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valmes
24-12-2004, 02:55 PM
I am in a process of deciding for a bigger pair of turbos for my VR-4.

After some researching It came down to either pair of GT2530 (which are kind of pricey!) or a pair of “old style” Garrett T3 turbos for a more reasonable amount of money.

Playing with various formulas, turbo matching programs and compressor maps I came to a conclusion that a pair of Garrett T3 (60 or 50 trim and .63 or .48 exhaust A/R) will be quite a good match to our engine. They can provide almost 60~70 Lb/min (900~1000 cfm) of “rated air flow at 2PR” (or roughly at 1 bar boost pressure) and most of the points for our engine lie in the 70% of compressor efficiency for up to 1,5-1,8(!) bar of boost, with 5000-7400 range getting into max compressor efficiency at 1bar (74-75%). The best part of it is price! Remanufactured T3 go for 400-600$! New ones are from 700$ and up… Compare those prices to GT2530 that start from 1500$! *(prices for a single turbocharger)

GT2530
(+): They can provide good amount of airflow and generally believed of being capable of a wider “usable range”, can spool up fast (there are no exact figures… but everyone keeps saying so…). Utilize a new ball bearing design and use a ceramic compressor wheel…
(-):They are hard to repair, and the “new design” is more prone to failures… ceramic compressor wheels are less durable then the old style steel compressor wheels and ball bearing turbos require modifications to oil supply lines, since they are quite “sensitive” to oil pressure and are less tolerant to heavy loads (then old style turbos). Price is also a set off…

T3
(+): Good flow. Can be remanufactured. Cheap. Tolerant to abuses.
(-): Will probably lag more then GT2530 and are not of the “new design”.

PS: Either of those (pair of)turbos can safely produce 450-550 BHP on our engines with a maximum power closer to 700 BHP. That is, if everything else can cope with that kind of power!

PS2: I hope this information could be helpful to someone out there… and hope I didn’t make too many mistakes :) ! I am no “turbo expert”, so take this information at your own risk :).
Looking forward to get input from Real Experts on this matter…

-LegnumVR4-
24-12-2004, 11:24 PM
I've been chatting to a turbo guy about a setup for the VR4's. Came up with the Garrett T25's (not sure they are the samething as the GT2530) they are the same ones used on the 300zx. He's said that the T25's are a good turbo u can customize to suit the engine as they have a lot of areas u can move to fit large compressor wheels, bearings etc, and they are compact.

The guys in the US know alot about the Garrett turbos so they can be sourced from there and built to what u want. Maybe jump on a US 300zx fourm to get info.

enigma
25-12-2004, 09:53 AM
Very interesting! I too have come across the GT25s as a good match, but as you say they are not cheap! T3s I think are the way to go, just need someone to stop messing around and make a manifold now......... :$

valmes
25-12-2004, 11:10 AM
Lack of custom made manifolds is what stopping VR-4s from going up in price! :) ;)

One place replied with a quote of 800$ per side!!! :rolleyes5 Will have to search more... or fabricate them on my own using either old ones (manifolds) or getting set of extractors from NA 6a13 and welding T3 flanges on them. Have to find a good welder first though... :)
(May be "BDA fabrication LTD" is up for a job?) ;) :D

Another option is to use custom made adapter plates (this option seems to be cheaper and easier to implement) to fit those T3 turbos to our stock manifolds... but there could be some "spacing" problems... I/C piping will also require some mods (in either option).

-LegnumVR4-
25-12-2004, 11:31 AM
Can u weld to cast iron?

I have a rear manifold here, all u would need to do is trace the outline and holes for the bolts and get it lazer cut. I can get the outline if anyone needs it or even lazer cut.
I also have the gasket for the T25 here, can do the same for that as well to give u and idea of sizing. I would say making the custom manifold wouldn't be very hard at all, big Dave can handle that easy, just sorting out the position where the turbo is to mount to it. I found for the rear turbo u want to keep it close to the engine and towards the brake pump to allow enough room for a 2.5 or even a 3" dump pipe :D

I haven't spent much time with the front turbo, looks like it wouldn't be too much problem there :lipsrseal

U could pick up some cheap second hand turbos and recon them, just as long as the housings etc are fine and not cracked. Make up the oil and coolant lines from braided lines for easy fitting.

valmes
25-12-2004, 01:55 PM
Guidelines for Welding Cast Iron (http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/castironpreheat.asp)

enigma
25-12-2004, 02:12 PM
If I was going to make manifolds it would be stainless flanges cut one for the block and one for the turbo, then custom bent stainless tube to make a pretty manifold!

The flanges would be about £75 for the lot and the tube would run to maybe £50. It would be very easy in my opinion and when my engine is out and on the stand in the garage............

:lipsrseal

valmes
25-12-2004, 02:45 PM
:) So, how much would be the total for custom made VR4 exhaust manifolds (front and back) with T3 flanges with BDA sign on them? ;)

"HKS Stainless Steel tubular turbo exhaust manifolds offer maximum exhaust flow for increased turbo spool up & phenomenal flow capacity. Fabricated of polished SUS304 stainless steel and flanged to mount an HKS wastegate for unsurpassed boost management."

"DC Sports Turbo manifolds and Competition Pipes are available in 100% T-304-stainless steel only, and are for use on Off-Road vehicles only (not C.A.R.B. exempt)."

Whats 304 stainless steel anyway?

AllBeItMine
13-01-2005, 04:19 AM
you guys ever look at the TD04 9 or 13g's as a viable option? They come out of the GTO's (9'gs) and GSR's(13'gs) and in new zealand you can get them second hand for about $200nzd each.

As for manifolds, i would say you would be looking at a complete custom job as you would most likely need to mount the turbos closer to the engine to get them to fit.

valmes
13-01-2005, 10:40 AM
Turbos rated at 2PR:

Stock VR-4(6a13) - 275CFM
TD04-9B - 275CFM
TD04-13G - 360CFM
T3 60 trim - 490CFM

None of the last 3 turbos are "bolt on" replacement.
They all would require custom made manifolds and mods to your downpipes.

Apart from just CFM numbers you really have to look at CompressorMaps to get a picture of what to expect from them...

Hope this answers your question. The rest is up to you! :)

AllBeItMine
14-01-2005, 12:17 AM
Turbos rated at 2PR:

Stock VR-4(6a13) - 275CFM
TD04-9B - 275CFM
TD04-13G - 360CFM
T3 60 trim - 490CFM

None of the last 3 turbos are "bolt on" replacement.
They all would require custom made manifolds and mods to your downpipes.

Apart from just CFM numbers you really have to look at CompressorMaps to get a picture of what to expect from them...

Hope this answers your question. The rest is up to you! :)

You think the TD025's (stock 6A13) and the TD04 9g's flow the same? that can't be right. the TD04's are a visually much bigger turbo, let alone the actually specs.

I would think the TD025's would flow nearly 275cfm at decent boost.

here is a map of the TD04 13g http://www.stealth316.com/images/td04-13g-raw.gif

valmes
14-01-2005, 04:50 AM
Look at the CMap of 9bs and plot demand lines/dots for our engine, you will see the how close they are to our stock units.
Some TD04 perform better then TD05, so do overlap other families and brands of turbochargers. So why are you surprised that our TC03 units flow same amount, as bigger 9bs from GTO/3000GT?

There is still no definite answer as to what our turbos are. On 6a12 engine the turbos are clearly marked as TD025 and they do look very much like ours (6a13)... but others (like people in Majestic Turbos) said they are actually TC03 family turbos.

PS: I am not saying this information is 100% correct... use it at your own risk :)

-LegnumVR4-
14-01-2005, 12:39 PM
http://www.pro-art.co.jp/rosso/kouza/legnum.html

Scroll down the bottom u'll see what turbos we use. Can use a translater program to read the other info.

Mante
22-01-2005, 04:35 AM
Not to derail any ideas BUT after thinking of a very similar car by nissan that is also 2.5L and AWD..the skyline most owners dump the twin setup for nicely sized Single turbo application. Say if a quick spooling 20g such as the Buschur 20ghttp://www.buschurracing.com/br20g_small.jpg A single setup would be much cheaper to setup/install and most importantly TUNE.


