E85 fuel mods

[lateshow]

Hi, it has been dead silent here but some news. We're actually nearly ready with a flexifuel ecu -mod for vr4. Has ANYONE here driven with E85 fuel, just generally interested how the 6a13tt behaves with that kind of fuel...

But back to the mod itself: It is based on ethanol sensor (GM) and a converter that converts the Hz to voltage which is then fed the ecu via PIN 75... we have already tested the new rom with a voltage generator and everything worked fine. It will generally interpolate the following stuff: injector size, AFR map, ignition map, boost maps, and starup primer. Interpolation will be made so that car can be driven in closed loop and it will be spot on. Ignition for ethanol can be tuned something like +2 to +4 and this will be interpolated as well.

Any comments or interest in this?

[veegeeta]

Steve from transformance engineering aust runs e85 no probs says car runs cooler and has figers somewhere in the 220kwt at wheels.

[SEAN-NZ]

doesnt create an issue with pushing the injectors hard? as i thought that the car would go through a fair bit more fuel on E85?

[Ryan]

Yes.
Kenneth has 1000cc injectors which I believe he fitted for this purpose. Whether or not he's advanced his E85 research remains to be seen.


doesnt create an issue with pushing the injectors hard? as i thought that the car would go through a fair bit more fuel on E85?

[SEAN-NZ]

ahh, could it be done on stock injectors? or even full stock fuel system?

[Anderz]

The stock injectors would probably not be enough, but as Lauri said we have not tested yet
It could be a good idea to upgrade the fuelpump, and you need to modify the fuel return hose to connect the inline sensor

[CANDEE]

Steve at TME is running 550cc injectors for the E85 set up.

[lateshow]

Steve from transformance engineering aust runs e85 no probs says car runs cooler and has figers somewhere in the 220kwt at wheels.

Which turbos does Steve have?

[CANDEE]

Just std ones Lauri, I think it was done as an exercise to see what happens on E85.

[lateshow]

Guess what guys! Yesterday I installed the GM sensor and converter and now I have the world's first vr4 as a REAL flexifuel!

[Davezj]

reda this thread and thought this might be of interest, but you have probably done this already, kenneth pointed me to this thread from his 2.0 rom thread.

this is for you guys that want to use kenneth's map switching for running ethanol based fuel and petrol based fuel without having to empty the tank before you fill up with the other fuel.
appartently it is done with an external sensor that monitors the percentage of ethanol to pertol and this is feed into the ecu which interpolates between the petrol and ethanol fuel and ignition maps
to give you the correct configuration depending on what mix of fuel you have in the tank.
well that is how i read it.

this is from the evolutionM.net web site and it seems to be quite a good write up, i thought the bones of it could be used and ported accross and used rather than building from scratch.
http://forums.evolutionm.net/ecuflas...n-evo-ecu.html

hope this helps someone.

[lathiat]

Keen to see this. I guess we need to replace a bunch of seals and such for this?

[Anderz]

Af far as I know Lauri has only changed the return line from the regulator to the pipe, as the ethanol sensor is connected there
It is clear that the stock injectors wont be enough with upped boost and E85

This rom does not use mapswitching, it uses two maps for injector size, AFR, ignition, boost, and starup primer
Ecu then interpolates between the maps based on the 0-5V signal fed to rear O2 port

Going to install this when I get my car finished :)

[Davezj]

