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paulmc
13-01-2005, 02:47 PM
My Plan, hope this is the right bit to post in.

VR4 Legnum.

are these all the same spec, I noticed that some of you are talking about 260 bhp

Max boost 0.95bar until I decide which route to take to stop fuel cuts. will 0.95 give me over 300bhp.

I will be using the Dawes device to control boost. I used it on my evo 5 peak of 1.7bar dropping to 1.5 at 6k. worked very well.

iridium plugs

What is the max boost the standard turbos can take/produce with out just pumping hot air, can i make enought boost to run 380bhp

De-cat exhaust

Cone air filter


any other bits I have missed or indead ideas go for it. sorry if this has been asked before, I have been searching through the forum but cant find enought answers

cheers

Paul

enigma
13-01-2005, 03:15 PM
Your wish list is not nearly long enough for 380BHP :lipsrseal

Also its all very well having the extra power, but you may want to consider investing elsewhere on the car to get the entire package.

What are your plans for the car? 380BHP reliably everyday is I fear is not going to be easy, or cheap. I wouldn't put my faith in a dawes device without a very good boost gauge and data logger at those sorts of power levels. You will find you will have fuelling issues and turbo problems at these figures..........thats why you wont see many claims above 330BHP, its too darn expensive!

paulmc
13-01-2005, 06:01 PM
in the end prob the below

Power FC ecu
Full stainless exhaust
HKS filter
Standard turbos keep costs down
Lower springs
uprated dampers
Not sure how good the brakes are but ? uprate them
Not sure about fuel pump ? uprate

I was kind of hoping because it was along the same lines as the evo, it would be plug and play.

evo,

Power engineering ecu
Fuel pump
Air filter
1.5 boost held
= 360 bhp

I used it every day covered around 10k not a single prob.

The VR4 will be a daily runner, school run etc. I am very fussy re oil changes, fluid changes, always heat up and cool down properly but the inbetween bit can be quite full on


I will up the boost to 0.9bar when i get it then play from there

please air your thoughts/ideas or if u think I am a complete nutter thats fine to and feel free to ad to my small list

thers is not much info on this car apart from on here which i must say is very good

cheers

Paul

valmes
13-01-2005, 08:03 PM
- There are no Power FC ECU for our cars
- Brakes are crap
- 2 Small TC03 Turbos rated at 550CFM(275CFM each)... at 2PR (1bar) they are already at only 60% eff.
- 390cc injectors (can go up to 340BHP safe... you might get them to flow all way up to 380BHP, but if for any reason one of them fails, working at 100%DC.. you get... well, you get the idea),
- 190lph stock fuel pump... but for some reasons mine has died. upgraded to Walbro 255lph hp

You can stay almost stock and try to go for that number, but it is kind of risky.

- Some boost Gauge (we don't have it stock as on EVO)
- ECU upgrade. Lots of options here.
a) stick with stock ECU, get HKS FCD K3 (or you will get a lot of fuel cuts at boost of 0,9 bar) and some electronic boost controler
b) e-Manage+ProfecE01
c) MINES, PROS_Eng, BozzSpeed (based on stock ECU)... you will still wont to keep you EBC
d) Full standalone programable units such as Motec, Autronic, Haltech, AEM, Wolf3d etc
- HKS intake/ARC intake... whatever you feel is good
- CAI of some sort+EVO style hood
- Full exhaust+de-cat+Kakimoto(or PROS) downpipes
- Brakes upgrade

- Cusco or other piping kit
- Upgraded Power and Earthing Cables
- Iridium Plugs
- Greddy V-SPL (R-SPL) is a good upgrade from stock intercooler
- Suspention upgrade

If you decide to...
- Upgrade Turbos (Custom manifolds, mods to downpipes, WGates)
- BlowOff Valve
- Good set of Gauges (W02, EGT, FP, etc... )
- FPR
- Walbro 255lph hp or bigger
- Bigger injectors :rolleyes:
- Greddy engine oil cooler kit
- Get Ceramic Clutch or upgrade your auto box
- Pistons and Rods

Have I forgot anything? :-D

enigma
13-01-2005, 08:36 PM
Have I forgot anything? :-D

Only the deep deep wallets required! I reckon you are looking at at least £10k to do it properly!

Nick Mann
13-01-2005, 08:37 PM
What they said!

The 260 is pre-facelift auto's. All other were 280. There has been much talk over what the difference is, but I think with evidence so far it is most likely the boost pressure. (People have swapped ecu's on cars with already increased boost and not noticed much - if any - change.)

It seems like the best way to get increased power is higher boost, but as Dave says, fuelling becomes an issue too. I am not going to argue with the numbers that have been quoted above!!

