2,5L SOHC Turbo Mod?

[Galant_martin]

Hello

are there any people out there who think/try a Turbo mod on an NA V6?

Bolt on with the original compression rate?

I hope my english understandable ;)

greetings from Austria

[Nick Mann]

Not that I am aware of. Although people have swapped 6A13TT engines for 6A13 in the past, search for vr2.

[MarkSanne]

There is one V6 SOHC in NL that has been modified with an Eaton compressor. He did change pistons and other engineparts. Power output is/was around 280hp! I've driven it and it's quite something else compared to a Turbo-ed V6 (VR2) or a true twinturbo VR4 AWD. It felt very very fast and the sound of the compressor was awesome!

[Galant_martin]

Yea i know Vr2 ;)

But in my head there is the idea of a single turbo 6A13.. just in theory..

btw the 6A13TT pistons would fit to lower the compression?

The block is the same so why not? not going to 280hp but maybe 220.. i know that the DOHC would be better but for lower power the SOHC can do that or im wrong?

EDIT

I dont want a compressor cuz more ppl working/ modding/ tuning with turbos i think there is more know how ;)

but i know the V6 compressor

[Galant_martin]

BTW what would happen if i only mount a turbocharger to one cyl. bank?

[crazydriver81]

there are people who have done single turbo conversions to a 6A13 engine, but all were 6A13TT before.

If you mount a turbo to one cyl bank only you will not have enough spool to have constant pressure. That is senseless.

Further the block itself may be the same between SOHC and DOHC Turbo but oilpan design etc. may be different. Easiest way is, to swap a 6A13tt in. Relatively easy job as much is plug & play. Been there, done that...

[Galant_martin]

The oilpan from TT has the connections for turbo oil lines or?

The exhaust manifolds from DOHC would not fit i think..
My car is a 2000, so with 120kw not 118kw..

That would be the easyest way i think only rework the exhaust manifold to connect the 2 turbos..

I know that a swap is not as hard but i like the idea of power up the SOHC.. if the engine would blow up than we all know its crab ;)

In theory i need

2 Turbos
Manifolds who fit
All oil& watercool line
Modified Motor management
Air intake pipe
Wideband lambda

what did i forget ? ;)

Sry i hope u all dont hate me now cuz i wanna talk bout some ideas ;)

[horndog]

what did i forget ? ;)
Compression ratio? NA has a much higher ratio than the turbo,



Sry i hope u all dont hate me now cuz i wanna talk bout some ideas ;)
talk about new ideas is good - pushes the boundaries

[Galant_martin]

Can i run on normal NA compression with lower boost?

What is normal boost? 0,6bar?

NA= 9,0:1
TT=8,5:1

am i right?

[scott.mohekey]

This is something I've been thinking about too. I have both an NA block and a TT block, and I'm in the process of porting and rebuilding a set of TT heads with the uprated springs and reground cams that Adam.Findley organized. I've been wondering if there's any point using the NA block instead of the TT block, and making a really good tune to make use of the higher compression.

[jayp]

You'll want to lower the compression ratio. I looked into overcharging a na v6 mondeo a few years ago and was told by pretty much every supplier of compressors and tuners not to go above a couple of psi with the standard compression or your just gonna desperate the heads from the block.
I know when this has been done before on straight 4's they used to use like a 5mm thick copper head gasket rather than changing pistons rods and cranks.

Sent from my HTC Desire S

[Galant_martin]

Are there any thicker gaskeds for the V6 or replace the pistons?

[jayp]

Off the shelf? I have no idea
There's always custom made, the only limit with this sort of thing is the depths of your pockets.
The real question is do you want to risk a lot of money on something that may or may not work, or if it does not be useable as a daily driver due to the way it makes its power, reliability etc.. Especially when there are easier more well trodden paths?