This specially modified TD05/6 Hybrid 20G is the quickest spooling 500+ HP turbo we have ever run. It has run 10.70's at 130+mph and made 450hp to the wheels with our proven combinations... all without the aid of nitrous! This was the turbo we used to run the first-ever 10sec blast in an AWD DSM! Tym Switzer - 10.98@124.79 1991 Eagle Talon - Full weight, full interior, full exhaust, etc. August 1997 Please see part #'s 60040-BR and 60050-BR on this page for Porting and Clipping options.

valmes
22-01-2005, 04:07 PM
Not to derail any ideas BUT after thinking of a very similar car by nissan that is also 2.5L and AWD..the skyline most owners dump the twin setup for nicely sized Single turbo application. Say if a quick spooling 20g such as the Buschur 20g A single setup would be much cheaper to setup/install and most importantly TUNE.

I agree, for I6 (Nissan Inline 6 cylinder twin turbocharged engine - RB26DETT) it is cheaper and easier to go single turbo. What we have (in VR4) is a V6 setup! Twin turbo here looks like a better option! ... at least for me :) .

PS: On the other hand, FTOLTD went for single turbo due to space restrictions (fitted 6a13 V6 into FTO!!!) and with some great results!!!

enigma
22-01-2005, 04:36 PM
Looking at the turbos on the engine that came out of my car, 2 bigger little ones is a better option. I was also thinking you could leave the rear one and go for a bigger front one for sequential boost? :rolleyes5 Its probably best to have a matching pair though!

Mante
22-01-2005, 05:48 PM
I agree, for I6 (Nissan Inline 6 cylinder twin turbocharged engine - RB26DETT) it is cheaper and easier to go single turbo. What we have (in VR4) is a V6 setup! Twin turbo here looks like a better option! ... at least for me :) .

PS: On the other hand, FTOLTD went for single turbo due to space restrictions (fitted 6a13 V6 into FTO!!!) and with some great results!!!

Yes I know very well we have a V config lol..jeez give me some credit :-D and I was also thinking of ftoltd's good setup when thinking of switching to the single setup but using a more effective turbo and the idea of not having to use nitrous to spool it. Im considering the br20 for one reason, well two 1. its the quickest spooling 20g that i have come across and 2. while being well into the eff. range it will produce upwards of 450 whp. All figures were taking from the eclipse 4g63T (2.0L I4) Guesstimating having a 6a13 at the same would be pretty easy...

zentac
22-01-2005, 06:33 PM
Look at the CMap of 9bs and plot demand lines/dots for our engine, you will see the how close they are to our stock units.
Some TD04 perform better then TD05, so do overlap other families and brands of turbochargers. So why are you surprised that our TC03 units flow same amount, as bigger 9bs from GTO/3000GT?

There is still no definite answer as to what our turbos are. On 6a12 engine the turbos are clearly marked as TD025 and they do look very much like ours (6a13)... but others (like people in Majestic Turbos) said they are actually TC03 family turbos.

PS: I am not saying this information is 100% correct... use it at your own risk :)

Before fitting my engine I checked the numbers on my turbos they are definatly TC03-06A

valmes
22-01-2005, 11:26 PM
Yes I know very well we have a V config lol..jeez give me some credit :-D and I was also thinking of ftoltd's good setup when thinking of switching to the single setup but using a more effective turbo and the idea of not having to use nitrous to spool it. Im considering the br20 for one reason, well two 1. its the quickest spooling 20g that i have come across and 2. while being well into the eff. range it will produce upwards of 450 whp. All figures were taking from the eclipse 4g63T (2.0L I4) Guesstimating having a 6a13 at the same would be pretty easy...

:) Didn't mean to offend anyone. Sorry if it sounded this way.
We just have plenty of cars here with 1JZ-GTE, 2JZ-GTE and some RB26DETT who are also going single turbo setup from twin turbo, 'cause it's easier to setup on an "inline" engine. As I was told, placing turbos closer to cylinders is essential to getting hotter exhaust gases with more velocity, hence more power can be utilized!!! With single turbo on any V shaped engine exhaust manifold will have a pretty long runners(extractors) - which is a downside!
FTOLTD sure did make a good single turbo system out of 6a13 engine, but I am sure somebody will eventually come up with at least similar or even better performing twin turbo setup! Again our engine bay is a little less space restrictive than that on a FTO. IMO... BTW can you give a link to "Buschur 20g" CMap?



I was also thinking you could leave the rear one and go for a bigger front one for sequential boost? Its probably best to have a matching pair though!


Won't running differently sized turbos of different engine cylinders unbalance the engine? Different amount of load on front and rear(of V shaped engine) due to different exhaust restrictions?
Sequential turbo is also more complex design, since you have to figure out how to make one turbo switch over to another one... Like with fuel pumps - running differently sized fuel pumps in parallel setup is not recommeded...

Here is what RX-7 owners (who have stock sequential twin turbo) say about benefits of converting to non-sequential twin turbo:
"- There will be considerably less vacuum lines to worry about, and you will no longer need the 2 black vacuum and pressure tanks which will provide larger paths for air to flow around the engine cooling it more and helping to prevent the baking of underhood vacuum lines and components.
- A smooth consistant, predictable boost curve that will come on strong and stay there through redline unlike the stock 10-8-10 PSI mess. This smooth boost curve means you no longer have to worry about the transition point occurring during a corner (which could and sometimes does send the car into a tailspin)
- Less restrictive exhaust path, which ultimately results in less backpressure being seen by the engine (IE more power, and less internal heat)
It will become trivial instead of impossible to troubleshoot problems with the turbo system (if you have any :)"
some relevant info :) (http://forums.turbobricks.com/archive/index.php/t-280.html)


2 zentac - One more in favor of TC03!!! :-D

Slimshady
23-01-2005, 12:28 AM
:)

Whats 304 stainless steel anyway?



304 Stainless is the grade (this is related to the amount of carbon atoms and also the amount of chrome used in the manufacturing of the steel)

304 Stainless is basically a bog standard stainless & almost oxidisation free (note almost) all steels will oxidise - leave this and the same in conventional steel at the bottom of an ocean and both will oxidise (rust over time) – the 304 will last considerably longer but will oxidise over a long period of time.

The best stainless you can buy for money is 316 – this is basically surgical steel and if looked after, will not oxidise (unless you leave it at the bottom of an ocean for a lot longer than the other two).

Note 316 is a fair bit more expensive but worth it if you are in the medical trade (in fact I am not sure if you can use anything else)

Be very careful when ordering stainless steels – the surface grain quality is appalling (unless you order BA sheet) I certainly would not use it as a bulk head or gasket – if so I would specify polished finish or BA sheet if this is applicable for the application – note this will cost lots and lots. Also be careful if you are laser cutting stainless, the edge finish can also be bad – water or plasma cutting can give a better finish but will also cost more. Specify a clean and de-burred finish.

Also if you are not sure if it’s stainless – get a magnet – if it sticks its mild steel


Well if your still awake - that’s enough of metrology 101 for now – more soon


Slim

Mante
23-01-2005, 02:08 AM
:) Didn't mean to offend anyone. Sorry if it sounded this way.
We just have plenty of cars here with 1JZ-GTE, 2JZ-GTE and some RB26DETT who are also going single turbo setup from twin turbo, 'cause it's easier to setup on an "inline" engine. As I was told, placing turbos closer to cylinders is essential to getting hotter exhaust gases with more velocity, hence more power can be utilized!!! With single turbo on any V shaped engine exhaust manifold will have a pretty long runners(extractors) - which is a downside!
FTOLTD sure did make a good single turbo system out of 6a13 engine, but I am sure somebody will eventually come up with at least similar or even better performing twin turbo setup! Again our engine bay is a little less space restrictive than that on a FTO. IMO... BTW can you give a link to "Buschur 20g" CMap?

Buschur 's website (http://www.buschurracing.com/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?5X376545) scroll down to the br20g. Nah you didnt offend me I was laughin when I read it. I have also heard the rumor of the runners being to long.

valmes
25-01-2005, 02:09 PM
Garrett T3:

Mante
28-01-2005, 12:05 AM
This by far the cleanest most impressive twin 16g setups I have ever seen, note it is on a gto/3000gt so it would just have to be reversed That setup costs about US4500.00 very powerful, if I remember upwards of 550 whp

http://home.comcast.net/~hillbj/twinb.jpg

ako
29-01-2005, 03:54 AM
Just some food for thought on this whole thing.


Really, what the whole debate boils down to is "how much do you want to spend". Its that simple.

