Photo of stock injector

[-LegnumVR4-]

Need photos of stock a injector from the VR-4s. Just want to compare them to other brands.

Cheers,

Rhys

[enigma]

will post some when I get home.....

[enigma]

As promised :D

[-LegnumVR4-]

Thanks Dave :thumb1:

[valmes]

My phone for some reasons can't upload pictures (as of this morning) to my PC... :(

So what are they? High or Low impendance?

Anybody knows of a goog upgrade?

Anybody upgraded yet?

FTO guys in Australia got 720 cc for their 6a13 engines...

... and the FWD Galant from TW has SARD 550 cc injectors in it.

SARD injectors do indeed look very similar to ours!

[-LegnumVR4-]

Well i know the injectors used in the 1996 GSR 1.8l are the same as ours. I've jumped on the Lancer Reg forum and asked if the 560cc injectors (EVO6) will fit the GSR 1.8, that way we'll know if we can just use them.

At the moment none has replied :(

[valmes]

I've seen the injectors from 1st generation of VR4 (4g63 - 450 cc) they differ from ours.

I know that dannyboyau (at www.ftoaustralia.com) or FTOLTD (at this forum) is running larger sized injectors on his 6a13 engined FTO. 590cc?

dannyboyau wrote(An interesting read on FTO 6a13 conversion (http://www.ftoaustralia.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=77&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) ):
"hi folks
just a little update
should get the clutch back on monday then it will be just a few days till it should be back on the road, will post a few new pics later in the week of the twin plate clutch, solid engine mounts, titanium wipers, DBA gold rotors, engine cover, 590cc injectors and the melted piston "

"finnally got my injectors and they have been tested to 940 cc at 90 psi, mmmm lots of fuel couple more minor things to do to the fuel system, so there should be plenty of fuel for when we get the clutch sorted, just need to get this other motor built so we can push the boost right up. MMMMMMMMMMM cant wait ((( damn this clutch ))) "

"hi everybody
i get a emails asking about the conversion, usually asking the same type of questions,
Could you post any questions here as it will save me answering the same question several times, and will benefit anyone else who is interested.
Cheers "

I was unable to get registered at FTO forum, so if this offer is still valid... :) can you answer some questions here?

PS: ? And Jeff (from same forum www.ftoaustralia.com) got 760cc?
This info is on from site(http://www.uq.net.au/whocares/FTO.html):
4. Fuel System. A walbrough 1000hp fuel pump and upgrading all 6 injectors to msd 850cc. & SX fuel reg.

[FTOLTD]

yea sure i can answer any questions, the new motor is in have had it handle over 26 Lb boost. I have also made some custom fuel rails to suit the bigger injectors. If you are going to run bigger injectors you need to be able to map the fuel, so aftermarket computer or piggy back computer is needed.

What do you want to know

[valmes]

Everything!!! :)

But I guess we should only type one question at a time...

What injectors have you upgraded to?

What's your turbo flow rate(cfm, lb/min)?

Why have you melted a piston? Leaned out or is 400 hp mark kind of too much for stock pistons? Btw I am still confused with the numbers here, is it WHP or BHP?

Why did you have to modify your crank sensor?

Opps... :-D too many questions already. :)
Well, with outside temperatures holding in -30s C (for a second week), I have plenty of time to come up with new ones. Stay tuned :).

[FTOLTD]

Everything!!! :)

But I guess we should only type one question at a time...

What injectors have you upgraded to?

790cc , they are 10mm longer so i have made fuel rails to suit and also have made bigger spacers so that they can be used with the original fuel rails.



What's your turbo flow rate(cfm, lb/min)?

The turbo is a GT30 Garrett ballbearing and is roughly rated at 500 Hp the flow rates depend on the boost and efficency of your setup.



Why have you melted a piston? Leaned out or is 400 hp mark kind of too much for stock pistons? Btw I am still confused with the numbers here, is it WHP or BHP?

I can only speculate on why i melted the piston, It could have been a bad batch of fuel, could have leaned out. I can definately say that it was caused by detonation, there can be several reasons for detonation, the most common is poor tuning. The two motors that i detonated pistons on were tuned each time with in a week of them detonating. I no longer use this tuner and will never use him again, just incase it was his tuning that caused it.

