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Legnum Boy
04-02-2005, 06:31 PM
Just got my car back from Ralliart today and I have noticed something worrying on the bill.

1 x Litre of Engine Coolant. :(

This is beginning to make me think that I am about to be staring down the wrong end of a bill for headgasket failure. :sad3:

Over the past thousand miles, I have witnessed the temperature gauge have many a funny moment, rising and falling at random. This combined with ever present start up condensation pouring from the exhaust. (Can take up to 10 mins to clear...quite embarrrasing in traffic)
I just knew my luck couldn't hold out much longer...(and I'm not going to jinx the fact that I still haven't received a NIP for the two week old speed camera flashes..... DOH!)

Pezza, I may require a few (dozen) evenings from your highly qualified friend shortly... ;)

On a lighter note, I enquired about outstanding recalls for my Leggy, and the guy mentioned something about 'lateral arms' which when checked were found to need doing on one side. Is this the same thing as the 'balljoint' thing?

They also checked for the suspected front turbo oil leak, but could find nothing, which is sort of good news. Apart from that, a rather non-eventful £275 - 9000 mile service. :rolleyes:

AllBeItMine
04-02-2005, 07:25 PM
hmmm... i have had my car for over 2 years now and i have never had the temperature gauge do anything but sit right in the middle of the dial. I have also NEVER touched the radiator fluid other than to flush and refil with new stuff.... which i have only done twice.

are you sure they didn't flush your system and charge you for 1litre of antifreeze?

Roadrunner
04-02-2005, 07:49 PM
Just got my car back from Ralliart today and I have noticed something worrying on the bill.

1 x Litre of Engine Coolant. :(

This is beginning to make me think that I am about to be staring down the wrong end of a bill for headgasket failure. :sad3:

Hmm, keep an eye on the water level over the next week or so. If it's disappearing, you might be right. Unfortunately, unless you can see water in the oil, there's no easy way of proving HGF without removing the heads - which means you need to replace the gaskets anyway ...

If you end up taking the heads off, consider doing the valve-stem oil seals and maybe even the lash adjusters at the same time.

Been there, done that :(

Kenneth
04-02-2005, 10:16 PM
The inconsistant temperatures are a good sign of head gasket failure. I have experianced it on another car, and also on a motorbike.

one way to check is this

Warm the car up, turn it off, carefully take the radiator cap off (you might just be able to take the overflow cap off) and then run the car.

you might need to play with the accelerator a bit, depending on how bad (or good) it is.
When the head gasket is buggered, water will be ejected out of the radiator. With my motorobike, it was bad enough to push coolant out of the overflow.

Good luck.

The Vee
04-02-2005, 10:29 PM
Woh,
please be careful - the system is pressurised and if the gasket is letting extra pressure into the cooling system, it'll be very exitable. Do you get an intermittent hiss from under the bonnet - almost like a quiet version of a dump valve? this can happen when the pressure cap releases the extra pressure if the gases are being blown into the coolant

paulmc
05-02-2005, 02:12 PM
Nip down to your local MOT station and get them to stick their exhaust probe in the expansion tank, if your head gasket is leaking hydrocarbons will enter the water system and end up in your expansion tank.

Or if it is leaking bad look for bubbles in the tank, the more revs the more bubbles. This is not quite so easy with a turbo as they usually only leak under boost to start with.

HTH

wirdy
05-02-2005, 02:25 PM
Nip down to your local MOT station and get them to stick their exhaust probe in the expansion tank, if your head gasket is leaking hydrocarbons will enter the water system and end up in your expansion tank.

Or if it is leaking bad look for bubbles in the tank, the more revs the more bubbles. This is not quite so easy with a turbo as they usually only leak under boost to start with.

HTH

Great tip! is this from experience?
Having thought about it, there's sound logic behind this as a check for head gasket failure.

Nick VR4
05-02-2005, 02:40 PM
You could also get them to do a pressure test on the rad
Most garages have them

paulmc
05-02-2005, 03:07 PM
Yeah used it on my cossie's worked twice, 3rd time i had a hole in the rad.

Pressure test will work also, but i found only if the gasket is well gone, much like the bubble test, they start to leak under boost then eventually leak all the time.

Legnum Boy
06-02-2005, 04:23 AM
Gunna assume the worst anyway.... easiest thing to do with these cars.

The hydrocarbon test sounds logical. Will look into that..

The thing is, on my last car that had HGF, the first indication was the heater not working, closely followed by the gunk in the oil.
Although, I initially thought the heater was taking longer to get hot, there was no mention of gunk in the oil.
The water was missing from the radiator, not the expansion tank. This could then mean I just have an external coolant leak. (but this should have been picked up during the service)
If the HG has failed from the coolant to the cylinder and is just burning up in the exhaust, would this be why no gunk was found in the oil? and why the coolant is just disappearing from the rad and not the expansion tank as well?

I am soooo confused, and gutted. I seem to bend over backwards for this car, only for it to just kick me in the gut again and again.

Someone please give me a worthwhile reason not to sell this infernal piece of $hit, and go back to a reliable manufacturer like Nissan or Honda...


.... and someone please fix the smilies...... ggggrrrrrrrr....XXXXXXXXX

Kenneth
06-02-2005, 05:20 AM
The water was missing from the radiator, not the expansion tank. This could then mean I just have an external coolant leak. (but this should have been picked up during the service)
If the HG has failed from the coolant to the cylinder and is just burning up in the exhaust, would this be why no gunk was found in the oil? and why the coolant is just disappearing from the rad and not the expansion tank as well?