Option one - Spend up large. In this case, its quite simple (in theory) - set yourself a power target or 1/4 mile time target. Then, look at what turbo on the market is best to achieve this - bearing in mind that a turbo doesn't have to be big to make big bower, there's more to it than that. A TD-06 with a 25G compressor wheel would be the cheap option, and provide %$#@loads of flow and crack 400hp on this engine without too much trouble. I've seen a stock 16G wheel'ed TD05 crack 235kW plus on a 2 litre VR4 , the 6A13 is more than capable of exceeding that. The only tricky part of this would be finding just where the manifolding goes to - but theres a heap of room above the gearbox anyway. Buying a new tech, ball bearing cored turbo would provide both the flow, and rapid spool up (especially on a 2.5) that you'd be after, your wallet is what ultimately decides this. For ease of working on etc, a single turbo setup wins hands down.

Option two - Do it the budget conscious way. This is where the experience of many people beforehand comes into play, and you have to think "just how much power am I actually aiming for?

By my way of thinking, you dont need to go all out to get the results most are hoping for. As an example, the 300ZX engine is a good comparison. They suffer from very similar issues as we do with our V6's - undersized turbos from the outset, and not much room to put in big upgrades anyway. Hence they stick with twins 90% of the time, normally swapping over compressor housings for parts off skylines etc. And it works a treat. A guy I talked to from up north was similar - he blew a rear turbo on his 6A12TT, so replaced both turbos with ones originally from a CA18DET silvia. They sound way too small in theory, but remember each is only being fed by 1 litre of capacity. He just re-flanged his exhaust manifolds, made up some new i/c piping, and got new coolant lines made up. Doesn't cost anywhere near as much, and still got brilliant results.

I'm just realistic about what to try and do to a car, and what should be spent. Ive seen SO many car owners spend up huge trying to make power, whereas if they just did what was actually necessary they would be making a hell of a lot more. In my eyes, a datalogger is an absolute vital, along with making sure the charge air is kept to a decent degree. It never ceases to amaze me just how little people on here actually keep the stock intercoolers - even though they aren't bad, its normally one of the first things I see modified on most turbo cars over here. Cold air is free power! Ditto for the turbos - they really are the main weak point on this engine. You can (and I have) push them really hard and still make the power, but thats because I'm on a much smaller budget than most on here. Put it this way - for under $2000 NZD I could have had a pair of decent sized turbos onto my E84A, and would have been pushing into the low 12s, in conjunction with the fuelling. Try telling me thats not value for money.

Mante
29-01-2005, 04:24 AM
WEll put, hell...damn good. But please remember the differences between our galants vs the 300zx...I believe they come with twin T25's which honestly are way more powerful and boast much more potential..I can not remember the cfm's but its effective up to 220 whp @ 10-15psi on the 2.0L 4g63T...Would you like to imagine a single 6c on a 4g63T? I wouldnt lol Your right the intercooler technically should be the first thing thats upgraded...did I nope honestly it slipped my mind. Mainly because my current setup isnt going to last long..I can feel the back 6c burning oil....gut feeling haha.

All in all your 100% right, your budget dictates on how far you will go.. some peoples aspirations exceed what they will ever do.... case in point some other threads...

valmes
29-01-2005, 06:00 AM
Really, what the whole debate boils down to is "how much do you want to spend". Its that simple.


I really think anyone out here wants to be sensible in terms of power vs money thing. We wouldn't be here in a first place if we could afford a Ferrari done in reputable tuning shop... would we?



your wallet is what ultimately decides this.

Your "goals" ultimately decide your wallet... errr... sorry for my English.




For ease of working on etc, a single turbo setup wins hands down.
By my way of thinking, you dont need to go all out to get the results most are hoping for.

Why do you think a single turbo is better option? V shaped engine is better suited for twin turbo (you place them closer to cylinders, you get higher temp. and exhaust gas velocities). Also when you use twins, they are each smaller units and that should in fact help in two ways - better spool up time, smaller turbo size. Most of the quickest 1/4 Skylines GTRs (in Japan) , even though with engine configuration better suited for single turbo, use twin turbo setup and show times of less than 9 sec - 1/4 mile.

You're right - "you dont need to go all out to get the results most are hoping for."
Don't have to go single turbo (unless you have space restrictions as in FTO case) if you can get better results with twin setup... :)





As an example, the 300ZX engine is a good comparison. They suffer from very similar issues as we do with our V6's - undersized turbos from the outset, and not much room to put in big upgrades anyway. Hence they stick with twins 90% of the time, normally swapping over compressor housings for parts off skylines etc. And it works a treat.


Don't think they suffer too much, since they do have (using original Garrett units) some upgrade choices and we don't!
300ZX turbo upgrade (http://www.turbochargers.com/Turbos/TurboUpgrades/300Garrets.htm)
300ZX BB turbo upgrade (http://www.turbochargers.com/Turbos/TurboUpgrades/300BB.htm)

...and why would you want to go single turbo (changing everything), if you can just bolt on the upgrades, is beyond me!





Put it this way - for under $2000 NZD I could have had a pair of decent sized turbos onto my E84A, and would have been pushing into the low 12s, in conjunction with the fuelling. Try telling me thats not value for money.


That's value for money! But lets be reallistic - only until some point! You can only go "that far" with keeping things stock... Well eventually you will max out on something - it could be that your injectors are not properly sized or your pump refusing to provide you with needed amount of fuel.

For that time (12.6) how many things have you changed in your car? I can only see different intercooler... what else? Great time btw!!! :thumbsup:

What decent pair of turbos can you get for $2000NZ? What amount of air will they flow? How fast will they spool? How long will they last (assuming for that price you can only get second hand turbos - correct me if I'm wrong).

The main point I am making - in order to keep your car "road friendly" and at the same time to show better 1/4 times, you will have to find a compromise in terms effectiveness - first (spool up time, size and flow of turbos), and costs - second.

BB turbos are not adequately priced at the moment... they are too expensive with not too much power gains(compared to what they cost). They are more fragile and virtually unrepairable.

That's why (well at least for me...) Garrett T3 50/60/60S is a better all around version.

- Two turbos at prices of 600-750$ each (or you can find them rebuilt at 300$ price tag)
- Rated at 490 CFM each (on our engines capable of going up to 2.8PR in eff.range)
- Fast spooling up times (for that kind of flow)
- Durable and serviceable
- Easy to make hybrids out of these turbos, if you decide to upgrade... and chase Drag Skylines GTR :)
- You do your manifold once - and with T3 exhaust flanges you can upgrade to whatever you like, later on... even to BB turbos.

ako
29-01-2005, 06:44 AM
By all means, go for that setup.

Reasoning behind me saying going to a big single is simple - its only one turbo to break, and a hell of a lot easier to work on if in fact something does go wrong. That said, if you do manage to cook a turbo the cars going to be off the road for a while regardless, so a few hours removing the rear one isn't much of a problem.

I've got a mate here in new zealand whos putting on a pair of ex - lancer GSR turbos onto an E84A, I think they are TD-0414Gs. Thats one per bank, and hes expecting to have a max boost spool up by around 4000 - 4500rpm, hopefully. Even though its a 2 litre engine, its still a turbo which is more at home on a 1.8L engine, reducing it to 3 ex. pulses and 1L of displacement is going to have some ramifications to driveablity and spool up times 9 times out of ten anyway. Thats why you drop back a gear :laugh:

Meh, there will always be cars that prove theorys wrong. The reason I mentioned the 300zx is simply because its in a similar boat in terms of being under-turboed, the 3000GT is also the same, but just to throw a big whole in my thoughts your right, they are easily upgraded. The 3000GT still needs to get new manifolding / flanging done for any upgrades past a compressor wheel - their forums do have some bloody interesting articles on there.

At the end of the day, we're both right. Both systems have their merits, and its up to the owner which they want. Going for two large turbos could result in the same lag as a big single - whereas a properly sized single turbo could give near-stock driveablility down low, but with much more flow up top. Either way can work just fine - look at the turbo kits for the new 350Z for some examples. Some are going for medium-sized twin turbo setups, whilst others are adopting the large single approach, both (from what I've read) have very similar characteristics. It comes down to turbo sizing, tuning, all sorts of variables. The majority of older-tech turbos always have a trade off, but hopefully the extra capacity and pair of cylinders the 6A13 has over the average evo/wrx will negate the effects of a larger turbo.