One other thing, especially if you have owned and properly driven an Evo. UPRATE THE BRAKES! options are basically the same as the Evo. Some people here have got brembos 2nd hand off Evos, as that is a big upgrade from standard. The same is true with the VR4, though - the stock 16" wheels won't cope with bigger parts behind them.

paulmc
13-01-2005, 08:49 PM
thanks very good info there,

Looks like I will be knocking 40bhp off that figure :sad3:

so if i have an exhaust, filter and around 1 bar of boost will i be at the 340mark. I don't want to spend loads on the car straight out of the box, as we all know bhp is addictive and very expensive.

Paul

enigma
13-01-2005, 08:56 PM
Still dont think you will hit 340 easily!

1 member hit 333 on the rollers but had a unichip and a pro setup in addition to your list ;)

You could always go the NOS route, but it is not always on, and you will find it costs a lot in refills! My last bottle was 'gone in 60 seconds'

Kieran
13-01-2005, 09:00 PM
...so if i have an exhaust, filter and around 1 bar of boost will i be at the 340mark...

Umm... think that's a tad optimistic. From a 260bhp car, I'd say this will wang the power to about 300... Pete's old VR-4 was around that level with those modifications.

Unfortunately, as good as the VR-4 is, it's not been embraced by tuners in the same way as the EVO and the 3000GT. :sad3:

But that just makes it more of a challenge! :-D

Roadrunner
13-01-2005, 09:15 PM
The difference between a 380bhp and a 300bhp VR-4 is probably only around 1 second from 0-100. As others have said, you can get to 300-320bhp at relatively little expense - decat, freer-flowing exhaust, boost up to 0.9/0.95 bar will give you 300-320bhp depending on initial spec without needing to change anything else. That makes the car quicker than most anything else on the road anyway and, as long as you know your limitations (e.g. don't try to outhandle an Exige, don't try to out-accelerate BDA ;) ), you can have a trouble-free, very quick day-to-day car. I've run mine daily for the past 2¾ years and 70k+ miles without it missing a beat.

I'd also recommend upgrading the brakes first ... :D

Kieran
13-01-2005, 09:25 PM
I'd also recommend upgrading the brakes first ... :D

And if that doesn't give you a hint, I've found that upgrading to grooved discs and higher-spec pads on my V6 Sport (which is some 200+ kilos lighter than a VR-4) a very worthwhile upgrade!

paulmc
13-01-2005, 10:22 PM
Oh well thats me back down to earth with a big bang :-D

A bottle in 60 seconds :wow: I have always wanted NOS and i bet the kids would love it, but as you say expensive refilling every 60 seconds :laugh:

so 300ish it will be for the first while, better brakes and bigger wheels.

550cfm seem to be enough for 380bhp and injectors for around the same, although i could be speaking total rubbish, I have been looking around on the net at other specs not vr4's though. need to find out how to make these calculations

Fuel pump seems to struggle at over 300bhp though, will buy a walbro 255lph again.

Valmes, how bad a job is fitting the pump, does it come out the top of the tank. I am taking it for granted it is in the tank of course. When i did the evo it was a real pain, prop , exhaust had to come off, then heaps of hassle getting the tank low enough to get the pump out.

Paul

enigma
13-01-2005, 10:32 PM
There is a 'how to fit an uprated fuel pump' in the members section.......its a doddle! :D

valmes
14-01-2005, 04:24 AM
:) with Walbro its almost bolt on...

paulmc
14-01-2005, 08:05 AM
aint a member yet, looks like I need to get my cash out, almost a bolt on sounds good to me

Paul

valmes
14-01-2005, 09:10 AM
Here is a thought:

Nissan Skyline GTR R33-34 Stock:
Turbos: ~300-350CFM each
Injectors: 440cc-550cc
Fuel Pump: 250-260lph

Galant/Legnum VR4 Stock:
Turbos: ~250-275CFM each
Injectors: 390cc
Fuel Pump: ~180-190lph

:) 380 BHP on stock GTR is no problem and on a VR-4... well, at least you know where to look for power gains! :)

enigma
14-01-2005, 09:15 AM
You and I bothe know we are investigating ;)

paulmc
14-01-2005, 09:52 AM
will these turbos/injectors or indead any bigger turbo/injector fit straight on?

enigma
14-01-2005, 10:05 AM
Again, if this was the case it would have been done and we would all be running big numbers!

