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foxdie
20-03-2012, 06:29 PM
Hi all :)

This thread has been created to address commonly asked questions in relation to tuning EC5A (Galant VR-4) and EC5W (Legnum) cars. The questions answered here are aimed at those asking if something is possible, or to tuners starting out with little experience.

There are some questions that, when asked, you may receive a cold shoulder to. This is because, although not apparent to yourself, the answer is never simple nor practical. This is just a forewarning to expect a bad response to some questions but not to take it personally :)

1. If I send you my cars ROM, can you set it to run at such-and-such boost?

There are 2 reasons this is a poor question;
As our cars don't have a MAP sensor, engine performance calculations are done based on a perceived Load, this is a calculation the ECU does based on a number of factors such as how much air is passing by the MAF sensor, what temperature etc. It is not directly related to manifold pressure (aka "boost" and "vacuum").
Every car differs, even before it's left the factory they could differ slightly due to tolerances in manufacturing process, and once it's left the factory it's a free-for-all on how the car changes, factors such as servicing, how the car is treated etc all cause differences.
In short, it's impossible to tune a car to run at a specific amount of boost, and close to impossible to get it to run close to that figure without mapping it in person.

There is a similar question that often comes in that has both the above answered factored into it and some more;

2. Can you send me a ROM that gives me an extra 40 HP?

Asking for pre-tuned images for use on your (or anothers) car is a very bad idea. It's unreliable, often dangerous, but always downright lazy. Asking for a previously-tuned image so you can learn from it isn't so widely frowned upon, but it's still encroaching on something that someone else has invested time in preparing.

Also, there's no such thing as a ROM that gives you an extra "something" HP, as stated earlier, every car is different and requires it's own unique map to make the most of it and handle it's subtle differences that can often result in vast differences.

Here is a theoretical example; 3 identical cars all leave the factory supposedly tuned to 260 HP could meet up 5 years later and put on a dyno;
Car 1 makes 230 HP because it's been serviced poorly
Car 2 makes 250 HP due to natural wear/tear/age
Car 3 makes 265 HP because its fuel pump is failing causing the car to run leaner than intended
If I was to create a generic ROM image that ups the target load (ie. loosely how much extra boost to apply) by an additional 15%, it could have the following effects on the above cars;
Car 1 makes 240 HP because gains were harder to achieve due to poor servicing
Car 2 responds well and makes a respectable 280 HP
Car 3 briefly makes 290 HP before excessive knock causes the engine to die
In addition to this, asking for gains such as +40 HP is a pipe dream unless you have sufficient backing in your wallet for supporting mods. Lets say you're tuning a manual or a facelift auto, you're already starting with 280 HP (well, 276 HP for the pedantic), if you want +40 HP on top of that (320 HP) you've already exceeded what the fuel pump can deliver, and you're also close to the usable limit of our TD03 turbos.

Some people claim you don't need to upgrade the fuel pump before you ready the limit of the turbos, however that's if the fuel pump and pressure regulator are in perfect working order, which after 10-15 years is highly unlikely. If you're gonna ask for 320 HP out of a VR-4, it's highly recommended you invest in good supporting mods; Fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, intercooler, exhaust system and performance air filter. You also need to start thinking about cooling if you plan on running 320 HP for extended periods (such as on track days). Once and only when you've done that, you will definitely need the ECU tuning to suit the modifications.

Here's a nice example of that last point about reflashing after the modifications have been done, using the stock fuelling table after installing my fuelling modifications (Walbro GSS342 255 LPH fuel pump and a Sytec Fuel Pressure Regulator) I actually LOST power because the car was running significantly richer (AFRs of around 7-8 under WOT). I've had to set those matching entries in the fuelling table to around 12.5-13 just to bring the fuelling up to a safe 10.5-11.0 (and still I feel there's still power to be had by leaning it out to 11.5). I feel my "tune" is circa 320 HP, an upcoming dyno day will confirm that, however if my ROM was to be flashed onto a car without those fuelling mods, I'd be very surprised if it didn't go bang.

3. Can you lean out my cruise for better economy?

As of March 2012, not by a reflash, the ECU is set to match 0.5V from the lambda sensor but as of yet the location of this value in the ROM is undetermined. And if / when it does become possible the benefits won't be safely usable.

Stock narrowband oxygen / lambda sensors output a voltage signal between 0-1V with the stoichiometric air-fuel mixture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air%E2%80%93fuel_ratio#Engine_management_systems) of 14.7:1 being around 0.5V, there is very little room to change this because the change can often be very sharp (here (http://www.ztechz.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/narrowbando2.jpg) is a very optimistic narrowband graph), if you were to aim for 14.9:1 the voltage would be around 0.2V, not leaving much room between potentially running much leaner.

It's fairly well adopted (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?59362-Safe-lean-cruise./) that a cruise AFR of around 15.2:1 is beneficial to fuel economy on 8G VR-4s, the only safe way to achieve this is to use either a wideband kit (such as the Innovate LC-1 or MTX-L), or a fuelling computer, that has a programmable narrowband emulation.

That said, economy benefits can be had by advancing timing a few degrees (no more) around the cruise areas.

4. What ECU do I have? Can it be reflashed?

The following is correct as of March 2012;

7201 - Silver metal casing with green connectors - Commonly found on Pre-facelifts - Requires EcuFlash to edit ROM, requires a Tactrix OpenPort 1.3U or 2.0 cable to reflash the ECU, requires MMCFlash USB Module #1 to do the flashing

H8/539 - Black plastic casing with black connectors - Fairly rare and straddled the Pre-facelift and Facelift switch - Requires EcuFlash to edit ROM, requires a Tactrix OpenPort 1.3U or 2.0 cable to reflash the ECU, requires MMCFlash USB Module #1 to do the flashing

7202 - Black plastic casing with black connectors - Commonly found on early Facelifts - Requires EcuFlash to edit ROM and flash, requires a Tactrix OpenPort 2.0 cable to reflash the ECU

7203 - Black plastic casing with black connectors - Commonly found on late Facelifts - Requires EcuFlash to edit ROM and flash, requires a Tactrix OpenPort 2.0 cable to reflash the ECU

Links: EcuFlash (http://www.evoscan.com/free-ecu-rom-downloads)
MMCFlash USB Module #1 (http://www.evoscan.com/evoscan-gps-obdii-cables/details/32/1/performance-vehicle-pc-diagnostic-interfaces/mmcflash-software-for-mitsubishi,-kia,-hyundai,-suzuki,-mazda-reflashing)
OpenPort 1.3U Cable (http://www.evoscan.com/evoscan-gps-obdii-cables/details/15/1/performance-vehicle-pc-diagnostic-interfaces/evoscan-13u-universal-usb-datalogging-and-reflashing-cable)
OpenPort 2.0 Cable (http://www.evoscan.com/evoscan-gps-obdii-cables/details/17/1/performance-vehicle-pc-diagnostic-interfaces/tactrix-openport-20-universal-usb-cable---yes-in-stock)

5. Can my ECU use another ROM and/or have mods / switchable maps?

Again, as of March 2012;

7201 - This ECU can only run ROM images specifically built for the 7201, basic tuning can be done such as raising the boost / fuel cut threshold, adjusting fuelling / timing and boost control

All others (the H8/539, 7202 and 7203) - These ECUs can all interchange ROM images, and in addition to the above basic tuning they also support Kenneths ECU mods.

Kenneth has released 2 ROMs that add additional features: v1.x that adds switchable anti-lag / launch control / flat shifting / CEL-on-knock - link (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?59075-Kenneth-s-ECU-Mods-V1.03)
v2.x that adds 8 switchable maps and CEL-on-knock, with 8 unique Fuel / Ignition Timing / Boost Control tables that are interchangeable with the switchable maps - link (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?61071-Kenneth-s-ECU-Mods-V2-0)

6. Can I swap ECUs?

Yes, but only if you flash the correct ROM image and follow this truth table;
All VR-4 engine ECUs are compatible with manual VR-4s, regardless of what VR-4 it came from
Engine ECUs from automatic cars with TCL are compatible with all VR-4s
Engine ECUs from automatic cars without TCL may have problems if put into an automatic car with TCL
Engine ECUs from manual cars may have problems if put into an automatic car (either with or without TCL)
I say "may have problems" because it's unclear given so many different PCB revisions if the pins for TCL or auto ECU communication are connected internally to the processor.