you probably know this already but i thought i would put this up for reference

Lambda E85 AFR Gas AFR
0.500 4.880 7.350
0.510 4.978 7.497
0.520 5.075 7.644
0.530 5.173 7.791
0.540 5.271 7.938
0.550 5.368 8.085
0.560 5.466 8.232
0.570 5.563 8.379
0.580 5.661 8.526
0.590 5.759 8.673
0.600 5.856 8.820
0.610 5.954 8.967
0.620 6.051 9.114
0.630 6.149 9.261
0.640 6.247 9.408
0.650 6.344 9.555
0.660 6.442 9.702
0.670 6.539 9.849
0.680 6.637 9.996
0.690 6.735 10.143
0.700 6.832 10.290
0.710 6.930 10.437
0.720 7.027 10.584
0.730 7.125 10.731
0.740 7.223 10.878
0.750 7.320 11.025
0.760 7.418 11.172
0.770 7.515 11.319
0.780 7.613 11.466
0.790 7.711 11.613
0.800 7.808 11.760
0.810 7.906 11.907
0.820 8.003 12.054
0.830 8.101 12.201
0.840 8.199 12.348
0.850 8.296 12.495
0.860 8.394 12.642
0.870 8.491 12.789
0.880 8.589 12.936
0.890 8.687 13.083
0.900 8.784 13.230
0.910 8.882 13.377
0.920 8.979 13.524
0.930 9.077 13.671
0.940 9.175 13.818
0.950 9.272 13.965
0.960 9.370 14.112
0.970 9.467 14.259
0.980 9.565 14.406
0.990 9.663 14.553
1.000 9.760 14.700
1.010 9.858 14.847
1.020 9.955 14.994
1.030 10.053 15.141
1.040 10.151 15.288
1.050 10.248 15.435
1.060 10.346 15.582
1.070 10.443 15.729
1.080 10.541 15.876
1.090 10.639 16.023
1.100 10.736 16.170
1.110 10.834 16.317
1.120 10.931 16.464
1.130 11.029 16.611
1.140 11.127 16.758
1.150 11.224 16.905
1.160 11.322 17.052
1.170 11.419 17.199
1.180 11.517 17.346
1.190 11.615 17.493
1.200 11.712 17.640
1.210 11.810 17.787
1.220 11.907 17.934
1.230 12.005 18.081
1.240 12.103 18.228
1.250 12.200 18.375
1.260 12.298 18.522
1.270 12.395 18.669
1.280 12.493 18.816
1.290 12.591 18.963
1.300 12.688 19.110
1.310 12.786 19.257
1.320 12.883 19.404
1.330 12.981 19.551
1.340 13.079 19.698
1.350 13.176 19.845
1.360 13.274 19.992
1.370 13.371 20.139
1.380 13.469 20.286
1.390 13.567 20.433
1.400 13.664 20.580
1.410 13.762 20.727
1.420 13.859 20.874
1.430 13.957 21.021
1.440 14.055 21.168
1.450 14.152 21.315
1.460 14.250 21.462
1.470 14.347 21.609
1.480 14.445 21.756
1.490 14.543 21.903
1.500 14.640 22.050

[lateshow]

Done about 5000km with mostly RE85 (due to bad locations of the stations selling this stuff and me driving mostly durign rush hours I sometimes have to use gasoline)

Changed the pump to walbro couple of weeks ago. The old one seemed good and so did the lines.

Fuel consumption is roughly 30 % more than with gasoline.

The right AFR for full boost should be about 12.2. I''m still running a bit rich.

About ignition: I think that I should propably try to use Mine's ignition which is quite rough. But one cannot tune with knock now so maybe a dyno session later when i have the manual gearbox. Tuning the auto in dyno is no use. In great speeds it slips quite a bit when accelarating. I think that after 3500 rpm it will hold.

I have the original catalytic converter in it's place now and it seems to restrict quite a bit. This is due to the bigger amount of exhaust gasses (E85) when comparing to gasoline.

Is anyone else interested about this mod. I could post the rom here and some instructions. Who'd like to go flexifuel?

[AKKO]

E85 fuel isn't readily available at the pump here but have most of the prerequisites done should that ever change.

[Davezj]

Af far as I know Lauri has only changed the return line from the regulator to the pipe, as the ethanol sensor is connected there
It is clear that the stock injectors wont be enough with upped boost and E85

This rom does not use mapswitching, it uses two maps for injector size, AFR, ignition, boost, and starup primer
Ecu then interpolates between the maps based on the 0-5V signal fed to rear O2 port

Going to install this when I get my car finished :)

I was refering to Kenneth's 2.0 rom that he created. this has 8 way map switching that you can set up to do whatever you want.
You just have to understand the the map switching criteria to ensure you are on the correct map at the correct time. Or manually force the map switching with external switch tied into the ecu.
The stock ecu can't do it as it operates as you say with the hi and low maps and interpolates between them.