I ran the stock pistons at 18 Lb boost for almost a year, that was around 400 Hp @ the wheels


Why did you have to modify your crank sensor?

I had to modify the crank sensor to suit the computer we used.

[-LegnumVR4-]

What brand of injectors are u using? Got any photos of them?

Do have any photos of ur custom and factory fuel rails and spaces with the injectors installed?

Cheers,

Rhys

[Spirit]

Anyone got the actual part number of the standard Mitsy injectors for the VR4 ?

Ta

[-LegnumVR4-]

MD319793

Injector Kit, thats all the bits with the injector like the o'rings and a couple of other ring things that go with it.

Rhys

[valmes]

FTOLTD thanks for your answers!

If you can answer just one more... :)
I guess it is the same question that came from -LegnumVR4-...
...790 cc? Who produces them? Which company? (Low Hi Imp?)

When are you going to try timing it(your turbo FTO) on 402m?

[valmes]

Well... they don't seem to be willing to share that information...

From what I found - our injectors should be similar to those from GTO (though they use smaller 360 cc/2 nozzles/top feed/low imp ones... ours are 390/4 nozzles/top feed/low imp??).

GTO/3000GT Stock injector (http://www.stealth316.com/2-inj360.htm)
Upgrading injectors 3S style... ;) (http://www.stealth316.com/2-injectors.htm)

SARD or MSD... well any brand I guess that has injectors of similar dimensions and specifications... and of course with needed flow (cc).

One more interesting link:

Try it! It shows how much our stock injectors can handle. (http://www.bulletproofperformance.com/_tech_enginecalc.html) Just dont forget to change initial values... :)

[enigma]

Having got the multimeter out and read a resistance of 14.8ohms I would say our injectors are high impedance? I have read that low impedance ones are of the order of 2ohms.

Dont quote me on that though :rolleyes5

[valmes]

Most Mitsubishi Turbo Cars come with stock low imp injectors.... and NA ones come with high imp.

Why 8G Legnum/Galant should be any different?

Can anybody sort this out? :rolleyes5

[enigma]

Athough not specific to the VR4 it does give a lot of info on the sister car the 3000GT.........

Injectors (http://www.stealth316.com/2-injectortypes.htm)

[valmes]

Funny... now we're posting same links... :) (Dave, look above! :) )

Contacted RPW, they might know what we have...

...and here is another link:
"Takakaira.com" List of injectors upgrades available to other cars... (http://www.takakaira.com/asp/template.asp?cat=2&id=66&prodID=NOoKlLlgiHjfmIh)

"CD5A [evo 1-3 shape] lancer GSR injectors 390cc top feed low impedence
CM5A [95 onwards (evo 4 shape)] lancer GSR injectors ???cc top feed high impedence. "

above info came from here: (http://www.msport.co.nz/viewtopic.php?t=6&sid=b55dd34a1b5ee803a0722cd86fa38daa)

If information, that 1996 EVO GSR 1.8(4G93T/CM5A) injector is the same as in 8G VR-4, then we have an answer - high imp!

So this should fit our cars prefectly, since I saw some of the GSR guys going for it as an upgrade (see link to Takakaira.com above). Have to verify it though...:

550cc Injector; Skyline HCR32 RB20DET; Connector type - Angle; # of Nozzels - 1; High imp; Price - ¥12000 US$111

Most Turbo Toyota injectors would also fit the bill, with some modifications to connector...

[FTOLTD]

Well... they don't seem to be willing to share that information...

From what I found - our injectors should be similar to those from GTO (though they use smaller 360 cc/2 nozzles/top feed/low imp ones... ours are 390/4 nozzles/top feed/low imp??). :)


I would share it if i could, but the supplier wont say who the manufacturer is and even has gone to the point of scraping the numbers off the injectors. They are high impedence.

I can deffinately say that the 6A13 TT engine injectors are nothing like the GTO injectors.

I did try and find out who made the injectors that are in our engines, i was in contact with bosch in germany by email and phone they could not identify them. They are made under licence to bosch ( common practice as bosch holds the patent ) I did get some information that suggests that a japanese company by the name of JECS made the 6A13 TT injectors.

The biggest problem is that the 6A13 TT injectors are only about 56mm long and are very short compared to normal injectors, i did find some short ones at 550cc but are still too small for my needs.