The thing with the 6A13TT engine is that it was only ever fitted to the 8G Galant/Legnum VR4. It has never been a product that has made it to the States and therfore there is not an unlimited amount of tuning companies that will provide performance goodies. Similarly it has not been a massive hit in the UK, so no one has done any development work with a view to 'mass' production. We are hoping to change that, but to do this we need cash. I have made an exhaust and intake system for my car, and de cats for about 30-40 people, I will be looking in to making downpipes soon, and will hopefully be looking at making some manifolds for some more manly turbos. I am also trying to source injectors that will fit and provide enough fuel, not all that easy, but not impossible! Then I will be looking at getting a deal on forged pistons and rods and copper head gaskets etc to make the engine pretty much bomb proof (although mine has been coping on 4.5-5 cylinders for the last 3000 miles!). The aim is to get up to 750BHP with nitrous.........not in my car though....and that is from each of the two engines......1500BHP total.

valmes
14-01-2005, 10:16 AM
You and I bothe know we are investigating
Hope we are on the right path! :-D


will these turbos/injectors or indead any bigger turbo/injector fit straight on?

"These" you mean from stock GTR? No.
There are some "bolt on" bigger injectors... still searching for them, but I feel it will be easier to fit resistor packs to low imp injectors instead of looking for an exact match, but without upgrading your turbos you don't really need them anyway.

paulmc
14-01-2005, 10:32 AM
dave, holy toot man u are way madder than me. I did kind of think that it would have been far to easy just to slap on other bits but u can always hope.

i need mine to be just about reliable that is why i went for 380ish only because the evo coped ok at 360 so the VR4 being 500cc bigger I was going along the lines that it would be ok at that sort of power.

the kind of power u are speaking about means rebuilding the whole car to cope with the extra stresses which runs into mental money, of course i would love to go down that route but just aint in my budet. I could always sell a couple of my kids :laugh:

have u tried this lads for gaskets, decomperssion plates etc

http://www.ferriday.co.uk/

Do you still make the exhaust pipe and cats for people?

Valmes, thats where i get lost when you start with resistor pack etc, I am more the grease monkey type, give me the bit and i will get it to fit.

enigma
14-01-2005, 10:41 AM
Do a search for Project VX and you will see where we are coming from. The aim is to build a monster car for very minimal money. The aim is to beat the RC developments EVO or the Sumo Skyline and not have the £200000 price tag! :rolleyes5

As has been stated the difference between 300 and 380 will be barely noticeable in the real world. My last run at the Pod I would put at between 400 and 450BHP and it was quite mad as you can see from the numbers!

But without nitrous and at around 330-340BHP I have done 13.9, Derek has done 13.8 (he is half my weight!) With an extra 100BHP of nitrous you lose 1 second ish..........this is all top end really though, sure you may hit 60 .3 or .4 faster, but when you are below 5 seconds anyway who is counting on the roads!

I tend to run standardish boost on the roads as there is no real point running higher.........its a quick quick car to start off with!

Polabear
14-01-2005, 11:10 AM
Fuel pump seems to struggle at over 300bhp though, will buy a walbro 255lph again.Paul

Take it from me Paul, it does, I am sick of hitting fuel cut running 315 @1bar, even at 0.9bar, so much so I have turned my B/C off untill I fit a new pump... :sad3:

paulmc
14-01-2005, 11:18 AM
can't see Project Vx, must be a member thing.

I have sent Pete £20 by paypal so hopefuly be a member soon.

sent email to Powerengineering this morning, most boring reply ever from any tuner

kiss a ss type, they seem to work best :D


Hi There
>
> I used to have a Evo 5 with one of your ECU's on it and I must say I was
very happy with the results. Rolling Road tested 360bhp 321lbs torque 1.7bar
boost peak dropping to 1.5 @6k.
>
> I am about to buy a Mitsubishi VR-4 and wondered if you can do your magic
on it also, If so would this be an off the shelf ECU like the EVO or would I
have to come down and get it mapped. If you can help what would be the
associated cost involved.
>
>
> thanks
>
> Paul.
>
reply

Hi Paul

Thanks for your enquiry.

I am sorry but we do not do any ECU mods for the VR-4 infact we do not do
any upgrades for the VR-4 .

Leave it alone it is a fantastic car.

Regards

Robert


:laugh:

enigma
14-01-2005, 11:27 AM
For about £500-£700 you can have a piggyback computer fitted and set up (Unichip or Greddy Emanage), but you wont get the full benefit without bigger turbos/injectors/intercooler etc. As has been stated none of these are bolt on jobbies. A couple of members have paid undisclosed amounts of money for turbo reworks etc with undisclosed power gains. If you are looking for easy upgrades then basically forget it!........for the time being anyway!

