
So, it's not going to be broken then??:d

That's what I call a good/passionate owner deserved to own/ride a VR4 /GJ

/applaude

Davezj
31-01-2012, 06:59 PM
Weld one nev, hope it did not cost too much.

Let the fun begin!

amsoil
31-01-2012, 08:08 PM
That was an inspired decision, just changing the engine straight away! Bits that embed at the edge of the piston tend to collapse the ring lans which squeezes and pinches the top compression ring. When the piston gets hot the ring is forces in but is too tight to come out again hence the oil (and compression) escaping. Result is total engine rebuild / alternative engine. Best of luck with this one, but sounds like you are already ahead. (pun intended)

elnevio
31-01-2012, 08:34 PM
Top of the piston:

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Valves:

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Had no shuddering from the transmission, although I didn't think that the TC was behaving quite right. It was actually okay, just had play in it. Possibly would have lead to a failure sooner rather than later.

And it was never going to be broken - far too good for that! :D

Ryan
31-01-2012, 09:03 PM
Good to hear Nev, all's well that ends well. :)

Humpty's Revenge
03-02-2012, 09:14 AM
Nev have you received your poly mounts from the US yet? If yes did you have to pay duty Etc please? if so how much?

Nick Mann
03-02-2012, 09:44 AM
It looks like something has been rattling around in there doesn't it?

Steve, every time I have had a set it has cost in the region of 20 quid once landed in the UK.

elnevio
03-02-2012, 09:52 AM
The tracking information was telling me yesterday that it was being held pending payment of charges, and that I was being notified. Still waiting to be notified!

Humpty's Revenge
03-02-2012, 10:21 AM
It looks like something has been rattling around in there doesn't it?

Steve, every time I have had a set it has cost in the region of 20 quid once landed in the UK.


The tracking information was telling me yesterday that it was being held pending payment of charges, and that I was being notified. Still waiting to be notified!

Thanks guys, mine's just left the states by the look of things?

alan
03-02-2012, 11:48 AM
be prepared for a long wait as the customs over here are so slow, in fact they were bought shipped flown across the atlantic and all in less time than the lot at heathrow have taken to process it, and are still processing bah

elnevio
03-02-2012, 11:56 AM
My shipment was delayed in the first instance because they didn't have any black ones in stock. but did have the red ones, so I confirmed on 25 January that I'd have the red ones.

You can see from the most recent tracking info that they were in the UK two days later!

One week after landing, I still haven't been advised of their arrival, and when I can collect from the PO! /pan


Payment of charges - Item being held, addressee being notified, February 02, 2012, 12:28 am, GREAT BRITAIN
Arrival at Post Office, February 02, 2012, 12:20 am, GREAT BRITAIN
Customs clearance processing complete, February 01, 2012, 1:36 am, GREAT BRITAIN
Customs Clearance, January 27, 2012, 5:37 pm, GREAT BRITAIN
Customs Clearance, January 27, 2012, 5:36 pm, GREAT BRITAIN
Processed Through Sort Facility, January 27, 2012, 5:17 pm, GREAT BRITAIN
Processed Through Sort Facility, January 26, 2012, 2:05 pm, ISC CHICAGO IL (USPS)
Arrived at Sort Facility, January 26, 2012, 10:37 am, ISC CHICAGO IL (USPS)
Processed through USPS Sort Facility, January 25, 2012, 9:41 pm, COPPELL, TX 75099
Acceptance, January 25, 2012, 8:16 pm, FORT WORTH, TX 76161
Electronic Shipping Info Received, January 25, 2012
Shipment Accepted, January 25, 2012, 3:47 pm, STEPHENVILLE, TX 76401

alan
03-02-2012, 12:06 PM
well yr ahead a me, i hung on for the black ones and mine are still in clearance, looks like i have the joy of the post office to come

Humpty's Revenge
04-02-2012, 11:02 AM
Well they have landed in the UK & cleared customs!

So lets bring on the charges & a long wait? Funny thing is I never ordered a long wait.........:lipseal

elnevio
04-02-2012, 11:10 AM
I had the notice of charges through the door yesterday from Parcelforce.

Approx £12.50 import VAT.