More questions will appear here later, watch this space ;)

lateshow
20-03-2012, 07:53 PM
I still disagree about the fuel pump and regulator. And no need for air filter, you dont even need the sport type k&n that fill the place of the original one. But maybe this isnt the place to talk about it :)

And when it comes to fuel economy, every car seems to be an invidual too :)

VR457
20-03-2012, 08:06 PM
Sounds like a lot of frustration for you but educational for me at least. Putting it across this way helps me understand the real issue without which i would be asking numpty questions too.

ersanalamin
20-03-2012, 09:44 PM
I am one of other to ask u the same question, you dont have to be upset about the question, You dont have to lecture me about every engine uniqueness I do really understand that every engine is unique. the reason I ask u the question is to make some comparation of what i ve done to my work, and discus of with u of what u ve done in more detail and create my own tuning. and i am not stupid enough to flash ur work into my own ECU. One of my problem is there are many vr4base out there to download in i m quite confuse what vr4base.xml to download to suit my need. I even cant follow the merlin guidance precisely when I saw in his tutorial that he used different vr4base.xml to mine and also showed different STOCK ROM mapping than my STOCK ROM ECU. Merlin also didnt give a clear clue about how to tune factory boost ECU, I cant even find the definition of BDEL in his guidance when i try to tune factory boost, different interface definition i guess.

So u can show us the tuned stock rom mapping that offer additional 40 hp and let us to decide what to do about it, or at least you can share with us the latest vr4base.xml that offer factory boost tuning interface if u dont mind.

I hope ur refusal is nothing to do with copyright because this is what the forum is use for, and i also believe that u already use someone else works to do your tune, beside this is for personal use dont worry.

VR457
20-03-2012, 09:56 PM
Sounds like a lot of frustration for you but educational for me at least. Putting it across this way helps me understand the real issue without which i would be asking numpty questions too.

But i would leave the work to you seeing as i would have no clue where to start if i had to tinker with it myself.

foxdie
20-03-2012, 10:15 PM
I still disagree about the fuel pump and regulator. And no need for air filter, you dont even need the sport type k&n that fill the place of the original one. But maybe this isnt the place to talk about it :)

This probably falls into the realm of an individuals feelings, personally I feel it's pushing certain parts way beyond spec prompting disaster, if you uprate those basic parts you could be adding increased tolerance against something going bang. :)


And when it comes to fuel economy, every car seems to be an individual too :)

Indeed it is :)


Sounds like a lot of frustration for you but educational for me at least. Putting it across this way helps me understand the real issue without which i would be asking numpty questions too.


I am one of other to ask u the same question, you dont have to be upset about the question, You dont have to lecture me about every engine uniqueness I do really understand that every engine is unique.

I'd like to state that I'm not angry or frustrated, it's just the same questions keep coming up again and again and instead of having to retype several times, I can just refer people to this thread ;)


the reason I ask u the question is to make some comparation of what i ve done to my work, and discus of with u of what u ve done in more detail and create my own tuning. and i am not stupid enough to flash ur work into my own ECU.

Okay, I understand that, but the impression you gave in your PM was you were trying to cut corners. I don't want to see you or anyone elses engine go pop :)


One of my problem is there are many vr4base out there to download in i m quite confuse what vr4base.xml to download to suit my need. I even cant follow the merlin guidance precisely when I saw in his tutorial that he used different vr4base.xml to mine and also showed different STOCK ROM mapping than my STOCK ROM ECU. Merlin also didnt give a clear clue about how to tune factory boost ECU, I cant even find the definition of BDEL in his guidance.

Now that I can appreciate, there are many versions and we're still waiting for Bill and Steve to clean up the definitions (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?53046-Boost-Control-via-Factory-ECU&highlight=definition), I also appreciate that it's difficult to find stock ROMS. I have a collection of ROMs I know to be original, it's finding a place to host them that a). is reliable and b). won't have Mitsubishi sue my ass for because it's technically their intellectual property.

Regarding the tuning guide, is it worth one of us doing another one once the definition files are cleaned up?


So if u cant show me the tuned stock rom mapping that offer additional 40 hp, at least you can share with me the latest vr4base.xml that offer factory boost tuning if u dont mind. This is for personal use dont worry.

Again, can't provide a tuned one, and may get in trouble for posting these but here are all the stock ROMs and definitions I have collected;

Definitions (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/36481366/ECU/galant-defs.zip)
ROM Images (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/36481366/ECU/Galant%20and%20Legnum%20ROMs.zip)

The following ROMs in that zip file have been verified from multiple sources to be genuine and stock;
Default V6 7202 Auto (161HP).hex
Default V6 7203 Auto (158HP).hex
Default VR-4 7201 Auto TCL.hex
Default VR-4 7202 Auto Non-TCL.hex
Default VR-4 7202 Auto TCL.hex
Default VR-4 H8-539 Auto.hex
There's one manual ROM in there I found on EvoScan.com, to be honest I've only used it once, I switched to Kenneths KS Mods 1.x release shortly afterwards.

Hope this helps! :)

SEAN-NZ
21-03-2012, 12:52 AM
because i know just about nothing about tuning, or the ecus in our cars, what could be done with a pfl manual vr4 ecu, assuming its the 7201 because of the metal casing, and if nothing is possible, can fl ecus be put straight it if i could find one?

adaxo
21-03-2012, 01:14 AM
can fl ecus be put straight it if i could find one?


Yes, IMO the easiest and simplest way is to fit FL ecu and then start tweaking, but I probably know not much more than you

Zipperdydoda
21-03-2012, 01:25 AM
I got £14.63...now, can we have a liddle chat Jason....?...its cash...

ersanalamin
21-03-2012, 01:52 AM
Definitions (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/36481366/ECU/galant-defs.zip)
ROM Images (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/36481366/ECU/Galant%20and%20Legnum%20ROMs.zip)

The following ROMs in that zip file have been verified from multiple sources to be genuine and stock;
Default V6 7202 Auto (161HP).hex
Default V6 7203 Auto (158HP).hex
Default VR-4 7201 Auto TCL.hex
Default VR-4 7202 Auto Non-TCL.hex
Default VR-4 7202 Auto TCL.hex
Default VR-4 H8-539 Auto.hex
There's one manual ROM in there I found on EvoScan.com, to be honest I've only used it once, I switched to Kenneths KS Mods 1.x release shortly afterwards.

Hope this helps! :)
Thanks for sharing, Manual ROM found on EvoScan.com is published by mitsiman

foxdie
21-03-2012, 10:35 AM
because i know just about nothing about tuning, or the ecus in our cars, what could be done with a pfl manual vr4 ecu, assuming its the 7201 because of the metal casing, and if nothing is possible, can fl ecus be put straight it if i could find one?