The normal way of thinking says that a big single will provide a big rush that twins can't - and its absolute bollocks. If you've got the same amount of flow, the car will pull just as hard. Your right, most of the japanese big boys use twin turbo setups on the GTRs - but the world street tyred GTR record is held by on here in NZ with a BBBIIIGGG single on it. Ditto for the american supra guys, their quickest uses a big single as well. Spool up times aren't an issue on 7-8 second cars I don't think :laugh:


Oh yeah, my car? Stock turbos @ 15-16psi, the evo 6.5 intercooler, no cat and a new muffler, exedy uprated clutch (got that about a year ago mante, someone told you a little white lie ;) ), pod filter, springs and wheels. AF ratios were normally about 12:1 at the top end, never got any hints of knocking though. Must have had one of those "special" engines in it :D

borgan
29-01-2005, 07:32 PM
Keeping the twin turbo setup on the 6a13 may be very efficient on the exhaust side of the turbo, but the there are serious flow restrictions from the air filter to the front turbo.

I would expect the air to hit a bottle neck on the plastic pipe just above the gearbox. The run from the air filter to the turbos is very long.
On twin turbo setups on Gtr's this run is very short.

Having a single turbo setup may not be efficient on the exhaust side of the turbo but the air filter to turbo intake efficiency would greatly benefit.

Blocking the inlet manifold intake on the n/s & opening up the o/s keeps the distance from the turbo through the intercooler & on to the intake as short & as direct as possible. When I first saw pictures of FTOLTD's conversion I didn't fully appreciate the thought that had gone behind it. It was only after having had a few problems with the upgraded twin setup (& the labour that goes with it!!!! :sad3: ) that led me to re-visit his site, that I realised the benefits of the single setup.

Once only cost of manifold or Y branch from present manifold
Reduced heat through air filter when placed on o/s (not sited directly above gearbox)
T3 flange allowing lower cost turbo & greater choice
Reduced time to swap turbo if necessary (further upgrade or replacement)
It's been done before!!!
there are other costs but none that are extreme in price (downpipe, ic pipes, fabrication of inlet manifold intake, battery re-location, heat shield for turbo & possibly for gearbox). Fuel pump, injectors, IC etc would apply whether twin or single turbo.

Although it might be possible to use t3's on twin setup it's going to be quite tight. The present sized turbos are arkward enough to fit.

Ok so we have a V configured engine. There's going to be a compromise whether a person opts for 1 or 2 turbos. Is increasing the distance from exhaust manifold really going to make a noticable difference ? Will reducing distance from air filter to turbo negate this ? Why did Mitsubishi opt for more expensive smaller turbos when cheaper but slightly larger ones are available? I don't know the answers. Just food for thought.

I'm just providing my experience & highlighting the experience of others with our engine. It's your money & your decision. Good Luck!!!

paulmc
29-01-2005, 09:24 PM
Is there such a thing as a TC03-09A? I found this on the net supposed to be on the Colt 4G32 engine but I cant find anything on it.

valmes
30-01-2005, 08:31 AM
Is increasing the distance from exhaust manifold really going to make a noticable difference ?

Will reducing distance from air filter to turbo negate this?

I would expect the air to hit a bottle neck on the plastic pipe just above the gearbox. The run from the air filter to the turbos is very long.

In my way of thinking - if we have a problem (which I doubt) on intake side, why should we solve this problem in such a hard way? Why replace one problem (intake restriction) with another (long extractors/runners/single setup), instead of getting rid of it?

As I see it, our cars suffer more in getting hot air from under the hood, than anything else. So some sort of cold air intake will do more good then.

If you are so bothered by long inefficient intake pipes - change them! PROS Engineering sells this upgrade parts for EC5X (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.diana.dti.ne.jp%2f%7ecarplu s%2fmitsubishi%2fec5%2fp%26p.html)

Or you can change over to MAP sensor (if you get any decent aftermarket computer) and make a split intake.... intake for each turbo, like on GTR.





Why did Mitsubishi opt for more expensive smaller turbos when cheaper but slightly larger ones are available?


More efficient low end performance? Enough to produce 280PS all the way up to the top?
Cheaper to whom? To you and me? Why would you think that it would apply the same to manufacturer? Maybe FOR Mitsubishi it was cheaper to place smaller turbos on this car, then bigger ones? Space restrictions are not an issue when you design a car... they could have easily increased couple of inches here and there, if it was worth it. Obviously it wasn't. Now we have to work around this, since Mitsubishi engineers didn't think at the time some one would want more than 280PS out of Legnum/Galant... :-D




It's your money & your decision. Good Luck!!!
Same here, I don't force my choices on anyone... just wanted to share the info, so someone with the same engine can benefit from it in one way or another.

May be our "single vs. twin" discussion will shed a light on what is more appropriate and cost effective way of upgrading our turbos. Will see... but for now I am on the "twin" side :)

PS: Btw, here is another option: PROS Egn/Buzz EC5X turbos upgrade (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http://www.diana.dti.ne.jp/~carplus/new/buzz_types.html)

borgan
30-01-2005, 11:12 AM
That intake pipe comes to around $2000 after taxes & delivery!!!! I didn't think it was value for money a year ago & I still don't now.

I think Zentac enquired about the buzz turbos - IIRC no longer available
I looked at Buzz turbos a while back - at the time the exchange rate made it very expensive (for my budget anyway).

IMHO manufacturers over compensate for fast spoolup when sizing their turbos. All stems from the criticisms of the lag on the early turbo models such as the Saab 99 turbo. Now many cars tend to come with instant boost followed by disappointment in the upper revs (for me anyway). It maybe a 260/280 hp car std, but to me it doesn't feel like one. Isn't that why so many of us are upping the boost ? Isn't that why threads such as "Let's think bigger turbos" are found in car forums everywhere?

Have you seen the price that Mitsubishi quote for a std turbo replacement ? Either they're really really greedy or the units themselves are produced in such small quantities that they really are pricey.

I could fit 2 airflow meters running more direct pipes to each turbo. It would be a lot easier if we had the same access to the maps as they do in the ZX community.

Valmes, I'm glad this thread has evolved this way. Lots of personal ideas to be seen. There are many ways to achieve the same target. All of them have pros & cons. I'm veering towards the single turbo solution & only because of personal experience in going the twin route. Too many people telling me that what I wanted to do wouldn't fit, it would cost too much etc. I think mainly from lack of appreciation & enthusiasm for the cars that we have. Thats why I prefer the tried & tested single turbo option. From the outset I can see that it can be done, put a cost to it that i know won't be exceeded & I have fair idea of what to expect power wise. If the people you're dealing with are more enthusiastic & appreciative then I'm sure that you'll overcome any obstacle & finish with a car whose performance you'll really be pleased with.

enigma
01-02-2005, 09:29 AM
GT15s any good?

zentac
01-02-2005, 02:23 PM
I think Zentac enquired about the buzz turbos - IIRC no longer available I looked at Buzz turbos a while back - at the time the exchange rate made it very expensive (for my budget anyway).

Yep you are correct.

paulmc
01-02-2005, 07:14 PM
GT15s any good?

Yeah look pretty good 440 bhp potential, but I take it they need a custom manifold.

paulmc
01-02-2005, 07:16 PM
GT15s any good?

Looks good, with 440bhp potential. I take it they will need a custom manifold

Mante
04-02-2005, 02:03 AM
exedy uprated clutch (got that about a year ago mante, someone told you a little white lie ;)

maybe your right, but as far as exedy is concerned they only have install pics of my vr4 :)

valmes
06-02-2005, 11:14 AM
They are in New Parts section of PROS ENGINEERING website...
When did you find out they were "no longer available"?
Next week I will try to find out if they are still available and what those turbos are capable of...

valmes
13-02-2005, 01:28 AM
GT15s any good?

Too small.

GT15-25

Garrett GT15 compact turbocharger is designed for today's small displacement engines. Based on the well-know T2 design, The GT15 family is engineered to provide an economic perfomance boost for small displacement diesel and gasoline engines in passenger cars, light duty trucks and marine applications.

The GT15's application range is for 1.3 to 1.6 liter ( 60 - 80 bhp ) diesel engines and 1.0 to 1.4 liter (85 - 120 bhp ) gasiline engines. The compact packaging makes the GT family ideally suited for twin turbo applications on V-block engines. The GT25, at the high end of the range, can be configurated to match gasoline engines ratings up to 210 hp. The GT17, GT20 and GT22 fill in the flow ranges between the GT15 and GT25.

The Garrett VNT15 ( Now GT17V ) turbocharger is currently featured on the VW 1.9 TDI engine, among others.

info taken from here (http://www.turbomaster.info/eng/turbos/gt15-25.php)

valmes
13-02-2005, 02:41 AM
Who wanted to go single turbo?