GTO/3000GT Stock injector (http://www.stealth316.com/2-inj360.htm)
Upgrading injectors 3S style... ;) (http://www.stealth316.com/2-injectors.htm)

SARD or MSD... well any brand I guess that has injectors of similar dimensions and specifications... and of course with needed flow (cc).

One more interesting link:

Try it! It shows how much our stock injectors can handle. (http://www.bulletproofperformance.com/_tech_enginecalc.html) Just dont forget to change initial values... :)

i will take some photos of the injectors and fuel rails but need to remove them from the car, so please dont hold your breath as i wont be taking them out to take photos. next time i am performing work and the manifold needs to come off i will take them out and photograph them.

[FTOLTD]

Funny... now we're posting same links... :) (Dave, look above! :) )

Contacted RPW, they might know what we have...

...and here is another link:
"Takakaira.com" List of injectors upgrades available to other cars... (http://www.takakaira.com/asp/template.asp?cat=2&id=66&prodID=NOoKlLlgiHjfmIh)

"CD5A [evo 1-3 shape] lancer GSR injectors 390cc top feed low impedence
CM5A [95 onwards (evo 4 shape)] lancer GSR injectors ???cc top feed high impedence. "
above info came from here: (http://www.msport.co.nz/viewtopic.php?t=6&sid=b55dd34a1b5ee803a0722cd86fa38daa)

If information, that 1996 EVO GSR 1.8(4G93T/CM5A) injector is the same as in 8G VR-4, then we have an answer - high imp!

So this should fit our cars prefectly (from the link to Takakaira.com above):
550cc Injector; Skyline HCR32 RB20DET; Connector type - Angle; # of Nozzels - 1; High imp; Price - ¥12000 US$111

Most Turbo Toyota injectors would also fit the bill, with some modifications to connector...

sorry buddy but they are not the same as 6A13TT engine, the 6a13TT has a top feed high impedence injector with a oval connector with 4 nozzles

how ever you have come very close to the mark with the toyota comment, you would need to get injectors from or for the late model 2.5 ltr 1JZ VVTi motors. these are very similar to the 6A13TT injectors and are about 10mm longer.

[enigma]

The biggest problem is that the 6A13 TT injectors are only about 56mm long and are very short compared to normal injectors, i did find some short ones at 550cc but are still too small for my needs.



550s will do me nicely...............where did you find them? :D

[enigma]

grrrr bump as it doesn't show my post ^^^^^

[valmes]

FTOLTD thanks for clearing up some of the confusion... ;)
and yeah... where did you find 550cc? It'll work better then stock!

Here is a rough guide to injectors maximum efficiency (6a13 VE 85%, TE 74%, I/CE 80%, A/F 12.5:1, FP 300KPa, 100% Dcycle):

390cc* at 14 PSI Boost (540 CFM) ~ 360 BHP
440cc** at 18 PSI Boost (620 CFM) ~ 410 BHP
540cc at 26 PSI Boost (770 CFM) ~500 BHP (for VE 100% at 19.5 PSI)
660cc at 36 PSI Boost (960 CFM) ~ 610BPH (for VE 100% at 27.5 PSI)
720cc at 41 PSI Boost (1050 CFM) ~ 660BHP (for VE 100% at 32 PSI)

*stock 6a13 injectors
**stock JDM 1JZ-GTE VVTi injectors

Keep in mind that as volumetric efficiency increases... so does the Air Flow... hence even more fuel is needed at the same boost levels... :) same if you want to get A/F ratio down... so to be on the safe side, when calculating for injectors sizes, consider VE to be 100% and A/F of at least 12.5:1 !!!

Rising Fuel Pressure helps to flow a bit more... ;)

Convert PSI to BAR or KPA (http://www.chromatography.co.uk/Techniqs/Other/Pressure.htm)

[Kieran]

Am I reading your calculations correctly, and you're basing the injector size on a 100% Injector duty cycle?

If so, I thought you should always calculate based on a 80-85% duty cycle - to safeguard the injectors when you're at wide open throttle?

[valmes]

Above calculations just suggest a maximum flow of differently sized injectors on our cars... not a "safe" limit!

So at stock fuel pressure (300KPA or 44 PSI or 3 Bar), with stock turbos (rated at 275 CFM per turbo... 550 CFM for both) working hard producing almost 1 bar of boost (14 PSI... 1 bar is actually 14,7 PSI), but still in their efficiency range ...