[Davezj]

Done about 5000km with mostly RE85 (due to bad locations of the stations selling this stuff and me driving mostly durign rush hours I sometimes have to use gasoline)

Changed the pump to walbro couple of weeks ago. The old one seemed good and so did the lines.

Fuel consumption is roughly 30 % more than with gasoline.

The right AFR for full boost should be about 12.2. I''m still running a bit rich.

About ignition: I think that I should propably try to use Mine's ignition which is quite rough. But one cannot tune with knock now so maybe a dyno session later when i have the manual gearbox. Tuning the auto in dyno is no use. In great speeds it slips quite a bit when accelarating. I think that after 3500 rpm it will hold.

I have the original catalytic converter in it's place now and it seems to restrict quite a bit. This is due to the bigger amount of exhaust gasses (E85) when comparing to gasoline.

Is anyone else interested about this mod. I could post the rom here and some instructions. Who'd like to go flexifuel?

Rom and instruction would be much welcome, from an interest point of view as we don't have e85 fuel in the uk yet. I could not use it.
But to see how you have implemented it and set the ecu rom up would be very interesting.

[Anderz]

Flex fuel could probably be implemented with KS 2.0 aswell
However this rom is a custom rom patch called FreeFuel
As i said it uses one set of maps and parameters for gasoline and another set for ethanol
The ecu interpolates between the maps based on measured ethanol content, via a sensor connected to the rear O2 port


I was refering to Kenneth's 2.0 rom that he created. this has 8 way map switching that you can set up to do whatever you want.
You just have to understand the the map switching criteria to ensure you are on the correct map at the correct time. Or manually force the map switching with external switch tied into the ecu.
The stock ecu can't do it as it operates as you say with the hi and low maps and interpolates between them.

[lateshow]

I will ask the creator of this patch if I can release it here. I think that won't be an issue. And I said we have about 100 interpolation points (due to voltage input) so it's a bit more than eight ;) This is based on Kenneth's 1.3 rom so that we can have the big fuel and ignition maps. And laucnh too and all the other nice functions. Then only thing missing is SD.... if we had that this would be called the "Godlike-mod".

To demonstrate, my ethanol scaling for 85% is 240 and my fuel scaling for 5% is 355 at the moment. -> When i have full ethanol i get 4 volts from the system which is then fed to ecu -> ecu sets scaling to 240. When I tank up some gasoline and get lets see 50% mix so that i have 50 % alcohol I then get another value from between 240 and 355, quite close to 300 I would suspect. Then I have to fuel maps. Ethanol one is set to 12.2 at high loads and gasoline one to 11.5. For instance. It interpolates which map it uses. And the same for ignition. And boost. And starting primer. Easy and godlike. This whole idea was written by some chaps here in Finland.

[Davezj]

Flex fuel could probably be implemented with KS 2.0 aswell
However this rom is a custom rom patch called FreeFuel
As i said it uses one set of maps and parameters for gasoline and another set for ethanol
The ecu interpolates between the maps based on measured ethanol content, via a sensor connected to the rear O2 port

i see, i had assumed he was using kenneth's 2.0 rom as has been mentioned about useing an e85 map on there.
thanks for putting me straight on that one.

[Davezj]

I will ask the creator of this patch if I can release it here. I think that won't be an issue. And I said we have about 100 interpolation points (due to voltage input) so it's a bit more than eight ;) This is based on Kenneth's 1.3 rom so that we can have the big fuel and ignition maps. And laucnh too and all the other nice functions. Then only thing missing is SD.... if we had that this would be called the "Godlike-mod".