Here is a single turbo kit for 6a12 engine. I think it can be used on 6a13 too...

6A12 Galant Turbo Kit (http://www.turbo-kits.com/galant_turbo_kits.html)

Mante
13-02-2005, 03:46 AM
Who wanted to go single turbo?

Here is a single turbo kit for 6a12 engine. I think it can be used on 6a13 too...

6A12 Galant Turbo Kit (http://www.turbo-kits.com/galant_turbo_kits.html)

single turbo would be me.... and looking at that package a single T25, well thats honestly less then what the 6a13 comes with. The T25 comes standard on the 2nd gen eclipse here in the US max of 220whp on a 2.0L 4g63 plainly put pretty pitiful. That same package with the br20g that I mentioned before would produce a "modest" 450 whp on the same 2L motor. That 6a12 is the mivec motor I really want, that in my opinion would be a better base to force induct vs our 6a13. The addition of Mivec means the use of a larger turbo without needing nitrous...thats another story.


Here in the states the maxima owners upgrade to the twin T25's that come stock on the 300zx, another idea I was thinking about was the Garett Super 60 (http://turbochargers.com/Turbos/TurboUpgrades/300Garrets.htm) being able to flow 500 CFM's each means alot of room to play with.

Yes I agree GT15's are as small if not smaller then our stock td03-6c's the only upgrades with less stress are the ones available for the 3000gt/GTO...they are the 13g, 15g or the super 60 TD04HL...ironically they flow the same CFM's as the GT28 but the super 60 are way more expensive...

When the time comes for someone to actually make steps and purchase a setup, then we can see what actually works...vs what doesnt instead of all the babble of what we think will and wont work. Getting a firm idea is one thing but to try to get a fail safe method without trail and error will get us (as a forum as a whole) nowhere....fast..

ako
13-02-2005, 03:59 AM
I've seen that kit before - and THAT 6A12 looks nothing like any I've seen. Even looks like a single cam as well!

Mante is right - at the end of the day, its not exactly ground breaking modifications we're talking about here, and its far from rocket science.

For all the blithering on about worrying about runner lengths etc etc - at the end of the day, all you're looking to do is make a car with a lot more punch. Waiting an extra 100rpm to hit full boost is something you'll just never ever notice, and your pushing the proverbial uphill if you want it to keep driving exactly like factory. It can be done - but why worry about it? Nothing like a big wallop in the back from a decent sized huffer coming on boost. Plus it pays dividends in other areas - you can actually drive around OFF BOOST, which is damn near impossible on the stock setup.

At the end of the day - here's how I see it. If you're not going to go pushing your car THAT sky high in power, try and do what you can with what you have. Try high-flowing the turbos, freeing up all the restrictions, getting a decent ECU to crank the boost with - and enjoy the 350 - 400hp thats possible. If you're aiming for big power - just go large. Go overkill with the turbo, fuelling, the lot, if you can afford it. Once you get the power bug, you'll be kicking yourself if you spend a couple grand on a "mild upgrade" - when you could be getting your wagon into porsche turbo territory for not much more.

AllBeItMine
13-02-2005, 04:13 AM
again i find myself grudgling agreeing with Mark. I reckon a turbo upgrade should be the last thing you should do to one of these cars. there is too much potential to be had from getting the most out of the standard turbos and i believe you should have all the support systems for a bigger turbo in place before you go ahead and stick it on.

Mante
13-02-2005, 04:36 AM
For us at this point its the obvious...upgraded internals..alittle more displacement (yes I know I have left you guys in the dark but I want it to bet worth wild before I open my mouth on the displacment problem...sorry) helps with the low end grunt... the equation of "an additional 5% of displacemnt yields 7% of performance gains" keeps kicking my head... The myth *which was proven true by the guys at turbonetics* of having hte runners as short as possible to keep the pulses of heat as hot and close together to spin the turbine side of the turbo..

Allbeitmine: yes you do have to have a great supporting cast inorder to upgrade the turbo but lets be perfectly clear...how many Vr4 owners havent done that already.. if they havent they shouldnt even be speaking cause they would be "technically" slowing progress up with space filling babble... My 255lph fuel pump I can see already being worked to the max..maybe reinstalling a FPR will help but only time will tell.

Now Im still in the learning process, most of you already know BUT Im a quick learn... AKO, thanks for backing me I try to make as much sense as possible...usually that doesnt happen haha.

Now to make it perfectly clear having twin T25's would be nice but thats stock on the 300zx and we would end up loosing to just about any force inducted "modded" car...GT28's in my opinion would be almost perfect...yes new manifolds would be needed...but the idea of 680 hp is unmatched...especially with the space problems, unfortunatly they have integrated wastegates but hey nothings perfect.

At the present I dont expect anyone to lock themselves into a particular setup because we all are "treading lightly" but someone has to do it...much respect to FTOLTD for the single setup and breaking the mold..450hp is a wonderful thing!

valmes
13-02-2005, 11:21 AM
2 Mante
"and looking at that package a single T25, well thats honestly less then what the 6a13 comes with."
I didn't mean you should get a whole setup(about "6a12 kit")... just the parts that make up custom exhaust manifold for single turbo setup... looks like it is for a T3(Garrett GT??) turbo flange. You have all the bits to make it up. Then mount any turbo you like.
I wouldn't think anybody would want to change twin TD03-8G to single T25... so I didn’t really see, the need, for any explanation.

Now as I've said before I like the idea of getting twin T3 60 setup... with each flowing 490-500 CFM. That should be enough for me.

2 Ako
"Even looks like a single cam as well!"
Hmm... how would manifolds on SOHC vs. DOHC V6 engine differ, if they are supplied in DIY form? Bended stainless steel tubes should fit all right to 6a1X engine and will make a good single turbo exhaust manifold.

"Waiting an extra 100rpm to hit full boost is something you'll just never ever notice"
Of course... but also you will never notice any performance gains... sizing turbos is not a rocket science, but does require some understanding. So it might turn out to be 1000-2000 or more extra rpms to get that punch. There is always a trade off in getting more power. :)

"At the end of the day - here's how I see it. "
And here is how I see it - I wouldn't be asking all those questions and going into such difficult and costly endeavor, such as getting new turbos and manifolds, if I were satisfied with my present setup.

"If you're aiming for big power - just go large. Go overkill with the turbo, fuelling, the lot, if you can afford it. Once you get the power bug, you'll be kicking yourself if you spend a couple grand on a "mild upgrade" - when you could be getting your wagon into porsche turbo territory for not much more."
"Overkill" - could be as bad as "mild upgrade". So I just want to plan ahead and get it right.

PS: If your aim is to give me "hard time", anytime I find and share some "good" (or lets just say "relevant") info - well go for it. English might not be my native language, but I will try to be as "clear" as I can. /yes

paulmc
13-02-2005, 12:48 PM
Valmes,

Keep posting the info, it is the only way we learn. :2thumbsup

cheers

Paul

Mante
13-02-2005, 03:46 PM
2 Mante

I didn't mean you should get a whole setup(about "6a12 kit")... just the parts that make up custom exhaust manifold for single turbo setup... looks like it is for a T3(Garrett GT??) turbo flange. You have all the bits to make it up. Then mount any turbo you like.
I wouldn't think anybody would want to change twin TD03-8G to single T25... so I didn’t really see, the need, for any explanation.



Now if you said that with the previous post I wouldnt have been misunderstood. AT that moment I thought you had dropped the twin t3 for that single T25, really left me speechless.. Now I understand

landy
14-02-2005, 01:35 AM
English might not be my native language, but I will try to be as "clear" as I can. /yes

Your English seems fine to me!

Kieran
14-02-2005, 02:02 AM
PS: If your aim is to give me "hard time", anytime I find and share some "good" (or lets just say "relevant") info - well go for it. English might not be my native language, but I will try to be as "clear" as I can. /yes

I agree with Paulmc and Landy here - I think the information you're digging up here is very interesting Valmes. :thumbsup: And your English is frequently better than mine! :scholar: :oops:

ako
14-02-2005, 05:40 AM
Oh christ - I wasn't getting at you at all! I'm bloody impressed with what you're doing with your car, your one of the few people I know of doing up a 6A13 to a decent degree!

What I was referring to was some of the other arguments being brought up, like I said - if you have the funds, get the absolute best of everything you can.