Sent from my HTC Desire S

[jayp]

Sorry if my earlier post sounded negative.
If I was to contemplate this I would think about maybe a single turbo running off both banks and have it low pressure. Two reasons for this.
1. Simplifies the pipe work, pre turbo intake and post intake, the exhaust side would easier as well.
2. Rather than trying to increase power with boost I would be thinking about trying to increase the volumetric efficiency of the engine. Much like what they did with the early turbo diesels, using the turbo to clear out more of the exhaust gasses from each cylinder as opposed to trying to cram extra air in.

If I was going route 2 I would probably be thinking more about a small belt driven supercharger. But these can be stupidly expensive. But the balance between an expensive blower and cheaper pipe work compared to cheap blower and potentially very expensive manifolds if you pay someone to make them up. Might cancel each other out.

Edit: here's a link to the sort of blower I'm talking about. This company were very helpful when I thought about doing my mondeo.
http://www.procharger.com/superchargers.shtml

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[psbarham]

the 0.5:1 comp ratio difference will make next to no difference at all, as long as you don't don't go daft on the boost.

there have been lots of different manufacturers that have done low pressure turbos on high cr engines with some good results. I think the v6 will be a good one, in fact i'm so convinced Myself and danzul are already starting one for his v6

[Galant_martin]

Thanks for your tipps and ideas ;)

So i should get the two exhaust manifolds and a good welder ;)

I think that would be a nice project.. what turbo would u use?

And i dont want a sc cuz i dont wanna have even more belts^^

[jayp]

Manifolds yes welder yes! Unless you can weld yourself? Would help keep costs down and its always a useful skill to have!

As for turbos, do you want 2 smaller ones like a vr4 or one larger one?
2 smaller = less lag but more pipework (exhaust, inlet outlet, oil, water)
1 larger = more lag, nut less pipework ( would have to be run From both banks tho)

Agree with sc decision, I think this is why so many people don't use them, pluss mounting in tight engine bays can be a nightmare.



Sent from my HTC Desire S

[Galant_martin]

So definitifly no sc!! ;)

No im only able to weld easy things.. i know the basics and i have no own welder..

I would prefere a single turbo cuz its more easy than two..

And even a single turbo with lower boost would give a kick or? ;)

What type of turbo would u take? Manufactur?

[jayp]

Even a single would make a difference, I'm not really up to speed on which turbo's if I'm honest, not done the research before but you would need one that can flow enough for a certain boost pressure, the td-03's on the vr4 tend to run out of puff around 1.3bar ish I'm led to believe so I gues one of them could flow enough for 0.5bar, this is only guess work tho. I'm sure someone else with more knowledge will chip in soon tho.

Sent from my HTC Desire S

[Galant_martin]

So one would be enough for a "light" SOHC turbo mod?

And how big should be the Intercooler? And i prefere a FMIC or?

[jayp]

Like i said that's pure guess work. Please don't take what I have said as accurate, I'm a mechanic by trade, but tuning and modification is a hobby. You would need to look into the amount of air required normally measured in CFM (cubic feet per minute) and match that to a turbo.
But logically I don't see why a single td-03 wouldn't do the job. It depends how much boost you want to have.

As for intercooler, normally bigger is better, but it needs.to be a good design to have as little pressure drop across it as possible, but still be able to cool the air as much as possible. Fmic would be the easiest option, obviously if you went Subaru style.you would need to modify the bonnet to match and have the room to start with and liquid to air would be harder to plum in, plus space again.

Sent from my HTC Desire S

[crazydriver81]

Well, why not start with off the shelf parts where possible?

Take VR-4 manifolds plus turbos and downpipes should be an easy on e to try things out. You can lower the boost a bit to 0.5 bar or similar and try how its running.

If it's promising, you may consider a single turbo conversion, which will involve a lot of welding.

As for the ignition and so on, you may stick to the V6 NA ignition system. Only thing you need to care about is, how to control the boost solenoid, when max boost is reached.

I would assume, due to the smaller diameter of the NA manifolds, that the TD03 turbos will not spool that good, hence they will not reach the 0.6 bar as on a VR-4.