To demonstrate, my ethanol scaling for 85% is 240 and my fuel scaling for 5% is 355 at the moment. -> When i have full ethanol i get 4 volts from the system which is then fed to ecu -> ecu sets scaling to 240. When I tank up some gasoline and get lets see 50% mix so that i have 50 % alcohol I then get another value from between 240 and 355, quite close to 300 I would suspect. Then I have to fuel maps. Ethanol one is set to 12.2 at high loads and gasoline one to 11.5. For instance. It interpolates which map it uses. And the same for ignition. And boost. And starting primer. Easy and godlike. This whole idea was written by some chaps here in Finland.

i am using kenneths 1.03 rom at present, and yes it is nice to have the big fuel and ignition maps.
as i understand it on the standard rom the hi and low fuel/ignition maps are iterpolated between based on the octane value. say low 95 and hi 99 octane.
so has the rom been steup to change the interpolation trigger to the ethanol/petrol sensor and the low maps been setup for E85 so it interpolates between e85 and petrol.
which is effectively still 2 maps.
or is it a lot more complicated than that. i am just interested, as i am sure at some point E85 will come to europe and the UK at some point.

[lateshow]

Before it interpolates between hi and low maps it does and extra interpolation where it interpolates between hi 85 and hi gasoline map in order to decide which HI value it uses. So there is actually 3 fuel maps (and ignition). But the biggest point was to make the interpolation for injector scaling. The funtions are the same as original interpolation functions...

[Davezj]

That is very clever.

I like that.

[lateshow]

Ok some quick results. One legnum had some time on the dyno but it was tuned mainly on the road. Basic mods + ethanol. (Ignition was roughly +2 from standard).

The car gave us 354/580. The torque was even higher than expected. The owner of the car (not me) said that there is no boost control so the lil ones gave us all they could.
Dyno sheet:
http://lateshow.1g.fi/kuvat/vr4/freefuel/vr4dyno.jpg

Boost & AFR:
http://lateshow.1g.fi/kuvat/vr4/freefuel/vr4boost.jpg

[Davezj]

that is a great result, on stock tubs.
do you think if i had a similar car setup, i should be able to achieve a similar result on petrol?

i presume the car this was achieved on had roughly the following mods.
bigger intercooler
upgrade fuel pump
adj FPR
high boost
hard pipes
fuel cut removed
larger bore exhaust
decat
ECU flashable with someone that knows what they are doing, (not necessarily me , LOL)

[Anderz]

That is impressive for stock turbos, now imagine with bigger turbos that could hold 600 Nm higher :D

You cant get that much with petrol due to knock, a VR-4 on petrol is already knocking with stock timing and this has +2
Think same car got 320/490 before E85, Lauri probably remembers better

[Davezj]

thanks for the reply,
in tha case i see the need for water or water methanol injection, to cool he air change.

[lateshow]

Yes maybe with meth injection that kinda numbers would be possible.... Highest numbers on petrol in Finland were about 320-330hp.

I can't remember if this car had an upraged fuel pump or not. But the mods were big ic, fujitsubo exhaust, decat, big downpipes and that's about it. No hardpipes on FPR. Another legnum (auto) had hardpipes and it produced only 330 hp on ethanol, im suspecting it has some probmes (biggest it the automatic gearbox)

[Davezj]

thanks for the info, much appreciated.

[BCX]

hmmm... double up of work... http://ozvr4.com/forums/showthread.php?12628-BCXMOD-V2-0&p=301100&viewfull=1#post301100

[lateshow]

Interesting....the only thing im after anymore is the sd conversion. One person in Finland has done this to H8 (evo 5 rom) but i dont have the source and im not a programmer myself. But i can understand that people here arent so interested in ethanol since you cant get it. Shame :(

[BCX]

I've got code to do this, just been putting it off until I work out how to deal with the limited adc inputs.

Once my fuelflex code is tested, implementing speed density is easy.

Thinking could reuse baro input, but also toying with idea of multiplexing input. I'm getting some pcbs fabricated, so could tack onto that as i was going to get one for the frequency converter to use gm sensor like the evo guys.