BDA fabrications may well be rolling options out in the future, but dont hold your breath! :rolleyes5

Take Roberts advice and enjoy the car as standard - you may well be suprised! Then make a few simple mods to get 30-50BHP more for little expense. Then seriously consider whether the huge expense is justified to get little more performance (but the bragging rights that go with it!).

paulmc
14-01-2005, 01:11 PM
I know what you are saying about power diff i.e you don't really notice it in every day situations, but it like everything else the more you have the more you want.

I remember my m8's evo 6 with 312bhp and my 5 360bhp there was deffo a big difference in power and speed, they were both rolling roaded the same day so the figures were comparable.

I have been looking at the e-manage as you suggested and this thing looks quite good and I can play with it, you can see what is coming can't you.

I wonder what happens if i do this BANG that is that piston gone then, bet it will be good fun though.

I am not as daft as I sound from the above statment as I do loads of research before jumping in but i just cant help jumping all the same.

Paul

FTOLTD
14-01-2005, 04:28 PM
Again, if this was the case it would have been done and we would all be running big numbers!

The thing with the 6A13TT engine is that it was only ever fitted to the 8G Galant/Legnum VR4. It has never been a product that has made it to the States and therfore there is not an unlimited amount of tuning companies that will provide performance goodies. Similarly it has not been a massive hit in the UK, so no one has done any development work with a view to 'mass' production. We are hoping to change that, but to do this we need cash. I have made an exhaust and intake system for my car, and de cats for about 30-40 people, I will be looking in to making downpipes soon, and will hopefully be looking at making some manifolds for some more manly turbos. I am also trying to source injectors that will fit and provide enough fuel, not all that easy, but not impossible! Then I will be looking at getting a deal on forged pistons and rods and copper head gaskets etc to make the engine pretty much bomb proof (although mine has been coping on 4.5-5 cylinders for the last 3000 miles!). The aim is to get up to 750BHP with nitrous.........not in my car though....and that is from each of the two engines......1500BHP total.

i would stick with the mitsi head gaskets as they are a metal shim style head gasket which is what HKS and some of the other japanese tuning houses sell as there uprated head gaskets. You would be better off getting a set of ARP head studs, i have run my new engine at over 26 lb boost, with no damage. still purrs, but cant tune it properly up there as the current computer can only be mapped to 21 lb, once the new computer is installed with the new GT35R turbo
i will be running it at 2 bar and will let you know how it performs

EVOLUTION
14-01-2005, 06:34 PM
- There are no Power FC ECU for our cars
-



You say there are no Apexi power FC's for this car.

A local tuning company AS Performnce assures me that this ECU will be fine to run the GALANT VR4, so i think i would be right in saying that this will also work on the LEGNUM aswell....

He can fit the Apexi Power FC for £800, that includes the fitting, obviously the ECU and the mapping required...


Jon

enigma
14-01-2005, 06:40 PM
There is definately not one available for the 8G 2.5 twin turbo 6a13TT engine!

See Here - Apexi Japan Products (http://www.apexi.co.jp/products/electronics/linup.html)

EVOLUTION
14-01-2005, 06:59 PM
Ok so there isnt a standard map available, but that doest mean to say that its not possible to create one, does it.

After all, where did all the other maps become available from.

The ECU has the abuility to control all of the sensors in the engine, so with the right program insalled on the power FC, surely it can control this engine.

My mate has a 205 with the 2.0 8V turbo engine transplanted in it and the same guy at ASP is doing exactly the same thing with a GEMS ECU, again, there is no standard map for this engine so the wholr map is from scratch


Jon

enigma
14-01-2005, 07:12 PM
Its not just the map though, the Power FC is a hardware replacement that happens to be software programmable.

EVOLUTION
14-01-2005, 07:42 PM
So what is it that the Apexi cant, or wont control then?

Also just reading through the other posts, i take it that there is no upgrade for the manifolds...

Firstly, does anyone know why, (apart from the obvious, that no one has just simply not made one?

is there any reason why this cant be simple fabricated using dimensions off the old one. Ie, copying the flanges off the stock manifold and machining them out of stainless, then getting a good stainless custom manifold place to do all the bending required????

Im not sure if its that simple or if there is anything more complicated involved, nut i would like to know, i have the machines to be able to do the machining of the flanges


Jon

enigma
14-01-2005, 07:54 PM
You are right about the manifolds - no demand = no supply! I will be making some in the not too distant future.

As for the Power FC, its as simple as saying you cant put a Nissan ECU in a Mitsubishi and expect it to work. Sure you can do a lot of work to make it physically fit - but electronic compatibility is a whole different ball park.