But that is also guess work. I have seen a V6 SOHC Turbo in Japland once, but I do not know how it was done.

To sum that up:
- get some VR-4 manifolds and turbos second hand
- get some boost pipework inc. intercooler from a VR-4 second hand
- get some cooler spark plugs (NGK BKR7EIX or BKR8EIX)
- get a solution for boost control
- put it together and try how it's running

This should be your cheapest option as the main difference between NA and TT is the ignition system and boost control. If can leave the ignitioan system as is, this would save you a lot of hazzle. Good luck!

[Galant_martin]

Sounds good ;)

Can i control the boost via a electronic? To limit the max pressure to ~0,4 bar

What are the cheapest controllers who do that work?

[Galant_martin]

Or just a manual boost controller with a gauge would do the same job or?

[crazydriver81]

Don't know, honestly. Maybe an adjustable blow off valve and a boost gauge will do the job as well?

Can MBC's (manual boost controllers) also turned to lower the boost? I thought they can only be used to raise boost from the stock level??? Can anyone confirm?

Oh, and I forgot, you need to solve the way to connect oil and water lines to and from the turbos. At least the oil lines for the front turbo will not fit without the oil filter mount from a VR-4! So you will need the oil/water lines from a VR-4 as well.

[Galant_martin]

Yea but i can modifiy the oil line from NA if i do singleturbo?

In two days i meet a guy who is a metal worker, he can weld all things ;)
To bad that im only electrician..

I think a MBC can lower the boost if he is mounted between wastegate and turbine.. than he opens the wastegate more so the exhaust turbin gets lower RPM->
compressor wheel spins lower->
lower boost

am i wrong?

[Anderz]

Sounds interesting, have thought of this aswell, as I have spare manifolds and td03:s an a NA galant :) But here we have no chance of passing MOT after that, so best to forget it. An MBC cannot be used to make lower boost than the stock wastegate actuator pressure. A boost controller raises boost by limiting the pressure reaching the wastegate actuator.

Your best bet is to modify the wastegate actuator to a lower pressure. But it would indeed be cool to control the WG actuators with electrical motors/servos, that would give total control of the boost:)
what is the stock wastegate pressure for the td03:s, 0,5 bar?

[Galant_martin]

Yes thats true.. the yearly car check here would be hard too with that tuning..
But thats another piont ;)

And if we use the normal wastegate pressure and let the blow off valve lower the boost?

[Anderz]

That is also possible. But personally I would modify the WG actuators, it only needs a suitable springcoil to help it open a little bit earlier

[Galant_martin]

So u wanna say thats more easy to change the spring?

So why not haha.. i just looked under my hood too see how we could do the single turbo thing.. i think i should change the fans to SPAL fans or?

[Galant_martin]

So now its weekend and ive been reading something about turbochargers ;)

Vr4 stock use TD04?

TD04 9B 265 CFM ( smallest)
to
TDO4L 15C 390 CFM (biggest)

so my single turbo should be around 500-550 CFM? Than i would see to buy a

TDO5H-16G 505 CFM

am i right ?

[jayp]

Vr4's use td03's mate, the td04 fron subaru's are often talked about as an upgrade if keeping the twin setup

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[Galant_martin]

Oh sorry ;)

I dont finde correct specs, how much cfm brings a TD03? 200?

So i need max. ~400cfm, a

TDO5H-14B 405 CFM

thats the same what is used in old eclipse i thing.. 13b or 14b..

[psbarham]

td 04's go to a 20K.

they are good for 600+ as a pair, just ask mclaren

[Galant_martin]

psbarham

sry i dont know what u mean..

should i not add the two turbos if i wanna build a single turbo?

I only want 200-250hp out of my SOHC engine..

greetings

[psbarham]

psbarham

sry i dont know what u mean..

should i not add the two turbos if i wanna build a single turbo?