[Adam.Findlay]

Sorry if I have missed a post as I just had a quick read over but how well does the interpolation work? do you get pretty close to ideal ratios?
Just I know most stock cars that have flex fuel have a fuel map for every 5-10% change in fuel composition so they are only interpolating between similar values. eg if your flex fuel sensor is reporting 82% eth the ecu would interpolate between the E80 map and the E85 map.

I am planning on doing flex fuel with the GM type sensor on my Link G4 ecu but was told by Link that Interpolating between only 2 maps (100% petrol and 100% Eth) will never be perfect. mainly just there to be a buffer so you dont have to drain your tank every time you want to swap between E85 and normal fuel.

[BCX]

Sorry if I have missed a post as I just had a quick read over but how well does the interpolation work? do you get pretty close to ideal ratios?
Just I know most stock cars that have flex fuel have a fuel map for every 5-10% change in fuel composition so they are only interpolating between similar values. eg if your flex fuel sensor is reporting 82% eth the ecu would interpolate between the E80 map and the E85 map.

I am planning on doing flex fuel with the GM type sensor on my Link G4 ecu but was told by Link that Interpolating between only 2 maps (100% petrol and 100% Eth) will never be perfect. mainly just there to be a buffer so you dont have to drain your tank every time you want to swap between E85 and normal fuel.

The interpolation is between two maps.

However, the 'interpolation factor' can be varied for each parameter (fuel, ignition, WG duty %, target load, etc) so it's it doesn't have to be linear and can be different per parameter.

There is a scaling table for each one with ~100 points. 0v to 5v with .05v stepping. The output of this scaling is the 'interpolation factor' used to modify the final values.

[Adam.Findlay]

so your saying the interpolation between any given load cell on both 100% eth and 100% petrol maps is not only based on the 0-5V GM sensor output eth percentage output. its based on other paramaters also, to compensate for the non linear way the octane rating of different eth% mixtures change.

Seems like it would be a right bastard to setup with more paramaters than just eth%. hence why I asked how well the interpolation works from somone who has actually tested it.
ie do your 100% petrol tune and then the 100% meth tune and then dilute the meth with petrol to E50 and see how close to stoich the fuel gets and measure knock.

The way the link does it is just by adding a 4th dimention (Axis) to the 3D fuel and ign maps and scales between them just like a scale on a 3D map would dependant on the input of the sensor

[BCX]

Yes, and no. Depends how granular you want to get.

You can leave the scaling maps with default values, it's linear until they are changed. This just give flexibility in case you have a reason to mod them (i.e. non linear curve)

I've just reused the interpolation routine is the one that Mitsubishi use between high and lo maps. The routine is pretty reasonable and works well, it's what you input as the 'interpolation factor' that changes the final value.

[Adam.Findlay]

got ya!
well as good as my relatively computer illiterate brain can understand.

[lateshow]

The main thing is to interpolate injector scaling. :)


BCX: Baro is used here in Finland for evo 5 mod but that source is not published. Seems to work.

There is one thing however. The GM sensor gives Hz signal... could we use the Hz input for MAF. Now we need a separate converter that converts 50-150 Hz -> roughly 1,5V-4,5V.

[foxdie]

Hi folks,

Realise I'm coming into this convo late, I'm happy to help / discuss running this with Kens KS2.0 ROM with switchable profiles, before I continue though I feel I need to point out a serious issue in using E85 as a fuel source as it's currently been discussed in my "home-away-from-home" in Holden land here (http://www.hsv.org.uk/topic.asp?t=1340898&f=69&h=27), the key point is that E85 clogs filters in an average of 10 run-hours, Google is awash (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=e85+clogged+filter) with reports of filters becoming unusable, Aeromotive themselves did a report here (http://aeromotiveinc.com/tech-help/frequently-asked-questions/faq-340-stealth-fuel-pumps/) (see question 9).