Another commonly asked question. As of March 2012, here is the current state of being able to reflash VR-4 engine ECUs;

7201 - Silver metal casing with green connectors - Commonly found on Pre-facelifts - Requires EcuFlash to edit ROM, requires a Tactrix OpenPort 1.3U or 2.0 cable to reflash the ECU, requires MMCFlash USB Module #1 to do the flashing

H8/539 - Black plastic casing with black connectors - Fairly rare and straddled the Pre-facelift and Facelift switch - Requires EcuFlash to edit ROM, requires a Tactrix OpenPort 1.3U or 2.0 cable to reflash the ECU, requires MMCFlash USB Module #1 to do the flashing

7202 - Black plastic casing with black connectors - Commonly found on early Facelifts - Requires EcuFlash to edit ROM and flash, requires a Tactrix OpenPort 2.0 cable to reflash the ECU

7203 - Black plastic casing with black connectors - Commonly found on late Facelifts - Requires EcuFlash to edit ROM and flash, requires a Tactrix OpenPort 2.0 cable to reflash the ECU

Links: EcuFlash (http://www.evoscan.com/free-ecu-rom-downloads)
MMCFlash USB Module #1 (http://www.evoscan.com/evoscan-gps-obdii-cables/details/32/1/performance-vehicle-pc-diagnostic-interfaces/mmcflash-software-for-mitsubishi,-kia,-hyundai,-suzuki,-mazda-reflashing)
OpenPort 1.3U Cable (http://www.evoscan.com/evoscan-gps-obdii-cables/details/15/1/performance-vehicle-pc-diagnostic-interfaces/evoscan-13u-universal-usb-datalogging-and-reflashing-cable)
OpenPort 2.0 Cable (http://www.evoscan.com/evoscan-gps-obdii-cables/details/17/1/performance-vehicle-pc-diagnostic-interfaces/tactrix-openport-20-universal-usb-cable---yes-in-stock)
To answer your question on what can be done with the 7201, I'm gonna open that up to all the ECUs;
7201 can only run ROM images specifically built for the 7201, basic tuning can be done such as raising the boost / fuel cut threshold, adjusting fuelling / timing and boost control
H8/539, 7202 and 7203 can all interchange ROM images, in addition to the above basic tuning, Kenneth has released 2 ROMs that add additional features: v1.x that adds switchable anti-lag / launch control / flat shifting / CEL-on-knock (link (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?59075-Kenneth-s-ECU-Mods-V1.03))
v2.x that adds 8 switchable maps and CEL-on-knock, with 8 unique Fuel / Ignition Timing / Boost Control tables that are interchangeable with the switchable maps
And to answer your question whether ECUs can be swapped out, the answer is yes if you flash the correct ROM image and if you understand this truth table;
All engine ECUs can be put into manual cars, regardless of gearbox or TCL status
Engine ECUs from automatic cars with TCL can be put into any car too
Engine ECUs from automatic cars without TCL may have problems if put into an automatic car with TCL
Engine ECUs from manual cars may have problems if put into an automatic car (either with or without TCL)
I say "may have problems" because it's unclear given so many different PCB revisions if the pins for TCL or auto ECU communication are connected internally to the processor.

This should hopefully help :)


I got £14.63...now, can we have a liddle chat Jason....?...its cash...

Oh my, you're flush aren't you? ;)


Thanks for sharing, Manual ROM found on EvoScan.com is published by mitsiman

Yep it was, but until I see it again in the wild on a "virgin" ECU, I'm not going to presume it's a known-stock ROM image :)

Gowf
21-03-2012, 04:22 PM
Hi all,

I feel I need to create this thread so that those with the tools to remap ECUs don't keep asking clueless questions. Those of us who do have a measure of sense of what we're doing get frustrated by questions like these, we spend time researching and conferring with other tuners to learn. We don't just ask for pre-tuned ROMs unless we already know how to implement close to if not an identical tune.

Here are some frequently asked questions and why, when asked, you're likely to not receive a straight answer;



There are 2 reasons this isn't a good type of question;
As our cars don't have a MAP sensor, engine performance calculations are done based on a perceived Load, this is a calculation the ECU does based on a number of factors such as how much air is passing by the MAF sensor, what temperature etc. It is not directly related to manifold pressure (aka "boost" and "vacuum").
Every car differs, even before it's left the factory they could differ slightly due to tolerances in manufacturing process, and once it's left the factory it's a free-for-all on how the car changes, factors such as servicing, how the car is treated etc all cause differences.
In short, it's impossible to tune a car to run at a specific amount of boost, and close to impossible to get it to run close to that figure without mapping it in person.

There is a similar question that often comes in that has both the above answered factored into it and some more;



Asking for pre-tuned images for use on your (or anothers) car is a no-go. It's unreliable, often dangerous, and always downright lazy. Asking for a previously-tuned image so you can learn from it isn't so widely frowned upon, but it's still encroaching on something that someone else has invested time in preparing.

Also, there's no such thing as a ROM that gives you an extra ??? HP, as stated earlier, every car is different and requires it's own unique map to make the most of it and handle it's subtle differences that can often result in vast differences.

An example is this; 3 identical cars all leave the factory supposedly tuned to 260 HP could meet up 5 years later and put on a dyno;
Car 1 makes 230 HP because it's been serviced poorly
Car 2 makes 250 HP due to natural wear/tear/age
Car 3 makes 265 HP because its fuel pump is failing causing the car to run leaner than intended
If I was to create a generic ROM image that ups the target load (ie. loosely how much extra boost to apply) by an additional 15%, it could have the following effects on the above cars;
Car 1 makes 240 HP because gains were harder to achieve
Car 2 makes a respectable 280 HP
Car 3 briefly makes 290 HP before excessive knock causes the engine to die
In addition to this, asking for gains such as +40 HP is a pipe dream unless you have sufficient backing in your wallet for supporting mods. Lets say you're tuning a manual or a facelift auto, you're already starting with 280 HP (well, 276 HP for the pedantic), if you want +40 HP on top of that (320 HP) you've already exceeded what the fuel pump can deliver, and you're also close to the usable limit of our TD03 turbos.

If you're gonna ask for 320 HP out of a VR-4, you're gonna need good supporting mods; Fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, intercooler, exhaust system and performance air filter. You also need to start thinking about cooling if you plan on running 320 HP for extended periods (such as on track days). Once and only when you've done that, you will definitely need the ECU tuning to suit the modifications.

Here's a nice example of that last point, using the stock fuelling table after installing my fuelling modifications (Walbro GSS342 255 LPH fuel pump and a Sytec Fuel Pressure Regulator) I actually LOST power because the car was running significantly richer (AFRs of around 7-8 under WOT). I've had to set those matching entries in the fuelling table to around 12.5-13 just to bring the fuelling up to a safe 10.5-11.0 (and still I feel there's still power to be had by leaning it out to 11.5). I feel my "tune" is circa 320 HP, an upcoming dyno day will confirm that, however if my ROM was to be flashed onto a car without those fuelling mods, I'd be very surprised if it didn't go bang.



As of March 2012, not by a reflash, the ECU is set to match 0.5V from the lambda sensor but as of yet the location of this value in the ROM is undetermined. And if / when it does become possible the benefits won't be safely usable.

Stock narrowband oxygen / lambda sensors output a voltage signal between 0-1V with the stoichiometric air-fuel mixture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air%E2%80%93fuel_ratio#Engine_management_systems) of 14.7:1 being around 0.5V, there is very little room to change this because the change can often be very sharp (here (http://www.ztechz.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/narrowbando2.jpg) is a very optimistic narrowband graph), if you were to aim for 14.9:1 the voltage would be around 0.2V, not leaving much room between potentially running much leaner.

It's fairly well adopted (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?59362-Safe-lean-cruise./) that a cruise AFR of around 15.2:1 is beneficial to fuel economy on 8G VR-4s, the only safe way to achieve this is to use either a wideband kit (such as the Innovate LC-1 or MTX-L), or a fuelling computer, that has a programmable narrowband emulation.

That said, economy benefits can be had by advancing timing a few degrees (no more) around the cruise areas.

This maybe isnt the place to say this either, but you are talking in very generic and somewhat confusing terms when looking at cruise. A lambda value of 1, is used because of exhaust emission legislation. You DO get maximum economy (if we want to use this term) at a lambda of 1.1, however due to NOx issues this is not deemed acceptable (although there are ways of resolving this issue). Advancing the timing around the cruise areas may or may not improve your economy, leaner mixtures burn slower and so you find that you have to put more timing in for them, BUT.... you have to weigh in what the manufacturer has already put in place there (along with other factors such as speed, charge temp, etc). All in all, you have to remember that manufacturers have teams of people that spend months creating these maps, and do so for a reason, so changing these settings without true thought into why things do what they do can be quite detrimental.

wintertidenz
22-03-2012, 07:12 AM
Jason - I have a 7203 MD340289 ECU that apparently is from a late PFL (however it may have been changed) - I can attempt to pull the image off this for you if you like. It's stock as far as I know.