Power FC article (http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_0301/article.html?popularArticle)

valmes
15-01-2005, 04:12 AM
So what is it that the Apexi cant, or wont control then?

Also just reading through the other posts, i take it that there is no upgrade for the manifolds...

Firstly, does anyone know why, (apart from the obvious, that no one has just simply not made one?

is there any reason why this cant be simple fabricated using dimensions off the old one. Ie, copying the flanges off the stock manifold and machining them out of stainless, then getting a good stainless custom manifold place to do all the bending required????

Im not sure if its that simple or if there is anything more complicated involved, nut i would like to know, i have the machines to be able to do the machining of the flanges


Jon
Power FC with just an FC commander is a weak option, imo. Only authorized APEXi dealers can tune it properly and for every single try they want 1000$ (here in Russia), so even if there was an option of fitting PowerFC, I would stay clear of it. There is a comparison test of programmable ECUs on AutoSpeed and it suggests there are better options than going "PowerFC way".

Concerning the manifolds... there are custom made single turbo manifolds( ask FTOLTD :) )... and some twin turbo (in tw for example), but they are all "custom", not mass produced. Just as Dave said there is no demand for such thing in great numbers... but I think it is only until someone actually makes a 500HP car out of VR4. :) It has a great potential - 4WD, 2,5 V6 Twin Turbocharged Intercooled, AYCs... and look at prices in Japan! If "tuners" find out that they can snap it cheap and turn it into GTR spec car... :lipsrseal we won't tell'em, right? ;)

paulmc
15-01-2005, 11:34 AM
FTOLTD

What computer are you running at the moment

Paul

FTOLTD
15-01-2005, 04:32 PM
wolf 3D will be installing the microtech lt 16 as soon as it is available

paulmc
15-01-2005, 06:23 PM
fully stand alone, looks quite good from what i found on the net.

Valmes

do you have the compressor map for the VR4 turbos and what kind of CFM the engine uses.

I have tried to work this out but did not get to far, I sussed that the engine needs 152cuin @7000rpm, but i can't work out how to change this to CFM. pretty thick i know :rolleyes:

The audi S2 i used to run, peak boost was 1.4bar@ 2800rpm dropping to 0.9@7000. this was the max the turbo could safely flow accross the rev range

I am trying to work out the same for the VR4, any help on working this stuff out would be appreciated, or indeed any tech info

cheers

Paul

paulmc
16-01-2005, 12:49 PM
ok does this sound about right.

engine 224 cfm@6500 no boost
537 cfm@6500 1.2 bar boost

537cfm = 8.95cfs = 0.25 m3/s

I read that this turbo is pretty close to ours.
turbo TD04-09b 0.125 m3/s 17,000rpm 68% Efficient

X 2 = 0.25m3/s

enough to give 1.2 bar boost @6500 on 85% VE

is that ok or a lot of mince :rolleyes5

if that is the case you should be able to run 1.5 bar mid range dropping to 1bar is @ 7k


Paul

valmes
16-01-2005, 01:12 PM
There is no compressor map for our turbo (TD025 or TC03), but you can use maps for TD04-9b, which seems to be rather close to our turbo in terms of performance.

CompFlowMaps (http://www.stealth316.com/2-3s-compflowmaps.htm)

Displacement (L): 2.5
Number of Cylinders: 6
RPM (maximum): 7400
Boost Pressure (PSI): 14.7
Wanted Air/Fuel Ratio: 12.5
Ambient Temperature (C): 25
Under Hood Temp (C): 30
Ambient Pressure (PSI): 14.7
Volumetric Effiency (%): 85
Turbo Effiency (%): 74
Intercoler Effiency (%): 70
Intercooler Pressure Loss (PSI): 3

Turbo Outlet Temp (C): 129.32
Intercooler Outlet Temp (C): 56.29
Intake Air Flow (CFM): 555.1
Mas Air Flow (lb/hr): 2236.83
Mas Air Flow (lb/min): 37.28
Air Flow per Turbo (CFM): 277.55
Total Exhaust Flow (CFM): 388.57
Air Density (g/CF): 30.35
Density Ratio: 2

Fuel: Total Fuel Requirements (cc/Min): 1861.04
Minimum Injectors (cc/min): 387.72
Minimum Injectors (lb/hr): 37.28

Horse Power Estimates:
Estimated Horsepower (flywheel): 357.89
Estimated Horsepower (WHP): 275.52

In theory, you can boost up to 1.5 at mid range and as RPM rise get back to 1-0,95 bar... but its kind of hard on turbos and you will be staying out of their efficiency range (look at CMap for 9b...). Stock intercooler, 1bar MAF(apprx) sensor? ;) Knock? Well, you can try it and tell us what happens! :)

paulmc
16-01-2005, 02:20 PM
Thats a cracking link Valmes, the only maps i found were in m3/s. Makes thing a lot easier.