So two recommendations;

1. If you plan on using E85, use a separate fuel tank (you should be able to get one to fit in the spare tyre well) with a separate fuel delivery system (fuel pump etc), you may need to use a swirl pot to facilitate switching between the two whilst the car is running

2. Install an in-line fuel filter (with shut off valves either side) somewhere that is easily accessible as you'll be replacing it often ;)

[lateshow]

havent had any problems with clogged filters. Actually no one in Finland has had any sort of problems...... Seperate fuel systems my arse I say. :) People in USA have been using E85 for years....

What one should do is use gasoline once in a while but once you have tried ethanol with vr4... it feels stupid to use gasoline (our E85 is so much cheaper that running on ethanol costs 20% less and you get soooo much better throttle response & power). Maybe this all seems like hard to believe but i'm not just some foreign idiot trying to tell you this....

[Adam.Findlay]

Hi folks,

Realise I'm coming into this convo late, I'm happy to help / discuss running this with Kens KS2.0 ROM with switchable profiles, before I continue though I feel I need to point out a serious issue in using E85 as a fuel source as it's currently been discussed in my "home-away-from-home" in Holden land here (http://www.hsv.org.uk/topic.asp?t=1340898&f=69&h=27), the key point is that E85 clogs filters in an average of 10 run-hours, Google is awash (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=e85+clogged+filter) with reports of filters becoming unusable, Aeromotive themselves did a report here (http://aeromotiveinc.com/tech-help/frequently-asked-questions/faq-340-stealth-fuel-pumps/) (see question 9).

So two recommendations;

1. If you plan on using E85, use a separate fuel tank (you should be able to get one to fit in the spare tyre well) with a separate fuel delivery system (fuel pump etc), you may need to use a swirl pot to facilitate switching between the two whilst the car is running

2. Install an in-line fuel filter (with shut off valves either side) somewhere that is easily accessible as you'll be replacing it often ;)

Never heard of eth clogging fuel filters. only heard of it degrading or breaking down components of fuel systems that are not ethanol capable (such as fuel pump o-rings, rubber lines etc) this causes the broken down substances to clog fuel pumps, filters, lines or injectors or even cause leaks.. but thats the owners dumb fault for not upgrading the fuel system to cope with eth based fuels before running them.

Plus the whole point of a flex fuel sensor is so you do not have to have an ethanol fuel cell separate from the main tank. with seperate fuel systems you can just run switched maps. one tune for each fuel cell.

[BCX]

We've got a bunch of VR4s here in Australia to run 100% off e85... TME_Steve (shtiv on here) has been running e85 for ages, no problems.

[BCX]

There is one thing however. The GM sensor gives Hz signal... could we use the Hz input for MAF. Now we need a separate converter that converts 50-150 Hz -> roughly 1,5V-4,5V.


Probably could... might take a bit of code manipulation... but definitely possible. but for now, better of using an LM2917 or similar chip to perform the voltage mod.

[ast]

So two recommendations;

1. If you plan on using E85, use a separate fuel tank (you should be able to get one to fit in the spare tyre well) with a separate fuel delivery system (fuel pump etc), you may need to use a swirl pot to facilitate switching between the two whilst the car is running

2. Install an in-line fuel filter (with shut off valves either side) somewhere that is easily accessible as you'll be replacing it often ;)

Hi,

Let me first introduce myself.

I have done this FreeFuel patch for Evo ecu http://forums.evolutionm.net/ecuflash/629073-freefuel-ecu-patch-flex-fuel-implementation-evo-ecu.html

I have ported it also to H8/500 for VR4 ECU and it's the patch that Lateshow and others in Finland are running with great success.

I have personally driven over year and half with E85 and Gasoline in different mixtures in my Evo using the patch. Mostly I have been driving with E85 when it has been available. I have had a single problem with Aeromotive 340 pump failing very quickly. Since that I have used normal Walbro 255 modded (pressure-release valve punched in) with zero issues. I have changed most of the fuel hoses to E85 specified one, but that's it. I have changed fuel filter once just to make sure. Now I have year and half with the current filter with zero issues.