If I could, for simplicities sake alone, I'd just be re-flanging and doing it the cheap way. If I had the funds, I'd be doing it like you are - getting every detail perfect. For now, I'm just going to make do with new downpipes, fuelling + pipework, should hopefully be enough to push me to the 350 hp ish range - I dont think the rods in the 6A12 are capable of much more than that anyway. Best of luck to ya man.

valmes
14-02-2005, 07:17 PM
Money is a limited resource... so I also do want all the upgrades to be "cost efficient", in terms of getting power vs. spending “hard earned money” :)

I guess, people just place importance of each upgrade in a different order, but end up doing the same stuff anyway... What differs at the end is: amount of time-spent, budget and result. However, most of the time getting similar results means that you end up spending same amount of money stretched over longer period of time. :). Just an opinion…

Found one good reading - http://www.max-boost.co.uk (http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boost/turbo/turbo.htm) :2thumbsup :D

paulmc
16-02-2005, 12:22 AM
Nissan 200sx the S13 runs T25 and some guys are making 240ish on standard turbos

S14 runs T28 and making 280ish bhp.

so even running the smaller T25 you can get close to 500bhp, these turbos are plentyful and cheap.

The nissan GTIR also runs the T28

cant find compressor map for them yet but going from the 200 site they will make good power.

I am trying to buy one from a guy at the moment just to see how big a job it will be to fit.

-LegnumVR4-
16-02-2005, 05:57 AM
The T25 is what I've been working on as a good 'twin' setup for the engine. The T25 is rather compact and u have plenty of meat in them so u can play around with larger compressor wheels.

valmes
19-02-2005, 01:09 PM
Ok. I am changing them!!! :) Finally decided on the setup and turbos to use.
Will try to post everything in the Members Area... notes, pictures, part numbers etc.
Hope to start by the end of next week (if my turbos arrive on time). :)

paulmc
19-02-2005, 01:33 PM
Ok. I am changing them!!! :) Finally decided on the setup and turbos to use.
Will try to post everything in the Members Area... notes, pictures, part numbers etc.
Hope to start by the end of next week (if my turbos arrive on time). :)


What turbos are you going for, are you using the original manifold with an adapter plate or going for custom manifolds.

valmes
19-02-2005, 02:26 PM
Twin TD04 setup.
Original manifolds with custom adapter plates :)

paulmc
19-02-2005, 02:55 PM
Yeah seems the easiest way to go, there seems to be a few TD04-13g's on the go. Have a look on this site, link below

http://www.3si.org/forum/

not sure how big a job the T25's will be to fit, may end up following you yet :)

valmes
19-02-2005, 04:00 PM
I am going for a little bigger TD04H-13T-6cm2 units. (428cfm rated flow)

PS: Look at "Power Up!!! (Turbos)" thread in Members Area for detailed explanation. /yes

Mante
12-03-2005, 03:25 AM
Yea changing my mind again, but since Im still buildng the motor I can :) This setup is off the 300zxhttp://turbochargers.com/Images/Turbos/GT25BB.jpg


Application: 300ZX Twin Turbo CFM: 500 each Compressor Wheel: GT28 Max HP Rating: 650 hp Turbine Wheel: GT25 Price: $1490/set

I spent a couple hours on the phone with one of there reps..very helpful..he pretty much sold me on these.

FTOLTD
17-04-2005, 05:22 PM
Mante

with your new engine what is the bore and stroke going to be and what horsepower is your aim

what ECU , fuel pump, injectors, fuel pressure regulator,are you going to use

are you going external or internal waste gate, what is going to be your maximum boost that you will be aiming for.

Mante
17-04-2005, 08:25 PM
Mante

with your new engine what is the bore and stroke going to be and what horsepower is your aim

what ECU , fuel pump, injectors, fuel pressure regulator,are you going to use

are you going external or internal waste gate, what is going to be your maximum boost that you will be aiming for.

Havent seen the block nor heads for quite awhile, going on 2 months. Since I was spending the last couple months finishing the bodywork Im very pleased they are taking there time haha

Ecu-AEM EMS, map sensor, egt,,,etc etc
Fuel pump-walboro 255
injectors-havent figured out yet I have a set of 450cc not sure if I may need alittle larger.
fpr-weapon r (love the fact it comes with the gauge for only $75 us)
wastegates that come on the BB GT 28 will be used until something stronger is needed.
I plan to be at..around 450 to 550 awhp, those GT28's are able to give a 300zx 600 rwhp with all the supporting mods. But we will see once the dust settles, I spent much more then I expected on the body work so everything has been pushed back :( or delayed

FTOLTD
18-04-2005, 01:21 AM
Havent seen the block nor heads for quite awhile, going on 2 months. Since I was spending the last couple months finishing the bodywork Im very pleased they are taking there time haha

Ecu-AEM EMS, map sensor, egt,,,etc etc
Fuel pump-walboro 255
injectors-havent figured out yet I have a set of 450cc not sure if I may need alittle larger.
fpr-weapon r (love the fact it comes with the gauge for only $75 us)
wastegates that come on the BB GT 28 will be used until something stronger is needed.
I plan to be at..around 450 to 550 awhp, those GT28's are able to give a 300zx 600 rwhp with all the supporting mods. But we will see once the dust settles, I spent much more then I expected on the body work so everything has been pushed back :( or delayed

sounds good
I think you will need to up the injectors a little bit more to get to 550 @whp and a single walboro 255 HP would be at or beyond its limits up there too.

how about your heads and cams what have you got planned.

Mante
18-04-2005, 01:59 AM
sounds good
I think you will need to up the injectors a little bit more to get to 550 @whp and a single walboro 255 HP would be at or beyond its limits up there too.

how about your heads and cams what have you got planned.

Mix up, they arent the 450cc injectors..I thought they were for a 1g eclipse. They are the stock replacements for the us evo 8, they should be around 565cc...I guess I should refresh my memory on what comes on the evo stock so I can definately know

As for the fuel pump, if things run alittle lean the supra's 290 LPH will be the option

FTOLTD
18-04-2005, 02:37 AM
so when do you expect to start finalising the new engine build.

I am very interested in knowing what the final dimensions on the stroke and bore are and if they used liners and what crank.

I currently have 3 x 6A13 engines

1 in the car with forged internals, etc.

1 as a spare motor (currently stock)

and 1 blown motor that i will be building at the end of this year, several possiblitys, 3 ltr 6A13 mivec Single Turbo, is the preferred option. I was looking at stroking the original crank by having a custom made billett crank done and going with a 86mm bore and stroke and using liners to keep the cylinder wall integrity. I would be very interested in knowing how you guys do yours.

Mante
22-04-2005, 03:34 AM
so when do you expect to start finalising the new engine build.



Being optimistic I hope to be done with the motor build june/july. Im getting married in May so I have been broke for some time now :( I will be glad when I get a pay check and I can say "its mine" finally. On May 22 the car will be viewed by several venders such as....AEM, Je pistons, Ross racing rods, Crower Im sure a few others will take a look. Sema Atlantic city (http://www.semaautosalon.com/car.htm) Im the Forth from the bottom. As time progresses I should hope more parts can be custom made for this application

valmes
31-07-2005, 03:13 PM
Keeping the twin turbo setup on the 6a13 may be very efficient on the exhaust side of the turbo, but the there are serious flow restrictions from the air filter to the front turbo.

I would expect the air to hit a bottle neck on the plastic pipe just above the gearbox. The run from the air filter to the turbos is very long.
On twin turbo setups on Gtr's this run is very short.


Here comes out a solution for this! Switch over to MAP.
Someone from NZ did it with Link ECU(bradc). I am doing the same with e-Manage Ultimate. Two separate intake pipes for front and rear turbo, with two separate air filters... since there is no need for MAF anymore ... :)

Bradc setup (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6038&stc=1&thumb=1)

bradc
31-07-2005, 08:20 PM
I didn't do it, it was my mate You See who posted later on in the thread.

My personal thought is that this is easily the best way for our cars to be run, you don't need the restrictive MAF sensor, and you don't have the tiny little tube going from the MAF to the front turbo. The pipe for the front turbo is less than a foot long, and has no kinks in it.

TTV6VR4
08-11-2005, 03:44 AM
Would the Garrett T3 make more power than the TD04?

You See
08-11-2005, 05:35 AM
Guilty! /whip

bradc
08-11-2005, 06:41 AM
http://www.stealth316.com/2-turboguide.htm

Here is a good page about turbo upgrades on 3000gto cars. If you multiply the cfm from each turbo by 1.45-1.62 that will give you the approximate power range you'd expect from that turbo.

valmes
08-11-2005, 01:10 PM
http://www.stealth316.com/2-turboguide.htm

Here is a good page about turbo upgrades on 3000gto cars. If you multiply the cfm from each turbo by 1.45-1.62 that will give you the approximate power range you'd expect from that turbo.