That info is great m8, I was pretty much in the dark up till now.

So it looks like it is possible, but just though :-b but as you say pretty hard on the turbos. I never use my car on the track or do prolonged thrashing so should hold together for a while

I have just about got an e-manage, seller not got back to me yet.

Need to find a car now though :laugh:

Paul

valmes
16-01-2005, 02:26 PM
Using "Turbofast Turbocalculator" and CMaps of TD04-9b got the following:

Bore: 81 bore
Stroke: 80.8
Num of cyl (per turbo): 3
Air temp: 25 C
Intercooler Efficiency: 70

at 3500RPM boost: 100 KPA(1 bar) VE:80% Compressor Eff:68% ~158 BHP (124 CFM per turbo)
at 4500RPM boost: 150 KPA(1.5 bar) VE:85% Compressor Eff:70% ~263 BHP (211 CFM per turbo)
at 5500RPM boost: 120 KPA(1.2 bar) VE:95% Compressor Eff:68% ~320 BHP (253 CFM per turbo)
at 6500RPM boost: 93 KPA(0.93 bar) VE:90% Compressor Eff:65% ~319 BHP (249 CFM per turbo)
at 7400RPM boost: 91 KPA(0.91 bar) VE:80% Compressor Eff:65% ~319 BHP (249 CFM per turbo)

PS: Ooops... sorry, I got it all wrong (or conservative :) ), I used 250CFM as a Max output, while its 275CFM rated output... Will have to do my home work again :).

OK, here(didn't erase the old table... just in case ;):

at 3500RPM boost: 100 KPA(1 bar) VE:80% Compressor Eff:68% ~158 BHP (124 CFM per turbo)
at 4500RPM boost: 150 KPA(1.5 bar) VE:85% Compressor Eff:70% ~263 BHP (211 CFM per turbo)
at 5500RPM boost: 140 KPA(1.4 bar) VE:95% Compressor Eff:68% ~337 BHP (268 CFM per turbo)
at 6500RPM boost: 116 KPA(1.16 bar) VE:90% Compressor Eff:60% ~348 BHP (278 CFM per turbo)
at 7400RPM boost: 112 KPA(1.12 bar) VE:80% Compressor Eff:55% ~343 BHP (277 CFM per turbo)

But for either example to work out, you really need to use at least e-manage... stock ECU will not let you go above 90-95KPA.

valmes
16-01-2005, 02:42 PM
... Well, from numbers, it seems like intercooler is one thing that can get you some major power gains... keeping turbos and injectors stock, i've been able to get to about 345-350BHP (from 320 BHP), by just upgrading the IC efficiency. Those are just “numbers”, don't know how they will turn out in real life... ;) I did buy second hand A'PEXi GT spec (610x270x78) intercooler today, so I really hope my calculations are correct... :)

... well, numbers keep going up today... now its up to 371BHP with good intercooler (better efficiency, less pressure drop), from 348BHP(look at the table above).
Hopefully injectors can cope with that. At that point fuel rail pressure should be increased… for safety reasons :)!

paulmc
16-01-2005, 03:39 PM
Big intercooler is the way forward.

Pretty good fugures for just around 1 bar boost and standard intercooler.

1.5 bar @3500 should give a very good lump of torque, must be around 350lbs just guessing though.

valmes
16-01-2005, 03:44 PM
I messed up with numbers there... will re calculate and post new ones soon. :)

paulmc
16-01-2005, 03:57 PM
oh good does that mean more power :D

valmes
16-01-2005, 04:46 PM
Look at the numbers above! :rolleyes5
Now I have to fit my Intercooler and e-manage and find some GTRs to beat!!! :) Ahhhrrr... :-D

:whip: :veryangry :wall: :evil1: :boing3: :gun2: :gun3: :gun1: :flamer1:

valmes
16-01-2005, 04:56 PM
1.5 bar @3500 should give a very good lump of torque, must be around 350lbs just guessing though

Even though, our turbos are small and spool up fast, I am not sure if they can build up 1.5 bar of boost at only 3500 rpm...

paulmc
16-01-2005, 05:00 PM
excellent work, now we just need to see if they will do that well in real life.

I have a rolling road close to where i live.