There's loads of crap and horror stories about E85 in the internet but personally I have never seen any major problems with any car. I think my failed fuel pump is the biggest problem any person I know has had.

We have had zero issues related to the patch or GM sensor so far either in Evo or VR4.

I have attached both the source and the patch to this message. I'm sorry I don't have english version of the VR4 instructions available, but you can mostly follow the instructions in the EvolutionM Evo thread linked above.

Available FreeFuel H8 versions:
2003E013 Galant/Legnum VR4 KS Mods v1.03 ROM, patch FreeFuel-2003E013_V1.0.jdf
- ECUs with plastic case - tested with 7203FA processor, should work also with 7202F processor
- KS Mods V1.03 ROM: http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?59075-Kenneth-s-ECU-Mods-V1-03
- Galant/Legnum VR4 4-plug ECU: pin 75 input for analog voltage signal converted from GM sensor Hz output

[lateshow]

Probably could... might take a bit of code manipulation... but definitely possible. but for now, better of using an LM2917 or similar chip to perform the voltage mod.


That would give us one free analog input.... just an idea.

[foxdie]

Fair enough guys, just thought I'd give you all a heads-up just in case someone runs into this blind and then ends up with a blown motor when it leans out at the worst possible moment ;)

[swinks]

Fair enough guys, just thought I'd give you all a heads-up just in case someone runs into this blind and then ends up with a blown motor when it leans out at the worst possible moment ;)
Haven't you just messed up with methanol?
Methanol is quite famous for clogging filters ;)

[lateshow]

Actually using ethanol could be compared to methanol injection, like swinks got quite good max power with methanol, the secret is that propably he could use enought advance.

[swinks]

Actually using ethanol could be compared to methanol injection, like swinks got quite good max power with methanol, the secret is that propably he could use enought advance.
Not sure Lauri...
I used methanol to cool down charge which let me to advance timing.
E85 is fuel itself with high octan volume, hence timing can be advanced.
Results are similar, but "technology" is different.
Much prefer E85 tho. ;)

[lateshow]

Like I said in both cases timing can be advanced -> more power and yes E85 is the best. Here we have RE85 which if made out of recycled stuff. It should be quite clean.

[exevoowner]

Really like the idea of this and thinking of looking deeper into it as a better source of fuel

[MYKEY]

The difficult part could be finding somewhere that sells it ?

[fassi1]

Question to all you guys running E85. How much do you advance timing (what correction to a stock high octane fuel)
and what egt do you get with it at WOT?

[Anderz]

Question to all you guys running E85. How much do you advance timing (what correction to a stock high octane fuel)
and what egt do you get with it at WOT?

We have not yet done test on a dyno with different advance. E85 is harder to tune because it is not knock restricted, you could advance to much without knock. Ideal would be to do the tuning on a dyno
We are using about +2 to the standard high octane map (in the high load area). Have not measured EGT. Could be higher as it can run leaner than on petrol, I am running about 12.0-12.5 AFR at full boost

[fassi1]

We have not yet done test on a dyno with different advance. E85 is harder to tune because it is not knock restricted, you could advance to much without knock. Ideal would be to do the tuning on a dyno
We are using about +2 to the standard high octane map (in the high load area). Have not measured EGT. Could be higher as it can run leaner than on petrol, I am running about 12.0-12.5 AFR at full boost
That sounds really good, I bet it pushes forward nicely. What boost are you running Anders?
Sounds like +2 deg is very safe advance what I've experianced too.
EGT would be very handy cause potentialy there could be more power to achieve playing with timing advance.
I want to try bit more aggresive timing but before I do that I want to get EGT fitted before turbo to see what temps I'm getting with +2deg.
At the moment 640-660degC after turbo so my guess before turbo it would be max 860degC which would mean still more to extract from it.