Did you mean - "divide?"

bradc
08-11-2005, 07:37 PM
whoops, sorry yes. In our cars you would divide by that, then multiply by 2 of course.

TTV6VR4
10-11-2005, 04:40 AM
Aye, do you think that I learnt anything in maths at skool, I was only there for lunch and the girls /lol and :zzz:. Do you use the max cfm so like the TD04-13G-cm2's max cfm was 324?. Then wat do you do? Can u write the formula out fo me for this turbo?. Then does multiply the cfm from each turbo by 1.45-1.62 work for all turbos?. /help

AllBeItMine
10-11-2005, 05:30 AM
a turbo basically has a rating of how much HP it can support.

so you work out how much power you want out of your car and find a turbo that fits within that range.

its obviously not as simple as that but its a very basic template for working it out.

if you need any more indepth information - its probably best to talk to a pro.

bradc
10-11-2005, 10:37 AM
If you take 324 and divide it by 1.45-1.62 you get 200 - 223hp, then you multiply by two because the god's at mitsi blessed us with 2 turbos.

Note that 1.45-1.62 is a very rough thing, and I pulled that figure from various wide ranging websites, I've seen about 5 or 6 figures all within that range. Of course that is engine HP though.

TTV6VR4
10-11-2005, 10:25 PM
Is that a minus or just a line in between 1.45-1.62?. Cause if I use it as a minus I get 443.6. So they will make 443HP at full boost/max boost?

bradc
11-11-2005, 02:17 AM
I mean anywhere between 1.45 and 1.62. the figure could be 1.5, 1.57, whatever.

valmes
11-11-2005, 02:55 AM
In real life this "formula" should look like this:

Get CFM figure and divide it by 1,45-infinity (anything in that range)... you will have an HP range you can get out of this turbo... for our cars multiply by 2 :D

TTV6VR4
11-11-2005, 11:11 PM
Is the Garrett T3 the same as the Garrett T3's in the 25T 2.5L Turbo Skylines cause those turbos are Garett T3's so would they be a good upgrade if you get rid of the ceramic wheels/shaft. What about the T28's in the GTR's???.

Sports GT
05-01-2006, 04:56 AM
Okay.. I have a pair of TD04s from my 3000GT engine sitting there and are fine... I'm just running this by everyone and not really sure if it will be put into action... but I know they are not a straight bolt on to where the TD025s would be on the 6A12... but if I were to change the whole manifold to the 3000GT one would it possibly work as a possible upgrade?

AllBeItMine
05-01-2006, 05:39 AM
you *could* try chopping off the flange of each of the manifolds and swapping them?

you would have some clearance issues - but it *might* be an easy way out?

raph
06-02-2010, 08:14 PM
So i guess i have to be the one to figure this mess out? ill fit 13 or 16gs to the vr4!

Mante
06-02-2010, 10:59 PM
So i guess i have to be the one to figure this mess out? ill fit 13 or 16gs to the vr4!

There have been members here that have fitted twin 13g/16g on the 6a13.. Few of us have gone the single route.. Im curious to know just what will you figure out?

Louis
07-02-2010, 01:54 AM
People have made more advancements [since the last posts on this thread in 2006] and more info is on here re turbos and what has happened in the last 3 years!. Look forward to see what you come up with.

Turbo_Steve
07-02-2010, 11:07 PM
Raph.....there are around 5 people who have done it, and not one of them has said "It's not hard". In fact most of them have said "It's a lot harder than I thought it would be". This isn't a DSM: room is EXTREMELY limited, the manifolds are funny shape, and keeping the heat down is a nightmare.

Please feel free to do it, though, and sell us all some cheap manifolds and downpipes!

raph
07-02-2010, 11:45 PM
Will do.. just keeping optimistic..

also trying to work around the maf/ looking for maf pics to see is Maf translators /GM Mafs would be an option

Anyone know what part number the AFM has?? there must be a way to extract some powa outta these cars

Mante
08-02-2010, 02:58 AM
more power to you Raph.. the amount of trouble to make larger turbo's fit between the block and firewall (on rear bank) sent me RUNNING to a single turbo setup.. and the results have been sound.. two years on a stock long block..

Just make sure you dont spent alot more then a simple conversion yet fall short on the performance! If you end up with 600 awhp but full spool is reached at 4000 rpm you will still loose lol. the setup has to be functional as well as effective.. In my opinion take someone elses setup and find improvements..

valmes
08-02-2010, 03:35 AM
:) and when I look at my options with W12... upgrading VR-4 turbos looks as cheap of an option to make a car go fast, as it can get... and fun too. :)

So good luck to you and have fun! ;)

raph
09-02-2010, 11:10 PM
:) and when I look at my options with W12... upgrading VR-4 turbos looks as cheap of an option to make a car go fast, as it can get... and fun too. :)

So good luck to you and have fun! ;)


Brave man to take on the W12 ! good luck with it!

raph
09-02-2010, 11:12 PM
more power to you Raph.. the amount of trouble to make larger turbo's fit between the block and firewall (on rear bank) sent me RUNNING to a single turbo setup.. and the results have been sound.. two years on a stock long block..

Just make sure you dont spent alot more then a simple conversion yet fall short on the performance! If you end up with 600 awhp but full spool is reached at 4000 rpm you will still loose lol. the setup has to be functional as well as effective.. In my opinion take someone elses setup and find improvements..

i know,the AWD requires a slighty quicker spool compared to RWD or FWD

..AWD needs to jump outta the hole and hope that the top end power holds till the finish line LOL /megawoot

raph
09-02-2010, 11:15 PM
anyone try the 19t turbos? ( modified 9b s?)

And speaking of firewalls.. when one has massaged a firewall to make headers on a LS1 fit..then the galant shouldnt prove a problem.

Single turbo could work too, id see it going on top of the gearbox ( look at the new insignia OPC/VXR V6 4x4.. that turbo sits nicely atop the box)

Mante
10-02-2010, 12:59 AM
anyone try the 19t turbos? ( modified 9b s?)

And speaking of firewalls.. when one has massaged a firewall to make headers on a LS1 fit..then the galant shouldnt prove a problem.

Single turbo could work too, id see it going on top of the gearbox ( look at the new insignia OPC/VXR V6 4x4.. that turbo sits nicely atop the box)

not could work, but works very well.. take a look at my setup..

Louis
10-02-2010, 01:23 AM
YES!!
Some Different routes so far:

There are various threads and posts on here re turbos and what has been done so far.
do a search for Madhav, KKR280, Gowf, TD04 9b gto, Valmes TD04 13t, 16t Subaru forester, Valmes TD05 twin, Kev ay AP motors TD04's forged internals, 497@1.2bar, UK, and there are also at least three big single set ups, Zentac, GT287653R, & GT35R UK (quickest 6A13 in the world so far 11.082@135.5, and mpau009s single TD-05 from a 6.5 TME in NZ, & Mante in US.
A guy in antigua with a single T60-1 on a 6A13 swapped FTO
Lots of info that will help you see what routes and achievements others have made so far, including custom exhaust manifolds, intake manifolds, re profiled cams, Forged rods & pistons, LS1 maf, etc.
I am sure you are more than capable given your background, but there is info here that will assist you, the searchy thing works quite well, :) , good luck,

wintertidenz
10-02-2010, 01:49 AM
mpau009 is the one in NZ, don't think he's finished it yet :)

bradc
10-02-2010, 07:04 AM
His is a single TD-05 from a 6.5 TME

scientist
10-02-2010, 01:50 PM
There's a guy in antigua with a single T60-1 on a 6A13 swapped FTO. the job isn't the cleanest but he made it work

Louis
10-02-2010, 09:06 PM
I will edit my post to ad these details, it might be useful for copying and pasting info!, anyone else know of any other approaches to upgrading turbos?

Anyone know what Madhav's set up is??

Nutter_John
10-02-2010, 09:11 PM
Eurospecs womble has two td05-20g turbos on it pushing 599bhp (tis in an fto )

raph
10-02-2010, 09:18 PM
Has any one treid a Maftranslator/Maft pro? to use a gm 3" (Ls1) Maf? it works in 3000gts+Dsms.. must work in the galant too


keep those suggestions coming

Mante, are you running a Maf-trans? Anymore pics from your setup? looks clean with the Intake behind the Headlight.. you remove the headlight at the track?