1) I intend testing it standard,

2) de-cat, freeflow exhaust and induction kit

3) boost upto 1bar ish (depends where fuel cut is)

4) e-manage and boost 1.5 bar peak dropping to 1.1

5) bigger intercooler

should be for good reading

valmes
16-01-2005, 05:14 PM
Well, I only have "snow roads" out here... :-D
So, will have to wait for your RR results! :)

PS: dirty... :) will wash after intercooler is fitted... hell, where is my bumper? :wow: ... and a little plastic cover from the wheel?

paulmc
16-01-2005, 07:04 PM
Looks like you have been playing :-D

enigma
16-01-2005, 08:06 PM
Well, I only have "snow roads" out here... :-D
So, will have to wait for your RR results! :)

PS: dirty... :) will wash after intercooler is fitted... hell, where is my bumper? :wow: ... and a little plastic cover from the wheel?

Is the bumper easy enough to remove? I am thinking of an intercooler soon........

valmes
17-01-2005, 03:45 AM
30 minutes and it is off.
Some info on intercoolers...

Bolt on (with pipes for EC5W/EC5A):
Greddy V-SPL (low to medium boost; good with stock turbos) 600x186x76
Greddy R-SPL (medium to high boost; better option for upgraded turbos) 600x240x76
Greddy R-SPL V-SPL intercoolers (http://www.trust-power.com/02greddy/intercooler_kit.html)
Greddy EC5W intercooler kits (http://www.trust-power.com/mitsubishi/legnum/greddy/intercooler_kit.html)

ARC also makes intercoolers for EC5X cars, don't know about sizes though. I think it's 73 mm thick and should be L500-600mm and H180-240 mm, to fit without any mods... but I am not sure about the last numbers.
Prices for ARC intercoolers (http://www.passion-carnet.com/gt/arc/arc_incool.htm)

APEXi GT Spec also seems like it will fit nicely :)

...in order of appearance: Greddy R-SPL, ARC, APEXi GT Spec:

paulmc
17-01-2005, 08:19 AM
found this link, good if you like compressor maps. not good on dial up

http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/maps/all.html

will the evo 5 intercooler not fit? although not sure if that will be an upgrade to what is on

Paul

valmes
21-01-2005, 04:32 PM
Some pictures of new intercooler... :) On the road to 380HP :)

PS: With Blue and Red I've outlined the usable cooling area of standard VR-4 intercooler vs. Apexi GT-Spec replacement(610x270x78). It is also about 30% thicker and has less flow restriction... :) But it took one and half day to fit it! I think 600-620 mm wide - is a maximum without going into HEAVY mods!!!

paulmc
23-01-2005, 09:33 PM
That should be big enough, pity really you have to cover it up

caishanvr4
24-01-2005, 12:45 AM
Oh yes

That intercooler looks the BOMB :thumb1: .. I want one and i want one now !!! ERR b4 i get one (cash permitting) does any one know the price of the different makes - G ready/apexi as cant understand jap prices :$ . Is there a dealer over here who sells em ? :rolleyes5

Legnum Boy
24-01-2005, 01:31 AM
I take it you will need to cut away some of the front bumper to allow the IC to benefit from the increased surface area?

Spirit
24-01-2005, 01:40 AM
The Greddy looks to be over £500 + shipping etc. There is some fantastic info on this thread guys :-b !

caishanvr4
24-01-2005, 02:06 AM
Thread...!!!???

which thread ? :rolleyes5

Legnum Boy
24-01-2005, 02:14 AM
Thread...!!!???

which thread ? :rolleyes5

Maybe, the one we are typing on.... ;)

edit: Not meaning that I have contributed..... I just come along and post the questions not worth asking... :laugh:

AllBeItMine
24-01-2005, 03:15 AM
with the new intercooler - did you keep the front impact bar or ditch it? i thought about getting rid of mine making mounting a lot easier but i dont think i would get a warrant without it.

caishanvr4
24-01-2005, 03:37 AM
DOH :$ :$ :$ :$ :$ :$
its late.im off to bed

valmes
24-01-2005, 01:36 PM
with the new intercooler - did you keep the front impact bar or ditch it? i thought about getting rid of mine making mounting a lot easier but i dont think i would get a warrant without it.
Got rid of it (impact bar) ... :)



I take it you will need to cut away some of the front bumper to allow the IC to benefit from the increased surface area?.
...didn't cut any part of the original bumper yet. Will think about it before summer... right now we get -30C ... :-D



does any one know the price of the different makes - G ready/apexi as cant understand jap prices
Universal Currency Converter (http://www.xe.com/ucc/)
I got mine used for 450$ from auctions.yahoo.co.jp (http://auctions.yahoo.co.jp)

paulmc
26-01-2005, 06:46 PM
Not sure if it can make 1bar @ 2500rpm in the real world, looks good though

paulmc
26-01-2005, 07:27 PM
Turbo is pretty much maxed out but gives a good idea of what boost you can run. Don't suppose the turbo would last that long on the track. but then i never go on the track so should be fine for me.