[Anderz]

Yeah, it is quite a difference compared to stock :)
I am running 1,2 Bar boost. Others here have disconnected the waste-gates altogether, and the engine seems to cope with that as well (1,5+ bar in the lower rev range)

Agree that there could be more power to achieve with timing, AFR also play an important role in EGT
What fuel or way to prevent knock are you using? +2 degrees with normal petrol is not possible without knock

[lateshow]

There was however one engine that didnt cope with that. Or actually it had a boost controller but it was kinda maxxed out i think.

I wouldnt do long WOT runs with 1.5 bar boost.

[fassi1]

Yeah, it is quite a difference compared to stock :)
I am running 1,2 Bar boost. Others here have disconnected the waste-gates altogether, and the engine seems to cope with that as well (1,5+ bar in the lower rev range)

Agree that there could be more power to achieve with timing, AFR also play an important role in EGT
What fuel or way to prevent knock are you using? +2 degrees with normal petrol is not possible without knock

I'm running on LPG with 1.2-1.1bar of boost.
+3deg up to 0.6 and +2deg above without knockig.
I wouldn't advance it if I was getting knocking.

[Davezj]

i have been running 1.5bar for the last year or so without any ill effect. no knock either on petrol, but that is with stock timing map.

[fassi1]

i have been running 1.5bar for the last year or so without any ill effect. no knock either on petrol, but that is with stock timing map.
The only question is Dave at what rpm did you achieve 1.5bar and how long did it last and other thing what boost did you get at max power band lets say 5000rpm+ when running 1.5bar?

[Anderz]

I'm running on LPG with 1.2-1.1bar of boost.
+3deg up to 0.6 and +2deg above without knockig.
I wouldn't advance it if I was getting knocking.

Oh so you are running LPG, that explains it :)
LPG have higher octane rating than petrol, don't know exactly what how high but have read somewhere that it should be the same as E85
E85 is around 110 octane

LPG is not common over here, but it seems like a good way to make power when you don't have E85

Boost can't be upped in the higher rev range, the turbos run out of flow
Few cars with stock turbos can hold over 1 bar to the redline

[fassi1]

LPG is about 105-110 and it will probably depend on supplier :) and it's 70p fo a liter, some of my friends pay 65p a liter so can't complain.
I personally can't see the point going higher than +0.2bar from what you get at 5500-6000rpm but that's my point of view.
I kept looking for some info (data) on forum if somebody has ever tested egt before turbo with any kind of timing advance and AFR tunning
and haven't come across anything. People seems to know that +2 is safe and do it just cause others did, but no feedback with logged data, AFR and egt.

[Davezj]

The only question is Dave at what rpm did you achieve 1.5bar and how long did it last and other thing what boost did you get at max power band lets say 5000rpm+ when running 1.5bar?

Having the high boost on 3rd gear power runs does not make that much difference over and above 1.2 bar, but in 4th and especially 5th it makes a massive difference. 70-100 is much quicker and make overtaking on the motorway very easy. as the rev range it will hold 1.5bar is 3500 to 4500.

[fassi1]

Having the high boost on 3rd gear power runs does not make that much difference over and above 1.2 bar, but in 4th and especially 5th it makes a massive difference. 70-100 is much quicker and make overtaking on the motorway very easy. as the rev range it will hold 1.5bar is 3500 to 4500.
I disagree with you Dave, that's false power but it is not right place to talk about it.

[Davezj]

i understand what you are saying and you are right about it being false boost as it does not maintain it up to high rpm but when in 5th at 2500 - 3500 rpm and put your foot down with 1.5 bar boost because the engine can not consome the air fast enough you have 1.5 bar of pressure and that makes a lot of difference.
and yes this is not the place to discuss it, once i have done some more testing i will start a thread on it.

[Downundersir]

Not sure if people realise. Holden sell a range of Cars that are e85 capable. No where does it say you have to change the fuel filter after 10hrs use. They warranty the car for 100000klm /3yrs. It would seem an oversight if e85 was do bad. There is a lot of misinformation about the use of e85. It's a bit like leaded & unleaded. Yet we still have thundering old school v8' running on unleaded. If your worried take a look at the US Evo' on e85 , they were late to receiving the evo. They make some impressive claims.