Turbo_Steve
10-02-2010, 10:12 PM
What are the benefits of rescaling the MAF over running a proper standalone?

Why not just fit a calibrated bypass to the factory setup: the net result is the same?

Goku
10-02-2010, 10:50 PM
I personally think a map is a better option over a maf. I run a link plus G3 with a map and it runs a lot smoother than with the maf.

Mante
10-02-2010, 11:01 PM
Mante, are you running a Maf-trans? Anymore pics from your setup? looks clean with the Intake behind the Headlight.. you remove the headlight at the track?

No, running Aem EMS the one for the 3000gt. few other pics of the setup (http://www.bernardhill.net/photos/2008/07_16_Arfab/) I do take the headlight out but only at the drag strip. Since I am still learning they require the light while on the circuit..

Turbo_Steve
11-02-2010, 12:31 AM
MAF tune is technically superior as you're actually measuring the Mass of air being used, rather than calculating engine load based on a pressure reading factored against a temperature reading, usually factored against an additional factor like a speed-density table or whatever. Three times factored means 3 times as much possibility for there to be an error.

That being said, it's an extremely technical reason for it to be inferior. Generally a well setup MAP sensor with good, accurate temperature mesurement and good tables will be just as good as a MAF.

I'm surprised you found it smoother, though: normally MAF based load measurement is better for smooth, daily driving: as long as the ECU it's connected to is properly setup (i.e. dumpvalve, inlet tract length, TPS back-stacking etc)

Madhav
12-02-2010, 10:28 AM
I'm running twin KKR 280 turbos, just converted to a manual transmission, running well. Using Haltech E11 ECU. Last dyno was 260kw atw with the old auto transmission, so I suspect now the power would be 280kw atw. Will update my build ride soon

Mante
12-02-2010, 02:26 PM
I'm running twin KKR 280 turbos, just converted to a manual transmission, running well. Using Haltech E11 ECU. Last dyno was 260kw atw with the old auto transmission, so I suspect now the power would be 280kw atw. Will update my build ride soon

have any pics of the layout? 260 kW is roughly 350 hp?

Nutter_John
12-02-2010, 02:28 PM
Yeah 350 BHP at the wheels is huge , what sort of torque are you pulling as GOWF did 500 ft/llbs on 109 ron fuel

Subaru ETA
14-02-2010, 07:24 AM
raph, do a search on kenneths posts. he was toying with the use of a LS1 maf off a holden a wee while ago .

bradc
14-02-2010, 06:55 PM
All we need someone to figure out is how to setup a sequential setup using the stock pair of turbos and then a big GT35R from 4500rpm upwards :) Who's up for the challenge?

Turbo_Steve
14-02-2010, 10:12 PM
Well, you're going to need much bigger wastegates on the standard turbos for a start. Which means removing them, and converting to external wastegates, which means modifying the manifolds. And darn it, if that's the case, you might as well just go for a decent single conversion, or decent twins.

A GT35R should spool reasonably well on a 2.5 6 cyl. It won't be as early as standard, but it should be around 3500rpm - 4000rpm or so?

Mante
14-02-2010, 11:24 PM
All we need someone to figure out is how to setup a sequential setup using the stock pair of turbos and then a big GT35R from 4500rpm upwards :) Who's up for the challenge?

No need to use the stockers.. the GT35R spools at 3300 (starts responding @ 3100)

AlanDITD
15-02-2010, 01:49 AM
[To Mante]...how about you share some specs of this beast....im interested for one :)

elnevio
15-02-2010, 02:46 AM
Thread now mown.

Now the moan - no flaming, please! :flamed:


Keep the discussion on topic - and definitely keep away from the wang-waving competition. :rulez:

djb160
15-02-2010, 02:48 AM
I think Tylers is a GT35/40 just to add another name.

Madhav
15-02-2010, 03:03 AM
No need to use the stockers.. the GT35R spools at 3300 (starts responding @ 3100)

Have you posted a dyno chart showing boost pressure VS RPM anywhere? Kinda like the one shown on this (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36862&page=6&highlight=kkr+280+6a13tt) page.

Mante
15-02-2010, 03:21 AM
[To Mante]...how about you share some specs of this beast....im interested for one :)

Parts list and images can be found here (http://www.bernardhill.net/vr4)

Madhav
15-02-2010, 05:00 AM
Parts list and images can be found here (http://www.bernardhill.net/vr4)

Sorry for so many questions, but since we are running similar power and all I'm assuming your rod and pistons etc are stock and not forged?

If so for how many miles have you run it with 368whp?

Quite a few people are of the belief that these 6A13TT engines can not safely handle any power output above 330whp, and anything more will eventually cause the rods to let go.

From what myself, yourself, Gowf and Valmes have achieved, I reckon with a good tune they can safely run up to 380whp, maybe more. I guess time will tell.

Mante
15-02-2010, 05:33 AM
Sorry for so many questions, but since we are running similar power and all I'm assuming your rod and pistons etc are stock and not forged?

If so for how many miles have you run it with 368whp?

Quite a few people are of the belief that these 6A13TT engines can not safely handle any power output above 330whp, and anything more will eventually cause the rods to let go.

From what myself, yourself, Gowf and Valmes have achieved, I reckon with a good tune they can safely run up to 380whp, maybe more. I guess time will tell.

I can check the mileage tomorrow but the motor is stock. Setup was completed August 2008, since then 6 track days (circuit and drag) several top speed runs on 5 mile stretch of road. Daily driven at certain points, all in all driven hard & well maintained. No signs of seal failures but I have destroyed a rear diff and t -case in the time. The Tcase had a seal that leaked and I never addressed it.

I may have gotten a lucky 6a13 but so far so good.

Madhav
15-02-2010, 05:45 AM
Sounds good mate, just what I thought these engines seem pretty strong.

You destroyed an AYC diff?

Mante
15-02-2010, 05:56 AM
Sounds good mate, just what I thought these engines seem pretty strong.

You destroyed an AYC diff?

Destroyed two, one doing a 6k launch at the drag strip.. One coming out of a hairpin turn got heavy on the throttle.. I suspect I should have changed the diff fluid before that track day..

KiwiTT
15-02-2010, 08:36 AM
Parts list and images can be found here (http://www.bernardhill.net/vr4)OT: I am impressed. A lot of work has gone into making that VR-4 a fine example of what is possible (like others here). It makes my first non-mitsubishi mod (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39283) seem tame in comparison.

bradc
15-02-2010, 10:58 AM
What is the top speed you've acheived?

Mante
17-02-2010, 03:08 PM
What is the top speed you've acheived?

I keep getting it mixed up with another vehicle its either 186 or 183 mph.. done in a controlled environment. :)

Nutter_John
17-02-2010, 03:17 PM
At what revs are you hitting that speed Mante ?

Mante
17-02-2010, 03:21 PM
I have no idea, I do know I ran out of gear

bradc
17-02-2010, 07:50 PM
Thats about 7800-8000rpm or so from memory.

valmes
07-12-2010, 04:07 AM
Just a small update.

My "former" car was finally put on the dyno by its new owners... 455bhp at 1.4 bars. Still on stock internals. I think its still capable of more boost, but seen as some people were bending their rods due to knocking (at 507bhp level - car made by other vr-4.ru member) I guess the stock internals can hold the power fine for up to ~ 450-470bhp if everything esle is right (parts&tune)... the first thing to upgrade after that are rods.

bradc
07-12-2010, 11:13 AM
Is that 450hp at the wheels?

valmes
08-12-2010, 03:00 AM
No Brad, its crank power.

zentac
08-12-2010, 09:17 AM
its not that standard rods wont make the power, its how long they will last at that power, mine lasted 12 months before it put a rod out the side of the block.

They only recommend standard EVO rods up to 400-450 flywheel, and they are a lot meatier than standard VR4 rods.

and you don't bend rods due to knock, you bend them due to excess pressure. There was no knock what so ever on my engine.

bradc
08-12-2010, 11:03 AM
That is 100-115hp per rod in an evo though and 75hp or so in ours.

Nutter_John
08-12-2010, 03:57 PM
The vr4 produces a lot more torque than an evo so your looking more like 370ft/lbs for the evo and Gowf made 500ft/lbs on his 450 bhp , so thats 83 ft/lbs for the vr4 versus 92 on the evo so it's very close