I only want 200-250hp out of my SOHC engine..

greetings

I'm saying there are logins in the td04 range that will deliver the flows you need.

[Galant_martin]

So i need to get one used (cheap^^) TD04 turbo to see how i can mount it..
In ebay there a some but i have no idea which i should use.. different flanges..if anyone has good links please post ;)

In the next days i must go under my car to remove rust so i take a clear look how i can do my mods.. damn rust...

A wideband lambda would be a must have too or? Bosch LSU 4.2 would cost about 90€ the cheapest i found.
A point of my project is too get it as cheap as doable :)

My breaks would do the job if i have the big breakdiscs? (for 15" + rims ) And i use EBC discs and Redstuff breaks.

[Ghost_2008]

You'll have to consider additional mods to the fueling system, if your upping the air intake then you'll have to manage the air to fuel ratio, so delivery and monitoring.

You'll need a wide band lambda and a means to adjust the fueling, so a stand alone or a piggy back ECU... you might find you start to be limited by the standard injectors..... this you will not know until your set up and testing..... running lean will destroy your engine.....

You could look at FTO 2.0l non-Mivec turbo conversions, you will be able to draw similarities..... it's been done more so than on a sohc 2.5l.....

In any case you could end up with a lot of trial and error, I would speak with Ben from Eurospec as they have done a number of conversions and should be able to give you some sound advice...... good luck

[Galant_martin]

Thanks for your good tips ;)

I think i have found a person who welds pretty good (he closed a rust hole very good and has a welding device in his garage)

So the biggest things would be the exhaust pipes and turbo mounts.. ive googled and looked in ebay much times.. bit im indecisive which one i take cuz they all have diffrent typse of flanges..

Can u show me what u would take/have?

[Galant_martin]

Hello ;) soo cuz i have not much time right now i was busy..

Ive readed more about a belt driven Supercharger.. and yes the belt system would be much more easyer i think!

Im really not sure what would be better.. SC is good cuz it has big NM's with low rpm's.

And i think im able to built a belt system much better than weld and try out exhaust pipeings...

Btw can i install any other ignition systems?

[Galant_martin]

Today i found some pice of 1,25" Steel pipe.. would this be good for building an Y adaptor from both cylinder banks?

[Galant_martin]

Hello

i would get a used turbo from a Subaru, a TF035, no shaft play, looks good... Anybody can say if that would be a good choice?

greetings

[Nick Mann]

None of us are really able to help you with specifics, as it is something that we have not seen done.

The supercharger route makes more sense in my mind, for the same reasons you have said. You just need to find somewhere to mount it, which will be the tricky bit for that option.

I personally think you will be putting a lot of effort and money into making a small power difference to your car. It probably makes more sense to do an engine swap for one that is designed to run big power - the 4G63T evo engine and the 6A13TT VR4 engine should both fit. There was also a 2.0l V6 Mivec Galant in some countries, with 200 bhp. All those engines have been fitted to 2WD european supplied Galants so we know they will fit and there are more likely to be people here who can help through experience.

[Galant_martin]

Okay.. yea but its more easy to get a turbo legally in my car papers than a engine swap..

The Tf35 is too small, i now aiming for a 14b or a 16g.. both have enough cfm, personally i think 16g is better cuz his high cfm, so if i run lower boost he has enough cfm at not max boost..

If i get one cheap ill buy V2A pipes for exhaust side..

[Galant_martin]

Hello @ all

My turbo arrived yesterday.. TD05HR- 16G6 10,5T; enough cfm @ low boost :) but i think the internal wastegate is defect.. Its kinda loose.. I dont think it would close right. And no warranty coz it was a private seller :(
The repair costes would be much if its possible, so maybe i use an external WG and weld the internal..

I upload a video tomorrow, so u can see how loose is it.

Positive thing is, no shaft play, no oil leaks and cheap :)

EDIT
Here's the videoclip

http://img233.imageshack.us/i/file11835s.mp4/