And £13.50 handling charge! /bat

So a total of about £120 landed. Would have been closer to £110, but I paid for Express Delivery, as I needed them quickly originally!

alan
05-02-2012, 08:51 AM
They supply the long wait foc steve,part of the service from the lovely people in customs and parcelfarce. mine have cleared customs too so i shall be watching the door closely.:seeking: i bet nev has them in his hand by monday evening though

swinks
05-02-2012, 10:49 AM
Nev, any plans about old engine?
I may take care of cams... :)

Humpty's Revenge
06-02-2012, 03:42 PM
Guess what I had delivered today...........

alan
06-02-2012, 07:28 PM
:seeking:

elnevio
07-02-2012, 12:43 AM
Did you get stung for import VAT and a handling charge, Steve?

Not paid for mine yet, best do it tomorrow!

Humpty's Revenge
07-02-2012, 10:17 AM
Did you get stung for import VAT and a handling charge, Steve?

Not paid for mine yet, best do it tomorrow!

:smug: Sorry bud nothing, narda, zilch, zero & just to clarify.........NOT ONE FECKIN PENNY/Nuuu

But I will say it was nice havin a freebie as such due to over many years parting of near on a grand in tax/duty

amsoil
07-02-2012, 11:54 AM
The general rule nowadays is that if the item is shown as a gift and of under £100 value then it doesn't incur the attention of HMC&E.

Humpty's Revenge
07-02-2012, 11:57 AM
The general rule nowadays is that if the item is shown as a gift and of under £100 value then it doesn't incur the attention of HMC&E.

It was shown as other Don

thfelipeth
07-02-2012, 12:08 PM
what spark plugs would you use instead of the denso iridiums??? im scared now!!!

elnevio
07-02-2012, 12:10 PM
NGK BKR7EIX plugs :thumbsup:

alan
07-02-2012, 02:01 PM
i got charged customs etc, £11.41 for import vat and £8.00 clearance fee. wonder why its different ?

wintertidenz
08-02-2012, 07:24 AM
They only catch some packages going through customs.

jjayokocha
11-02-2012, 10:18 AM
Ye all depends with customs, i order in my td04 kits for the starlets from america and recently i got manifold, decat, gaskets, water & oil lines all packaged together without any problems. But got stung for £12 on a set of injectors that came seperate.

Davezj
11-02-2012, 07:05 PM
How do you pay duty and vat before the part come into the country?
I don't mind paying the duty ant vat, it is the clearance fee that parcel force charge you I don't like paying.
Basically, parcel force pay your customs charge for you and then you pay parcel force the money back, but parcel force then charge you for the transaction.

amsoil
11-02-2012, 09:28 PM
You can't, they have you by the short and curlys I'm afraid.

paulg23
20-02-2012, 01:17 PM
My Vr4 has just done a similar thing. Had an occasional misfire for a while now. Got seriously sick when arriving home on saturday. Had a look and the nearside front spark plug had been spat out! No threads left in the head either :quasi: Helicoil kit ordered. Cant see any other damage (Fingers crossed).

jjayokocha
20-02-2012, 01:35 PM
would they likes of this kit do the job for inlet mani bolt holes?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/25-Piece-Thread-Repair-Kit-M8-x-1-25-x-10-8mm-Helicoil-Type-/260915226847?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3cbfc268df

amsoil
20-02-2012, 03:01 PM
Yes its the complete kit, drill, tap, installer and loads of inserts, seriously cheap !
Pity they dont do imperial!

jjayokocha
21-02-2012, 10:39 AM
so that kit be no good then? need to re thread where the inlet mani bolts down as the 2 long bolts & 3 at the front dont seem to grip that threads anymore.

MarkSanne
21-02-2012, 10:51 AM
How do you keep bits of drilled metal from falling in the comb. chamber?!

amsoil
21-02-2012, 11:47 AM
Lots of grease on the tap and accept that some will fall in! Makes no difference as its very fine and will go as soon as you start the car.
The bit you need to get out is the coils snap off tag, some dont bother but to me its good to kow that this bit is clear, the metal is very hard.

MarkSanne
21-02-2012, 01:34 PM
If these helicoils are steel (don't know, not worked with yet) then a magnet might help in retreiving the snap off tag?

Mark 4
21-02-2012, 01:50 PM
They are very often stainless steel.

jjayokocha
21-02-2012, 06:40 PM
so that cheap kit do the job then?