Paul

paulmc
27-01-2005, 06:18 PM
Ok did a map of my old Audi S2 after chipped. I ran it like this for 6 months and 8k with no problems and some of the other guys have been on this set up for a couple years with no turbo probs. Some guys even go on track suffering no problems.

1st red dot, and so on

2500rpm@1.4bar
3000rpm@1.4
4000rpm@1.4
5000rpm@1.4
5500rpm@1.3
6000rpm@1.2
7000rpm@0.9

this is how they were set up, and how I ran mine.

So comparing the 2 graphs it looks like our turbos SHOULD be able to handle the above boost, as they are running in the same sort of compressor limits.

Paul

valmes
28-01-2005, 04:04 AM
Sorry... but was it single or twin turbo (Audi S2) ?

paulmc
28-01-2005, 07:57 AM
single trubo kkk24, 5cylinder 2.2

mhf
25-02-2005, 02:16 PM
Hi Bigdaveakers

It seems you have a good angle on the 6A13TT engine. I have also been playing around with this engine for some time now. I am about to take one my engines apart and go the whole hog on it i.e. pistons, port/polish, valves etc. I am told we could bring the capacity to around 3.1 from the 2.5. of course I already have the E-manage/E-01, turbos, upgraded brakes, intercooler, oilcooler, etc.

I am interested to hear what your advise is on doing the build. I will certainly discuss with my builder/mechanic.

thanks

MHF
marlon@seebeckcontrols.com

MunkyWrench
26-04-2006, 02:50 AM
hehe, i cracked my bumper doing gravel skids down by the waimak river. oops! Seems the intercooler took a little push too, seems the bottom of it has moved back and its looking a little wave shaped along the bottom edge.

**** it ! Buy a new one !

forty one automotive sell the arc i/c for $2800nz !!! Anyone wanna explain to me why i shouldnt buy a 600x300x76 i/c from I.T.L. as i have seen on trademe for $280 (no typos in these prices $2800 vs. $280) shipped? They seem to have respectable figures.

The ARC does have piping included, but .. 10x the price??

I was also thinking maybe 600x280x76 would be better suited to my "driving style". ie. not really babying it around at all...

Cheap and good i/c ? or not ?

I'll get all the intake piping done with the money i save.

Kenneth
26-04-2006, 02:56 AM
hehe, i cracked my bumper doing gravel skids down by the waimak river. oops! Seems the intercooler took a little push too, seems the bottom of it has moved back and its looking a little wave shaped along the bottom edge.

**** it ! Buy a new one !

forty one automotive sell the arc i/c for $2800nz !!! Anyone wanna explain to me why i shouldnt buy a 600x300x76 i/c from I.T.L. as i have seen on trademe for $280 (no typos in these prices $2800 vs. $280) shipped? They seem to have respectable figures.

The ARC does have piping included, but .. 10x the price??

I was also thinking maybe 600x280x76 would be better suited to my "driving style". ie. not really babying it around at all...

Cheap and good i/c ? or not ?

I'll get all the intake piping done with the money i save.

It could be a tube & fin rather than bar and plate for that price. Apparnetly recent tube and fin is better than bar and plate... most probably much lighter too.

If that doesnt worry you, no reason why not to get the $280 IC. Thats what I have on my car, and have no issues with it. even after hard driving, its cold on the outlet side.

If I had the choice again, I would go for 600x280. that will give you more ground clearance.

MunkyWrench
26-04-2006, 03:23 AM
sweet. decision made, money lacking.
Just popped out and paid my rego. Also need one of the mags repaired and repainted.

I have seen a website selling an Apexi Power FC for the legnum. I believe they can be adapted, whether that means someone has made a map for the legnum or actually made electrical mods to the power fc i don't know.

I do know that it certainly is not comparable to putting a nissan ecu in a mitsubishi as someone said earlier in the post. The problem I would have thought is the engine layout, 4cyl, 6cyl, ignition system.

Has anyone used a Haltech replacement ecu? Their features only fully supprt 4cyl sequential injection(E6x). For 6 and 8 cyl applications they have semi-sequential injection. Of course the top model (E11v2)has a lot more features and support.

I'm new to ecu's, but am plenty savvy with electronics.
my flatmate is currently tuning his hondata ecu. And so my interest is stirred. Somehow I don't think this will help the fuel economy of my vr4 tho.

bernmc
26-04-2006, 08:32 AM
Can you post the website with the Power FC for the Leggie?