Also - TCL seems to work just fine with it. Again, maybe this actually IS from a PFL auto that had TCL - but I can't be sure.

Once I get ECUFlash allowing me to download the image with my VAGCOM modified cable, I'll post up the image.

BCX
22-03-2012, 07:54 AM
Vagcom cable will not work with ecuflash.

Ecuflash needs a j2534 compatible, not ftdi.

As for tcl, you enable or disable it for a rom, ecu periphery0 bit 13 is what you want to play with.

There's a few tables if found that only work when this bit is set.

wintertidenz
22-03-2012, 09:48 AM
Damn, well that's that idea out the window - guess I need to get a hold of an OpenPort cable.

TCL does seem to work with this ECU - although I haven't really tried to lose traction just yet :P

foxdie
22-03-2012, 11:28 AM
Vagcom cable will not work with ecuflash.

Ecuflash needs a j2534 compatible, not ftdi.

As for tcl, you enable or disable it for a rom, ecu periphery0 bit 13 is what you want to play with.

There's a few tables if found that only work when this bit is set.

The weird thing here is that although EcuFlash requires an OpenPort 2.0 (j2534) cable to reflash, MMCFlash can use the 1.3U (FTDI) cable, it permits this by pausing to wait for you to apply +16V to +18V to the EFI (Engine) ECU reflashing pin (aka boot pin) on the 12-pin connector. I'm not sure if +12V will suffice (ie. you can't just use the car battery voltage), the OpenPort 2.0 probably has a built-in voltage step-up converter.

There's more details in this thread (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?62056-init-ecu-pin-for-reflashing&highlight=boot+pin)

As VAGCOM cables typically have problems accessing the AYC and ABS ECUs (because you have to ground pin 1), I would say that these cheap cables cannot successfully reflash the EFI ECU, and even if they managed to start the flash process, they could potentially brick the ECU.

I have a couple of N/A V6 ECUs (one I had previously, one a gift from Jamil), they can be reflashed when plugged into the VR-4 wiring loom, I don't mind risking toasting my one to test this theory if someone has an OpenPort 1.3U and a generic VAGCOM cable I can test with?

Davezj
22-03-2012, 02:33 PM
Jason - I have a 7203 MD340289 ECU that apparently is from a late PFL (however it may have been changed) - I can attempt to pull the image off this for you if you like. It's stock as far as I know.

Also - TCL seems to work just fine with it. Again, maybe this actually IS from a PFL auto that had TCL - but I can't be sure.

Once I get ECUFlash allowing me to download the image with my VAGCOM modified cable, I'll post up the image.

it sound like you have had a replacement ECU fitted to your car.
i believe 7203 ecu were only factory fitted to FL's from about 2001 ish.

wintertidenz
23-03-2012, 06:44 AM
Jason - if pin 9 is pulled or disconnected, and pin 1 and 4 are bridged either permanently or with a switch, AYC and ABS can be accessed perfectly fine. You would need the extra connector for applying voltage to the ECU for flashing though - which you normally get with the OP's.

Dave - I swapped it out for an ECU I bought that was apparently from a late PFL. It also definitely says on top MD340289.
The factory one I had was a 7201.

foxdie
23-03-2012, 09:56 AM
Jason - if pin 9 is pulled or disconnected, and pin 1 and 4 are bridged either permanently or with a switch, AYC and ABS can be accessed perfectly fine. You would need the extra connector for applying voltage to the ECU for flashing though - which you normally get with the OP's.

Dave - I swapped it out for an ECU I bought that was apparently from a late PFL. It also definitely says on top MD340289.
The factory one I had was a 7201.

Hi Dan,

I was actually referring to reflashing with a VAGCOM cable, those stupidly cheap (ie. under £15) cables found on ebay.

Are you 110% sure that you can access the AYC ECU with Pin 1 hard-connected to Pin 4? It should be using Pin 1 to init those ECUs.

BCX
23-03-2012, 10:23 AM
Are you 110% sure that you can access the AYC ECU with Pin 1 hard-connected to Pin 4? It should be using Pin 1 to init those ECUs.

pin 1 initialises any ecu that is on the k-line bus (TCU, AYC, EFI, ABS, ACD)

As part of the 5-baud init, you send a unique address. this specifies what module will communicate.

as for reflashing, reflash connector has a dedicated pin for each module that can be reflashed. In our vr4, this internally joins to the flmcr pin of the H8 to provide it with a voltage to burn the rom (remove read only protection) and gets the rom to boot the flash kernel.

foxdie
23-03-2012, 10:39 AM
pin 1 initialises any ecu that is on the k-line bus (TCU, AYC, EFI, ABS, ACD)

As part of the 5-baud init, you send a unique address. this specifies what module will communicate.

Exactly, so holding it to GND would prevent initialising any other ECU, it's just a fluke that the EFI ECU responds if this is permanently grounded.


as for reflashing, reflash connector has a dedicated pin for each module that can be reflashed. In our vr4, this internally joins to the flmcr pin of the H8 to provide it with a voltage to burn the rom (remove read only protection) and gets the rom to boot the flash kernel.

Don't suppose you can confirm if the voltage applied to that pin is the same as battery voltage (+12V to +14V) or if it needs to be the higher band of +16V to +18V?

psbarham
23-03-2012, 10:56 AM
This maybe isnt the place to say this either, but you are talking in very generic and somewhat confusing terms when looking at cruise. A lambda value of 1, is used because of exhaust emission legislation. You DO get maximum economy (if we want to use this term) at a lambda of 1.1, however due to NOx issues this is not deemed acceptable (although there are ways of resolving this issue). Advancing the timing around the cruise areas may or may not improve your economy, leaner mixtures burn slower and so you find that you have to put more timing in for them, BUT.... you have to weigh in what the manufacturer has already put in place there (along with other factors such as speed, charge temp, etc). All in all, you have to remember that manufacturers have teams of people that spend months creating these maps, and do so for a reason, so changing these settings without true thought into why things do what they do can be quite detrimental.

Aah the benefits of actually getting your hands dirty from tuning an engine to the point of destruction ;)

wintertidenz
23-03-2012, 10:57 PM
Jason - I've been able to pull up AYC data from the ECU with that pin grounded on my VAGCOM cable, although it was a while ago.

As far as I was aware, the ECU won't go into diagnostic mode unless pin 1 is grounded, which usually means you get no data.

I looked at the H8 specs a while back and I think it mentions in the documentation that it requires 5v for normal operation, and 7-8v for flashing.

wintertidenz
23-03-2012, 11:18 PM
Okay, just tested the cable - it allows me to connect to the ECU, but not to AYC. I could have sworn that this cable was the one I used!

Actually, wait a second... my previous cable was the one that worked fine, and I think Ryan has that now.

I'll try removing the pin 1-4 bridge later on to see if it helps.

Nick Mann
23-03-2012, 11:55 PM
Jason, I have a vagcom KKL with a paperclip in pin 1 soldered to pin 4. You are welcome to abuse that at some point.

wintertidenz
24-03-2012, 07:18 AM
Just tested - with pin 1 disconnected from ground, you can't get a connection to any ECU.

With it connected to pin 4, you can get ECU connection - but not AYC.

I'll find the pinouts for the OpenPort and see if I can figure out what pin needs to be connected to talk to the AYC ECU.

Also - you cannot download anything off the ECU unless you have the OpenPort cable to provide the high voltage.

Adam.Findlay
24-03-2012, 07:38 AM
If wanted I have a stock 7203 manual rom. seems i have deleted the stock 7202 manual rom that I had though

foxdie
24-03-2012, 05:34 PM
Just tested - with pin 1 disconnected from ground, you can't get a connection to any ECU.

With it connected to pin 4, you can get ECU connection - but not AYC.

I thought not, I had the same issue with my VAGCOM (FTDI based) cable. I also tried moving Pin 15 (L-Line) to Pin 1 in the hope that would allow EvoScan to init the other ECUs.