... you can get out 360 BHP or a even more, but at risk of eventually leaning out (you won't be able to keep A/F ratio 12.5:1 if you go above 360 BHP) due to your injectors failing to provide the needed amount of fuel...
If you want to keep it safe - keep it stock! But we do like to push our cars to their limits! :)

In fact injectors are rated at fixed Fuel Pressure(mostly at 44PSI)... so if we want to flow more (i didn’t say it was safe! ;) ) we can rise this a little. FPRegulator (stock one keeps things even = for every 1 bar of boost it ups the pressure in fuel rail by 1 bar) does just that, it allows you to "play" with fuel pressure, but you'll be pushing stock fuel pump to its limits (our pump is of better performance than EVO6, but not by much).

So with everything stock you can "safely" get 300-310 BHP. :p
Wouldn't have much trouble going into 330-340 BHP range! :-D
Can occasionally push it all the way up to 360 :lipsrseal (some people do it on a daily basis and can still get away with it! :rolleyes5 )!
And can "theoretically" achieve even higher figures... like 370-390 BHP, but at risk of looking for a spare engine! ;)

Here... if you want to calculate a "safe" sized injectors use this formula below:

Sizing Injectors
While there are many different types and styles of injectors on the market today, it's important to note that all manufacturers use the same basic method of sizing, regardless of country of origin. Domestic injectors usually measure fuel flow in terms of pounds per hour (lbs/hr) while international applications measure in cubic centimeter (cc's).

A simple way to figure what size injector you need is to divide an engine's peak horsepower at the flywheel by the number of injectors. That number should then be multiplied by the Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC). For a naturally aspirated engine, this number is typically. 50 After you've finished multiplying, divide that by a Duty Cycle of .80. The formula looks like this:

HP / Number of Injectors x BSFC / Duty Cycle

Here's an example for an eight cylinder engine that we found would need a 24 lb/hr injector:

300 HP / 8 = 37.5 --> 37.5 X .50 BSFC = 18.75 --> 18.75 / .80 Duty Cycle = 23.43

To convert lbs/hr to cc's, multiply by 10.2. To convert cc's to lbs/hr, divide by 10.2.

Readers should note, however, what Brake Specific Fuel Consumption factor is in order to use the above formula correctly. A BSFC of .50 means an engine will use .50lbs of fuel per hour for each horsepower it produces. Competition engines with high volumetric efficiency should use a BSFC of .45 while forced induction engines should use a figure of .65.

PS: For our cars it would look like this:
Stock:
280/6= 46,67
46,67*0,65= 30,34
30,34/0,80= 37,93 lbs/h
37,93*10,2=386,89 (Well... our stock injectors are 390cc)

And in order to get "safe" 360BHP we would have to run 497cc injectors!

[enigma]

... you can get out 360 BHP or a even more, but at risk of eventually leaning out (you won't be able to keep A/F ratio 12.5:1 if you go above 360 BHP) due to your injectors failing to provide the needed amount of fuel...
If you want to keep it safe - keep it stock! But we do like to push our cars to their limits! :)

......................

So with everything stock you can "safely" get 300-310 BHP. :p
Wouldn't have much trouble going into 330-340 BHP range! :-D
Can occasionally push it all the way up to 360 :lipsrseal (some people do it on a daily basis and can still get away with it! :rolleyes5 )!
And can "theoretically" achieve even higher figures... like 370-390 BHP, but at risk of looking for a spare engine! ;)



New engine is being fitted next week :$
I am looking for new injectors
I have the EManage ready to go in

[valmes]

Well, same here!

Full e-manage package+e01BC, GreddyWideBand+EGT sensor, Walbro 255L/H HP Fuel Pump, NGK PowerCable and some other stuff waiting to be fitted.

I am also trying to source the injectors... hopefully I can find 550-720 cc (before I fit new turbos)... :).

[Kieran]

PS: For our cars it would look like this:
Stock:
280/6= 46,67
46,67*0,65= 30,34
30,34/0,80= 37,93 lbs/h
37,93*10,2=386,89 (Well... our stock injectors are 390cc)

And in order to get "safe" 360BHP we would have to run 497cc injectors!