The coolant being missing from the radiator not the expansion tank can happen because the air that blows by the gasket into the coolant creates air bubbles in the coolant. this forces the coolant into the expansion tank as there is nowhere else for it to go. the expansion tank will overflow eventually, hence the loss of coolant. when the radiator cools down, a certian amount of coolant in the expansion tank gets drawn back into the radiator. normally there wouldnt be air bubbles, so the radiator stays "full" but in the case of there being air bubbles, then radiator looks less than full.

Legnum Boy
06-02-2005, 06:34 AM
Am I right in thinking that a compression test on the cylinders will identify the location of the failure?
If so, I bet someone will say that its still going to be worth doing both heads anyway...

...and another thing, if I do go ahead with the work, I will be purchasing oversized metal gaskets to reduce compression and risk of future failures. (my guess for this failure would be overboosting)

Anyone know of a supplier for metal head gaskets for our engine?

Nick Mann
06-02-2005, 10:15 AM
Head gaskets can go in many ways. There are oil channels, water channels and cylinders running through it, so you can have failure between any of them and not necessarily all. You are right - it is possible that a water/cylinder failure has occurred but all the oil channel seals are still sound.

Personally, I think it is far more likely that you have a small coolant leak elsewhere - I would be checking everywhere for that first.

wirdy
07-02-2005, 12:45 AM
Personally, I think it is far more likely that you have a small coolant leak elsewhere - I would be checking everywhere for that first.

Don't panic just yet.......I'd go with Nicks advice & make absolutely sure there's no other possible reason for your coolant loss.
In any case - as my Dad always says with these types of fault "let it develop" - keep a close eye on your coolant level & temperatures and see how it goes. Make sure you've renewed that RAC/AA membership though, just to be safe, and carry a bottle of water in the car.

The cost of head gaskets is absolutely stupid - to be avoided if at all possible!

Legnum Boy
07-02-2005, 01:39 AM
Thanks for the advice chaps. I will just see what happens. I will be well armed with ready mixed coolant, but without the expansion tank showing signs of depletion how can I be sure that it needs more coolant before causing damage? Should I be able to see the coolant level inside of the rad cap or will it be too far down to see?

Also, I ran my old K series rover for ages and ages, just topping up with water, until you couldn't see the oil for gunk... but I'm hoping that if the gasket is blowing, its not going into the oil channels but just straight from coolant to cylinder.
Will there be any side affects to running a blown head gasket, provided I do not let the engine get too hot?

Kenneth
07-02-2005, 03:28 AM
My old mans scooby (non turbo) ran for nearly a year with intermittent problems such as you describe.

When the problem got really bad, some guy at a petrol station (obviously knew what he was talking about, though no one else did) told us straight out it was a head gasket.

Anyway, as noobs (I was maybe 16 at the time) we took it to a mechanic who changed the thermostat, then advised a radiator flush/clean.
Now, I supoose this made the cooling more efficient because the problem went away to a certian extent... there were just mild inconsistent temperature problems.

Lasted quite a while until it all went t*ts up again, at which point we took it to a real mechanic (the one my family still use to this day) who correctly diagnosed and fixed the problem. Was very impressed with the way he tied all the engine bay hoses and wires neatly and replaced any missing (but not so important) bolts/clips etc.

Anyway, mechanic was immensly impressed with the condition of the engine which had done over 200,000 km by then.

Ran my ZXR400 for months on a leaking head gasket. just kept topping up the water. I knew it was the head gasket, cause I had pulled the head apart and re-used the old gasket. Was too cheap to pay $100 for a new one. I did get a new one when I got a job offer and was to be making money. The temp used to fluctuate immensly. I had to ride fast to keep it air cooled as much as poss, and turn the engine off at the lights.

I installed the new gasket the weekend before starting my new job. had the head skimmed .25mm, got the valves cut with 3 angles and new valve stem seals. then on my way home the first day of work, I got T-Boned, which wrote the bike off. Was lucky their insurance paid out in the end, as I was on a 400cc bike with a restricted license. (250cc limit)

Back to the point... there was no problem with the ZXR engine... damn it ran well after having the head skimmed!

The End!

Moral: In my experiance, so long as you dont sieze it, or run it to hot it should be fine. just a pain in the arse.... so make sure you keep the water topped up and keep an eye on your oil.

My experiances are no guarentee of course... so do as you will.

PS: I by no means condone running your vehicle under these conditions, I merly offer this information as evidence that if nessacary you may still be able run your vehilce to move you around without royally screwing it in the cacker! I would advise caution and not running increased boost or driving it hard.

Roberto
07-02-2005, 03:41 AM
Just had car back from Mitsu with full service and investigation of coolant leak, came back as water pump seal failure.

So timing belt, water pump and A/C belt changed, plus service, bye bye €1200, hello much better car.

Get car checked for any leaks rather than going after the head.

Best of look anyway and keep the faith.

Legnum Boy
07-02-2005, 04:44 AM
Just had car back from Mitsu with full service and investigation of coolant leak, came back as water pump seal failure.

So timing belt, water pump and A/C belt changed, plus service, bye bye €1200, hello much better car.

Get car checked for any leaks rather than going after the head.

Best of look anyway and keep the faith.

Water Pump Seal.... now that sounds possible.... 15K early for the next timing belt change but I'd rather a £800 bill now than a £1500+ later.

The cars going back to Ralliart for this 'lateral arm recall' quite soon so I may give them some cash to investigate the mysterious coolant leak.

Many Thanks again guys, love you all, in a non-http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/images/smilies/ghey.gif way.

Nick Mann
07-02-2005, 09:58 PM
Heh! Its a gay thing......

The K series engine I have changed a head gasket on had gone between oil and water. Both sytems were gunking up from the other. The design of the head/block join meant that the oil/water problem was MUCH bigger than the any/cylinder problem. I guess most are the same, as many K series engines seem to have trouble with exactly that.

Anyway, a bit off-topic, so good luck with your ongoing enquiries!