I'll find the pinouts for the OpenPort and see if I can figure out what pin needs to be connected to talk to the AYC ECU.

I'm unsure if this is required, please consult this thread (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?50418-OBD-port-pinout&highlight=pinout) first :)


Also - you cannot download anything off the ECU unless you have the OpenPort cable to provide the high voltage.

Aye but is that +16V to +18V? Or just +12V? I'm not sure if VAGCOM cables take power from the +12V line to communicate of if they just switch the lines to ground to communicate.

wintertidenz
24-03-2012, 09:13 PM
I'm running EvoScan 2.6 as well at the moment, so this could be causing a few issues. I'll upgrade it sometime this week when I get the new serial number.

Just looking at the schematic for the OpenPort 1.3U now - pin 9 and 15 are connected together to the L-line, so I may need to put a new pin in and connect those two pins.
I'm also noticing a ferrite transformer by the looks of it? There's also an output from the LM555 to a VCC line, a cap, 2 diodes and a 1k resistor to the boot line - I think that's your 16v line.

Easiest way to test the voltage will be a multimeter. Just found this on the ECUFlash site too:


we will not be able to release a version of EcuFlash for the Mitsubishi H8 processor family of ECUs that works with the Openport 1.3. The reason being that the Openport 1.3 power supply circuit that generates the ~16V the ECU needs to supply the regulated reflashing voltage to the CPU does not have a sufficient current capacity, causing this voltage to drop to levels insufficient to safely flash the CPU (the CPU goes into a protection mode to prevent you from even trying). The Openport 1.3 does generate a voltage large enough to cause the processor to startup in boot mode, which is why you could read and compare in past versions, but unfortunately, it just isn't usable for reflashing. Later processors like the SH2 and M32R generate this reflash voltage internally, and have minimal current requirements, which is why the Openport 1.3 works with the Evo 7/8/9 without a problem.

Guess that means that yes, it does generate 16v to that connector to bring the ECU into boot mode.

foxdie
24-03-2012, 09:28 PM
I'm running EvoScan 2.6 as well at the moment, so this could be causing a few issues. I'll upgrade it sometime this week when I get the new serial number.

Be warned, the later versions drop all support for ELM / FTDI cables that aren't either an OpenPort 1.3U or 2.0 cable.


Just looking at the schematic for the OpenPort 1.3U now - pin 9 and 15 are connected together to the L-line, so I may need to put a new pin in and connect those two pins.

Maybe thats why Pin 9 needs removing :)


I'm also noticing a ferrite transformer by the looks of it? There's also an output from the LM555 to a VCC line, a cap, 2 diodes and a 1k resistor to the boot line - I think that's your 16v line.

Easiest way to test the voltage will be a multimeter.

Could you do that if you get time? :)


Just found this on the ECUFlash site too:


Guess that means that yes, it does generate 16v to that connector to bring the ECU into boot mode.

It may be possible to build a tiny add-on circuit using the same components as you specified earlier to step-up the voltages to 16~18V, have that on a switch in an inline switch to the boot pin :)

wintertidenz
24-03-2012, 10:28 PM
Unfortunately I don't have an OpenPort 1.3 cable - otherwise I would test the voltage.

I'm thinking that with pin 9 you can't address AYC - but if it was present and tied to pin 15... I'll pull the cable apart this afternoon and check things out.

I'm happy to try and build the circuit to generate 16v for the wiring - but I need to look at the flashing connector pinouts so I don't blow anything up. I would prefer to use something else to step up the voltage than a LM555 - I think that's why the OP 2.0 can only be used for flashing, because the draw required is more than the 555 can provide.

foxdie
24-03-2012, 11:46 PM
I have a multimeter, the next time I'm physically able to drive my car and reflash the ECU I'll connect it up :)

wintertidenz
25-03-2012, 12:49 AM
It seems that you need the OP flashing cable even if you want to read the ECU, especially from EvoScan.

TAR
25-03-2012, 11:29 AM
Interesting as this is.... its gone way off topic. Can a mod cut it and place the non related tuning stuff in its own thread please?

:happy:

foxdie
25-03-2012, 11:54 AM
I was thinking that too, maybe also rename this thread "Common tuning FAQ" or something :)

BCX
26-03-2012, 12:46 AM
Exactly, so holding it to GND would prevent initialising any other ECU, it's just a fluke that the EFI ECU responds if this is permanently grounded.

grounding it puts all devices on the bus into init mode, depending on what init addresss you use in the 5-baud init will determine what module talks on the bus.


Don't suppose you can confirm if the voltage applied to that pin is the same as battery voltage (+12V to +14V) or if it needs to be the higher band of +16V to +18V?

16v - tested with my scope, plus anything with flash memory usually needs around 16v to flash or burn the ROM again.


I thought not, I had the same issue with my VAGCOM (FTDI based) cable. I also tried moving Pin 15 (L-Line) to Pin 1 in the hope that would allow EvoScan to init the other ECUs.

Our ECUS dont use L-line at all. Pin 1 is purely to tell all modules in the car (that are on the obd bus) that to listen out for an init.



Also, Pin 9 is ETACS diagnostic output only i believe.

Shtiv
27-03-2012, 11:48 AM
Jason, I like your idea of this thread, but a couple of things I would say, the stock fuel pump is fine basically up to the turbo limit but only if they are perfect. Usually they are not perfect as they are now at least 11 years old. Symptoms of a worn fuel pump will be that it will run lean at high power and progressively get worse as the fuel heats up (eg a car sitting on a dyno) so I would say replace it with a Walbro so you know you have something new. Even if the stock pump is fine now, it probably won't be for much longer and unless you have a wideband connected up to the car permanently you won't know till it goes bang.

Stock boost solenoids are woeful and inconsistent between cars, any plumbing change has an effect, better to use a 3 port, like a grimspeed or ac delco etc. I've also seen factory solenoids work while the engine is cooler but as engine bay temps go up it stops working with the heat, they're old and crap, much like the fuel pumps.

I would argue apart from the fuel pump and boost control solenoid there are worthwhile gains with otherwise stock cars, obviously supporting mods help further. I'm not convinced on the need for a regulator either.

Also, of the 50plus VR4s I've tuned I have every single original map saved so if anyone want's a stock map I don't think there is a configuration I don't have.

When Merlin wrote the ECU flashing guide a lot of the definitions were incorrect or completely unknown, I'm pretty sure boost control was not known so that is why he doesn't give the addresses in the guide. For some reason everyone had the fuel maps back to front and apart from Mr Eurospec and me, nobody else tuning these cars noticed (don't ask me why) and a guy from Brisbane and me realised they were back to front, hence the guide maps looking wrong. (No one believed me either so it's a bit of a sore point). Anyway, as I understand it, Merlins intention with the guide is to tell you how to do stuff not give you the tools to do it necessarily, and kudos to him for putting it and the evo guides together.

And bill and I are almost there with the cleanup of the XML's, we just keep getting sidetracked other more interesting stuff like finding new addresses or in his case writing new code for the ROM

Reconstructor
27-03-2012, 04:09 PM
Nice and useful post foxdie. :)
I would like to ask you some additional questions:
What is the power, measured on wheels on stock autobox VR4?
What is the power limit of pump, injectors and turbos? To which boost stock maps can go?
As I know, the stock pump works on 6/7 Volts and they doubles when you hit the floor. Is this a problem for any aftermarket pump, or only specially designed pumps can handle this kind of regulation?

Shtiv
28-03-2012, 10:38 AM
On a mainline dyno stock auto will be about 120-125kW ATW (Doubt you have mainline dynos over there but they're our ultra consistent dyno), manual add about 10kW
power limit, about 200kW on that same dyno, but your pump had better be perfect which it probably isn't
Any pump can handle the regulation AFAIK but the flow is substantially reduced, even going from 12 to 14V makes a big flow difference but with stock turbo's a Walbro 255LPH has miles up it's sleeve so....