Very interesting and useful information!! Thanks! :)

For my stock V6 - I've used a BSFC of 0.50 (which I've read is the figure for a standard n/a engine):

161/6= 26.83
26.83*0,50= 13.415
13.415/0,80= 16.76 lbs/h
16.76*10,2=170.95

The V6-24 is fitted with 210cc injectors I think - According to Dave, these injectors have a maximum 'Safe' rating of 192bhp before you need to increase fuelling - And the above formula bears this out! Excellent!

Look out for the all-new Galant 180-S :devil5:

[borgan]

I may be the one that's wrong but I've always assumed that you divide injector cc by 5 & multiply by number of injectors for hp amount at 100% flow. Browsed the net & found the info below.


So, how much power is this injector good for? That depends on the air/fuel ratio that is used, but a good rule of thumb is to divide this flow figure by 5 to get a hp capability. So, 185cc divided by 5 = 37hp maximum fuel flow with this injector. If you want to be pedantic, it's the mass of the fuel (not the volume) which is the critical factor. Assuming a "normal" fuel density, the mass of the fuel in pounds per hour can be worked out by multiplying the cc per minute figure by 10.2. For this Bosch injector, that gives a mass flow of 18.1 pounds/hour. To convert from pounds/hour to horsepower capability, multiply the figure by 2.04. So 18 pounds/hour multiplied by 2.04 gives a horsepower capability of 37hp - the same as we got from the cc/minute figure.


Taking into account BSFC 0.5/0.65 is aprox 0.77 so you'd expect to have multiply 0.77 by total hp for new figure if you were using a turbo. However, running 10 psi of boost would mean increasing fuel pressure by 10 psi. If base fuel pressure was 43.5 then at 10 psi of boost your fuel pressure would be 53.5 psi. 53.5 / 43.5 = aprox 23% more fuel pressure. So you'd have 23% more flow through your injectors but would require 23% more fuel for each hp produced. Therefore the above calculation would apply for n/a & turbo engines.

I could be so wrong here (maths/physics were never my forte) so please enlighten me. Am I right or wrong. I thought that that (390/5) * 6 * .85 would mean that std injectors good for aprox 400 hp at 85% duty cycle. My car was mapped by Owen Developments at 378 hp & 383 lb/ft before front turbo seized. No fuelling issues on std pump, regulator & injectors. Never had any issues with excessive egt's.

Also curious that 3000 gt only run with 360 cc injectors.

[FTOLTD]

grrrr bump as it doesn't show my post ^^^^^


http://www.power-enterprise.co.jp/

[valmes]

Stock FPR is set to 1:1 ratio... so for every 1 bar of boost at manifold it rises pressure in fuel line by 1 bar. That means that "relative" pressure of an injector(tip) against a mass of compressed air pushed into the cylinder chamber stays the same all the time(at about 44 psi). So the flow is unchanged... well here:

The differential fuel line pressure (psi) is the difference between the actual line pressure and the boost pressure in the manifold. Our cars are designed to maintain a 43 psi differential pressure.

Look at the bottom of the page for fuel flow and inj sizing calculation (http://www.stealth316.com/2-air-fuel-flow.htm)

More links:

Fuel Injector Flow calculator (if "relative" pressure is changed) (http://www.csgnetwork.com/fiflowcalc.html)

Precisionturbo.net - about injectors (http://www.precisionturbo.net/techinfoarch.php)

One more link with inj sizing calculator (http://www.injector.com/injectorselection.php)

MSD injector sizing calculations (http://www.msdignition.com/fuel_1.htm)

Increasing fuel pressure (http://www.msdignition.com/fuel_6.htm)

PS: MSD offers two higher flow injectors that are designed primarily for quick response time with a 12 volt saturated circuit driver. The PN 2018 Injector is rated at 38 lb/hr with 12 ohms and the PN 2013 is a 50 lb/hr, 12 ohm injector. Look here (http://www.msdignition.com/fuel_3.htm)

[valmes]

David T. from RPW replied:

"WE have access to some 450cc injectors for your car but these are special
low impedance unit to my knowledge on the vehice.
There are some 650cc units I beleive i can get which will be a direct bolt
in for your vehicle same design as the stock injectors."

Still waiting for the price quote...

[enigma]

low impedence?????

[valmes]

I think we can use low imp+resistor pack (might be what was meant by "special") as long as they are "direct bolt in" in all other ways(size, top feed, etc).

... or may be they have no clue... :(