Reconstructor
28-03-2012, 01:34 PM
Wow, from 200 kw to 120. :( Not too efficient drivetrain.
Anyway, my first milestone will be achieving this stock power. Thanks for replay.

Shtiv
28-03-2012, 08:50 PM
Well not really, a manual 206kW stagea on the same dyno makes 135 at al four, make 160something with the front driveshafts removed.... Mainlines also read a little low, I wouldn't worry about what number it makes, I'd look at what you get before and after doing something....

foxdie
29-03-2012, 09:08 AM
Thanks for updating thread title :)

Mods, is there a way to stop a thread from being locked after no modifications? I'd like to be able to edit the original post to add more questions as they arrive :)

Reconstructor
29-03-2012, 02:13 PM
I wouldn't worry about what number it makes, I'd look at what you get before and after doing something....

That is correct. :) However, I will start by trying to bring back stock power. You mentioned fuel pump, turbos are obvious issue on any turbo engine, is there other problematic spots, which deteriorate the output?

wintertidenz
29-03-2012, 09:45 PM
To get back stock power look at the fuel pump, as mentioned earlier, then check and replace spark plugs, fuel filter, air filter.

I'd also check the intake system for leaks, especially the recirc valve and soft pipes. They will have deteriorated over the years and heat in the engine bay.

Also make sure your oils are fresh, and give the engine a good oil flush - this always seems to bring back some power.

Reconstructor
30-03-2012, 10:04 AM
Thanks, Daniel. What is the pressure in fuel rail on good pump?

Shtiv
05-04-2012, 09:30 AM
I'd also look at seals everywhere, amazing the number of boost leaks you'll find when you look. Often they make less than stock boost too due to the bleed solenoid being dead or the plumbing being changed a bit.

ianturbo
19-04-2012, 07:44 PM
I have just got a John Nutter flashed ECU off Wobble , (mine is a black plastic one) the one i got is a metal one with green plugins , it says at the beging of this thread that they are swapable , i get SRS ABS and Engine managment light on ?mine is manuel wobbles auto
, ?
ian

BCX
20-04-2012, 12:33 AM
Sounds like the wrong rom is flashed on it. Either change the periphery, or put correct rom.

ianturbo
21-04-2012, 01:50 PM
If i knew what you were on about id do it !!lol
ian

disco-ian
01-08-2012, 12:09 AM
Hi,
Looking at getting a later type ECU so I can play with flashing ROM's and changing fuel maps etc myself at a later date and keep finding ECU's that so not fall into the categories in the first post in this thread.

I keep finding people with ones for sale that have a silver case but with black plugs??

Any ideas where this falls into the scheme of things.

I have a silver case with green plugs at the moment (7201) however would like to be able to run with switchable maps at a later date so I can run a few degrees more advance for LPG.

Kind regards,
Ian

mmotors
28-02-2013, 12:27 PM
Just want to ask, please excuse me if already got similar thread, but nowhere find something about immobilizer and ECU swapping...
What if, for example, car equiped with 7201 swap with 7203 one, does it have to change the key and immobilizer too?

Kryton
28-02-2013, 12:33 PM
I'm fairly certain that any immobiliser fitted will be after market as it is not common to have them in Japan. You should be able to swap ECU without worrying about the immobiliser compatibly but sure someone else with confirm

swinks
28-02-2013, 01:04 PM
Just want to ask, please excuse me if already got similar thread, but nowhere find something about immobilizer and ECU swapping...
What if, for example, car equiped with 7201 swap with 7203 one, does it have to change the key and immobilizer too?
Immobilizer implemented into ecu was only European Market Galant n/a feature. No such thing in JDM vehicles, so just ecu swap.

darren1976
05-10-2013, 06:37 PM
Trying to get hold of you jason

Buzz Fuzz
20-09-2014, 01:09 PM
Hi guys,

First of all I have to admit that I'm a real noob at flashing roms on a cars ECU. I have done it several times with my phone and tablet.

Recently I have bought another ECU. My '97 VR-4 Saloon is equipped with a pre-facelift 7201 ECU and I wanted to get rid off that annoying speedlimiter and that manual boost controller the former owner had placed.

I have placed the H8/539-ECU in my car, took a laptop, The Openport 2.0 cable and installed EcuFlash.

When I check the cars properties (1997 / AT / ...), it's all correct. All I want is to remove the speed limiter by changing the speed in 300km/h and change the boost into 0.8 instead of 0.6. I saved the file but when i want to flash it a error occures.

2 images get compared and they are not equal and so the flashing ends and nothing has changed.

Is there a simple solution? Have I forgotten something? Do you need some extra information?

Kind regards, Serge.

swinks
20-09-2014, 03:05 PM
Solution: get yourself 7202 ecu.
H8 ecus from vr4 are PITA to flash, and in most times EcuFlash won't work with them using OpenPort 2.0.
Try get OpenPort 1.3U which is widely use by Evo 7-9 community for flashing their H8 ecu.

Buzz Fuzz
20-09-2014, 05:29 PM
That's of course not the answer I wanted to hear..OpenPort 1.3U would be the solution?

swinks
20-09-2014, 06:06 PM
Can't give you definitive answer.
But ecu's from Evo7-9 are based on H8 chip and they "work" only with EcuFlash using 1.3U cable. Version 2.0 works fantastic only on older 7202 chips (Evo 5-6) and newest Evo X ecu.
It's been quite often reported that flashing vr4 H8 ecu can be a PITA with EcuFlash. I know that few did succeed using MMCFlash.

Buzz Fuzz
20-09-2014, 06:25 PM
Allright, that means the ECU goes back to the previous owner..

Thanks alot.

TAR
20-09-2014, 07:04 PM
I believe that Tomasz is correct in stating that you need MMCFlash to reprogram an H8 ECU on a VR4.

:happy:

evo1rs
20-09-2014, 07:19 PM
Whilst on the subject, has anyone got an mmcflash module #1 for sale, cheaper than brand new? Or is it a license you purchase from evoscan?
I have 7201 and OP 1.3u for logging.
Only problem is I understand that I can't read ecu with this setup? Would need an OP 2.0 to read Ecu?

swinks
20-09-2014, 11:21 PM
MMCFlash is a usb dongle and license key combo.

evo1rs
24-09-2014, 10:32 AM
MMCFlash is a usb dongle and license key combo.
Thanks mate, I'll hold off on that for a bit then!

mitsiboyblue
26-10-2014, 12:42 PM
Hi there, just been reading your comments about flashing ECU, i have Manual Legnum VR4, 1998 have changed quite a lot to make some extra power, Much bigger inter cooler in fact the front of the car had to be significantly modified just to get in behind the bumper, decat , Walbro 255 fuel pump, K&N replacement filter, modified fuel regulator, electronic boost controller, HKS Fuel cut defender. all of which has made a difference but asking for your advise where to go next as all this tuning is very much a learning curve for me. Im thinking programmable wide band next but what are your recommendations.
Please can you advise me?
Kindest Regards
Dave 07970672331

foxdie
26-10-2014, 01:26 PM
Much bigger inter cooler in fact the front of the car had to be significantly modified just to get in behind the bumper, decat , Walbro 255 fuel pump, K&N replacement filter, modified fuel regulator, electronic boost controller, HKS Fuel cut defender.

All of those are a recipe for at least 300 HP and 350 Ft/Lbs torque. Fuel cut defenders however are far from ideal, they trick the ECU into thinking less air is going into the car, which can ultimately cause the engine to run leaner as it doesn't match fuelling to airflow.

Boost control via an EBC is also a good quick way to get big gains but again, it's taking control away from the ECU. By adjusting the boost with the ECU, it can dial it back if things get bad, whereas with an EBC all it can do is dial back timing. By that point its already knocking pretty bad and you risk causing damage to your engine.

What I'd recommend is this;

1. Remove the fuel cut defender ASAP and sell it on, it's not worth risking your engine for a few more HP with this thing
2. If you have a separate boost gauge, remove the EBC and sell that too. If you don't have a boost gauge, keep the EBC if it measures boost, just remove the solenoid from the turbo pipework
3. Book yourself in at the 2014 Dyno tuning meet - 22nd Nov in Nottinghamshire (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?72668-2014-Dyno-tuning-meet-22nd-Nov-in-Nottinghamshire) and I can tune your car properly, or
4. Get involved yourself by getting the tools to flash your ECU, raise the boost cut and target load and adjust fuelling / timing to suit :)

mitsiboyblue
04-09-2017, 12:34 AM
Hi all :)

This thread has been created to address commonly asked questions in relation to tuning EC5A (Galant VR-4) and EC5W (Legnum) cars. The questions answered here are aimed at those asking if something is possible, or to tuners starting out with little experience.

There are some questions that, when asked, you may receive a cold shoulder to. This is because, although not apparent to yourself, the answer is never simple nor practical. This is just a forewarning to expect a bad response to some questions but not to take it personally :)

1. If I send you my cars ROM, can you set it to run at such-and-such boost?

There are 2 reasons this is a poor question;
As our cars don't have a MAP sensor, engine performance calculations are done based on a perceived Load, this is a calculation the ECU does based on a number of factors such as how much air is passing by the MAF sensor, what temperature etc. It is not directly related to manifold pressure (aka "boost" and "vacuum").
Every car differs, even before it's left the factory they could differ slightly due to tolerances in manufacturing process, and once it's left the factory it's a free-for-all on how the car changes, factors such as servicing, how the car is treated etc all cause differences.
In short, it's impossible to tune a car to run at a specific amount of boost, and close to impossible to get it to run close to that figure without mapping it in person.

There is a similar question that often comes in that has both the above answered factored into it and some more;

2. Can you send me a ROM that gives me an extra 40 HP?

Asking for pre-tuned images for use on your (or anothers) car is a very bad idea. It's unreliable, often dangerous, but always downright lazy. Asking for a previously-tuned image so you can learn from it isn't so widely frowned upon, but it's still encroaching on something that someone else has invested time in preparing.

Also, there's no such thing as a ROM that gives you an extra "something" HP, as stated earlier, every car is different and requires it's own unique map to make the most of it and handle it's subtle differences that can often result in vast differences.

Here is a theoretical example; 3 identical cars all leave the factory supposedly tuned to 260 HP could meet up 5 years later and put on a dyno;
Car 1 makes 230 HP because it's been serviced poorly
Car 2 makes 250 HP due to natural wear/tear/age
Car 3 makes 265 HP because its fuel pump is failing causing the car to run leaner than intended
If I was to create a generic ROM image that ups the target load (ie. loosely how much extra boost to apply) by an additional 15%, it could have the following effects on the above cars;
Car 1 makes 240 HP because gains were harder to achieve due to poor servicing
Car 2 responds well and makes a respectable 280 HP
Car 3 briefly makes 290 HP before excessive knock causes the engine to die
In addition to this, asking for gains such as +40 HP is a pipe dream unless you have sufficient backing in your wallet for supporting mods. Lets say you're tuning a manual or a facelift auto, you're already starting with 280 HP (well, 276 HP for the pedantic), if you want +40 HP on top of that (320 HP) you've already exceeded what the fuel pump can deliver, and you're also close to the usable limit of our TD03 turbos.

Some people claim you don't need to upgrade the fuel pump before you ready the limit of the turbos, however that's if the fuel pump and pressure regulator are in perfect working order, which after 10-15 years is highly unlikely. If you're gonna ask for 320 HP out of a VR-4, it's highly recommended you invest in good supporting mods; Fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, intercooler, exhaust system and performance air filter. You also need to start thinking about cooling if you plan on running 320 HP for extended periods (such as on track days). Once and only when you've done that, you will definitely need the ECU tuning to suit the modifications.

Here's a nice example of that last point about reflashing after the modifications have been done, using the stock fuelling table after installing my fuelling modifications (Walbro GSS342 255 LPH fuel pump and a Sytec Fuel Pressure Regulator) I actually LOST power because the car was running significantly richer (AFRs of around 7-8 under WOT). I've had to set those matching entries in the fuelling table to around 12.5-13 just to bring the fuelling up to a safe 10.5-11.0 (and still I feel there's still power to be had by leaning it out to 11.5). I feel my "tune" is circa 320 HP, an upcoming dyno day will confirm that, however if my ROM was to be flashed onto a car without those fuelling mods, I'd be very surprised if it didn't go bang.

3. Can you lean out my cruise for better economy?

As of March 2012, not by a reflash, the ECU is set to match 0.5V from the lambda sensor but as of yet the location of this value in the ROM is undetermined. And if / when it does become possible the benefits won't be safely usable.

Stock narrowband oxygen / lambda sensors output a voltage signal between 0-1V with the stoichiometric air-fuel mixture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air%E2%80%93fuel_ratio#Engine_management_systems) of 14.7:1 being around 0.5V, there is very little room to change this because the change can often be very sharp (here (http://www.ztechz.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/narrowbando2.jpg) is a very optimistic narrowband graph), if you were to aim for 14.9:1 the voltage would be around 0.2V, not leaving much room between potentially running much leaner.

It's fairly well adopted (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?59362-Safe-lean-cruise./) that a cruise AFR of around 15.2:1 is beneficial to fuel economy on 8G VR-4s, the only safe way to achieve this is to use either a wideband kit (such as the Innovate LC-1 or MTX-L), or a fuelling computer, that has a programmable narrowband emulation.

That said, economy benefits can be had by advancing timing a few degrees (no more) around the cruise areas.

4. What ECU do I have? Can it be reflashed?

The following is correct as of March 2012;

7201 - Silver metal casing with green connectors - Commonly found on Pre-facelifts - Requires EcuFlash to edit ROM, requires a Tactrix OpenPort 1.3U or 2.0 cable to reflash the ECU, requires MMCFlash USB Module #1 to do the flashing

H8/539 - Black plastic casing with black connectors - Fairly rare and straddled the Pre-facelift and Facelift switch - Requires EcuFlash to edit ROM, requires a Tactrix OpenPort 1.3U or 2.0 cable to reflash the ECU, requires MMCFlash USB Module #1 to do the flashing

7202 - Black plastic casing with black connectors - Commonly found on early Facelifts - Requires EcuFlash to edit ROM and flash, requires a Tactrix OpenPort 2.0 cable to reflash the ECU

7203 - Black plastic casing with black connectors - Commonly found on late Facelifts - Requires EcuFlash to edit ROM and flash, requires a Tactrix OpenPort 2.0 cable to reflash the ECU

Links: EcuFlash (http://www.evoscan.com/free-ecu-rom-downloads)
MMCFlash USB Module #1 (http://www.evoscan.com/evoscan-gps-obdii-cables/details/32/1/performance-vehicle-pc-diagnostic-interfaces/mmcflash-software-for-mitsubishi,-kia,-hyundai,-suzuki,-mazda-reflashing)
OpenPort 1.3U Cable (http://www.evoscan.com/evoscan-gps-obdii-cables/details/15/1/performance-vehicle-pc-diagnostic-interfaces/evoscan-13u-universal-usb-datalogging-and-reflashing-cable)
OpenPort 2.0 Cable (http://www.evoscan.com/evoscan-gps-obdii-cables/details/17/1/performance-vehicle-pc-diagnostic-interfaces/tactrix-openport-20-universal-usb-cable---yes-in-stock)

5. Can my ECU use another ROM and/or have mods / switchable maps?

Again, as of March 2012;

7201 - This ECU can only run ROM images specifically built for the 7201, basic tuning can be done such as raising the boost / fuel cut threshold, adjusting fuelling / timing and boost control

All others (the H8/539, 7202 and 7203) - These ECUs can all interchange ROM images, and in addition to the above basic tuning they also support Kenneths ECU mods.

Kenneth has released 2 ROMs that add additional features: v1.x that adds switchable anti-lag / launch control / flat shifting / CEL-on-knock - link (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?59075-Kenneth-s-ECU-Mods-V1.03)
v2.x that adds 8 switchable maps and CEL-on-knock, with 8 unique Fuel / Ignition Timing / Boost Control tables that are interchangeable with the switchable maps - link (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?61071-Kenneth-s-ECU-Mods-V2-0)

6. Can I swap ECUs?

Yes, but only if you flash the correct ROM image and follow this truth table;
All VR-4 engine ECUs are compatible with manual VR-4s, regardless of what VR-4 it came from
Engine ECUs from automatic cars with TCL are compatible with all VR-4s
Engine ECUs from automatic cars without TCL may have problems if put into an automatic car with TCL
Engine ECUs from manual cars may have problems if put into an automatic car (either with or without TCL)
I say "may have problems" because it's unclear given so many different PCB revisions if the pins for TCL or auto ECU communication are connected internally to the processor.

More questions will appear here later, watch this space ;) Thats fantastic reading for me i really appropriate the link, very informative. So.... i have 7202 from Manual and 7203 from Auto without TCL. Both black plastic boxes / both black connectors.
Which of these would you use given the choice when tuning a manual vr4? I'm asking this just incase there are any additional benitits if using 7203.
And my last question.....
Who can remap/flash this for me?



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Confused
04-09-2017, 07:09 PM
No differences between the two types, they'll be updated with the same software if you want the multiple maps and launch control, anti lag etc.

As for who can, foxdie is the most experienced here, but I also have the kit to do so, and I've been learning from Jason recently :)

mitsiboyblue
04-09-2017, 10:07 PM
No differences between the two types, they'll be updated with the same software if you want the multiple maps and launch control, anti lag etc.

As for who can, foxdie is the most experienced here, but I also have the kit to do so, and I've been learning from Jason recently :)Thats great to know, whats this going to cost

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foxdie
04-09-2017, 10:19 PM
That's beyond scope of this conversation. Will drop you a list of prices.

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mitsiboyblue
04-09-2017, 10:23 PM
That's beyond scope of this conversation. Will drop you a list of prices.

Sent from my SM-G930F using TapatalkYes that would be best, sorry dont mean to cross any thresholds here.

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Wodjno
18-09-2017, 12:27 AM
That's beyond scope of this conversation. Will drop you a list of prices.


Me too please ;)

Paul C
11-05-2019, 06:05 AM
How times have changed since 2006 tuning, mapping. I'll dig around in the shed to see if I have any old ECU's that maybe of use to someone. Keep up the good work.

Judder
12-06-2019, 11:07 PM
How times have changed since 2006 tuning, mapping. I'll dig around in the shed to see if I have any old ECU's that maybe of use to someone. Keep up the good work.

Hi Paul

I've been reading all of the ECU threads as I'm thinking of getting a spare ECU to try out the KS Mods ECU flash file on, and saw that you might have a spare one or two

Would definitely be interested in sorting out something for them if you have one or two spare!

Paul C
13-06-2019, 10:39 AM
Hi Paul

I've been reading all of the ECU threads as I'm thinking of getting a spare ECU to try out the KS Mods ECU flash file on, and saw that you might have a spare one or two

Would definitely be interested in sorting out something for them if you have one or two spare!

I didn't realise my inbox was full but have seen you have tried to send a message.

I work away and since I wrote the above I still haven't been home. I'll be back in about 2 weeks and will dig the shed out to see what i can find. I haven't owned a VR4 for about 12 year but I'm a hoarder. If I have an ECU it will probably be for the auto in the metal case...... if it is there you can have it free.

Give me a couple of weeks and I will let you know.

dantfer
13-06-2019, 02:16 PM
i second this if theres any more than one free im more than happy to buy one

Judder
13-06-2019, 03:52 PM
I work away and since I wrote the above I still haven't been home. I'll be back in about 2 weeks and will dig the shed out to see what i can find. I haven't owned a VR4 for about 12 year but I'm a hoarder. If I have an ECU it will probably be for the auto in the metal case...... if it is there you can have it free.

Give me a couple of weeks and I will let you know.

Awesome - thanks Paul - I have an auto VR4 so that would be brilliant and much appreciated :)

Paul C
08-12-2019, 12:16 PM
6 months later- I couldn't find one. I have only been back to uk once in this time. Cheers Paul

russhowe
26-07-2021, 06:45 PM
Sorry for perhaps the daft question, but I ask mainly for clarification more than anything

I've got 2x PFL vr4's that are very close in registration date, but the chassis numbers are notably different
EC5W0009510 vs EC5W0010354


9510 apparently has had the ECU fettled with, where as the other, 10354 as far as I know is bone stock

Can I simply plug and play in terms of an ECU swap to get the benefits from the fettled with ECU? Assuming they are of the same ECU type etc

I was concerned about immobiliser issues as well but that seems to have been answered above, and I conclude that it's not an issue

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EDIT: ADDED CHASSIS NUMBERS

TAR
26-07-2021, 10:55 PM
If there are no supporting mods on the car with the tuned ECU it should be fine to swap it out. Remember that the tune would likely have been set specifically for the car it was in so may give different results. It's always best to at least be measuring lambda to make sure you don't run lean. :happy:

Nick Mann
27-07-2021, 12:05 PM
9510 was completed in the third week of October 1996, 10354 was the first week of November. Certainly quite close in birthdays!

I'd agree with Tim. If the ECU for 9510 has been played with, it might be very specific for that car and it's supporting mods. To be safe you'd want to be measuring boost levels and air/fuel ratios if you swap it to 10354.

russhowe
27-07-2021, 12:43 PM
9510 was completed in the third week of October 1996, 10354 was the first week of November. Certainly quite close in birthdays!

I'd agree with Tim. If the ECU for 9510 has been played with, it might be very specific for that car and it's supporting mods. To be safe you'd want to be measuring boost levels and air/fuel ratios if you swap it to 10354.Wow, thanks nick, I knew they were close in age but jeez!!

9510 had an HKS mushroom filter, which has actually broken where it connects to the maf
My intention for 10354 was to use the standard airbox with a K&N panel filter

9610 also had a "Longlife" stainless steel cat back exhaust, which I've already removed and that will be going onto 10354 next week

Aside from that, 9510 had no other supporting mods. So to that end, I'm thinking I should be OK, right? Straight swap and turn the key..?

10354 has a hks boost controller, which actually doesn't work. I looked at the wiring under the dash and it's an (expletive) mess!!!
Tiny wires spot soldered onto spades and wrapped in electrical tape.. its all coming out for sure and going in the bin,
Also has a turbo timer, which again, doesn't seem to work

My intention is to turn 10354 into a somewhat respectable, mostly factory example

Interestingly 10354 has featured here in the past, search for "L9 NUM"

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Confused
27-07-2021, 12:50 PM
If the ECU for 9510 has been tuned based upon the mushroom filter, then I wouldn't trust it as far as I can throw it.

Best bet would be to pop along to one of our Garage/Dyno Weekends (https://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?80451-Garage-Dyno-Weekend-11-12-September-2021) where myself and foxdie will be there, we can do everything properly, with no guesswork!

russhowe
27-07-2021, 01:12 PM
I'll hold off on swapping the ecus for now then.
My main reason for doing it was that 10354 doesn't throw me back in the seat when I floor it hard to overtake something. Yes she goes well, but given the specs (twin turbo v6, yadda yadda yadda) I'm actually a little underwhelmed

I reckon my 2ltr tdi 140 passat would keep up with it for the most part at the moment.

Just checked the dates for that, unfortunately I'll either be in work (taxi driver) or having my son on the weekends.

I'll see how things go, but I'd certainly love to attend and mingle with other owners, see what's what and learn some more along the way

9510 will eventually be stripped and scrapped, the shell is as soft as cheddar cheese in a lot of areas.

Watch out for a future thread where I'll be advertising it officially
Drivetrain is very low mileage, odometer reads 95,500 and I belive this was properly converted to miles too
So with a full fluid change and a damn good service (having been sat for years) I dare say it'll be a very attractive prospect for someone in need of an engine or gearbox or whatever

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