wideband o2 sensor - which one can you recommend?

[crazydriver81]

This is a question to all persons, who are running a wideband O2 sensor and display. I do want to have a proper lambda control and the factory ECU will be kept. I have seen, that a lot of people are running an Innovate device. I had a look towards PLX Devices too and I personally like the idea of adding other sensor modules and having them displayed onto one gauge (DM-6) only.

Are there any pros/cons regarding PLX or Innovate devices? Any specific or odd things I need to consider and need to know before purchase of one of the devices?

Thanks for your input guys! /thankyou

[swinks]

After 4 years with Innovate following Ben's (@Eurospec) advice I changed one for AEM wideband.
I have noticed that Innovate is not accurate in measurements as I wanted to be, and Ben agreed with that, he mentioned that Innovate can be off even approx. 1-2 AFR which is way to much.
AEM stuff hasn't got narrowband emulation, only 0-5V datalogging which work nicely with stock ecu.
Unlike Innovate it's very accurate. And doesn't need re-calibration.

[exevoowner]

oh thought the innovate one were the dogs dangles ???

[peter thomson]

I have the Zeitronix wideband controller which does have narrow band simulation and can also display boost and egt with the extra inputs. Fitted since 2009 with no problems. Decided on this one after a review of other similar devices.

[TAR]

I have the Innovate MTX-L and I'm happy with it. If it were to turn out to be up to 2 AFR out, I would be sending it back as faulty.

From their website....
Q: What is the accuracy of the LM-1 and LC-1?
A: +/- 0.1 AFR


:happy:

[exevoowner]

this is what i thought as if they were so far out people would be knocking there door down demanding something back in return ????

[Davezj]

I was under the impression that the innovate MTX-L was a good wideband, it does say in the instructions it needs calibating every no and then, i think it is about 2 twice a year i seem to remember read something like that in the instuction.

we will be able to see how good it is when we do the rolling road day a area 52 i will be logging my dyno runs with evoscan which will include logs for my wideband and my boost pressure sensor. so i will be able to get an exact comparison of area 52 wideband and boost pressure sensor compared to mine.

should be interesting.

[swinks]

Are there any pros/cons regarding PLX or Innovate devices? Any specific or odd things I need to consider and need to know before purchase of one of the devices?

Thanks for your input guys! /thankyou
Back to your original question...
Yes, take PLX one. IMO, better than Innovate.

[crazydriver81]

Thanks for the info so far. Recalibrating the sensors? Is this only an issue for the Innovate product?

Does anyone have a PLX AFR-device installed and can add experiences?

[fassi1]

Using Innovate and very happy with it. Bad thing about AEM is that it only goes up to 10 so if you run lower AFR you will never know.
Controller itself can't be out in my opinion, the only oxygen sensor may be getting old and slow or just needs recalibration.
I have both AEM and MTX-L so may do quick test.

[adaxo]

MTX-L for me, have two of them, one fitted permanently in my car and one 'external' one used for lpg calibration on customers cars, both working flawlessly for few years now, easy to install/set/calibrate and with few extra options in software.

[Nick Mann]

I have a plx with wide band and boost displayed on a dm100. I'd buy it again. No calibration issues at all, good value and reliable. I have had mine for a long time now. The drawbacks are that you can't log the wide band easily and you can't offset the narrow band emulation. Neither of those things bother me though!
Good luck and have fun choosing!

[Gly]

another plx user, more than happy with mine, 3-4 years?

my innovate shat itself after 1 week in car, RMA was terrible wont deal with them again

[Davezj]

my MTX-L failed after i connected it up wrong, i connected the dimmer display to the variable dimm rather than the lights on signal which is bad for the MTX-L and it does say don't do it in the instruction. my gauge was about 13months old and i contacted innovate and with a RMA they replaced it straight for a new unit and did not charge me the $45 standard repair cost. they could not have given me better service.

Since then i have been really happy with it. i have recalibrated it a couple of times since installing it. the calibration prcess is very simple and takes 2 mins.

but that is just my experience with innovate RMA procedure. sorry to hear you had rough time carsten.

[Gly]

yeah took 2-3 months!
when i finally got the replacement i sold it on,

already bought the plx, which was much easier install.
also the innovate can be sensitive to earthing.

the plx is a much simpler unit but without the features of the innovate

[Nick Mann]

I have heard lots of complaints about innovate stuff. I have not heard of anyone complaining about plx or aem. I know several people who have swapped from innovate to plx and they are all happier.

[crazydriver81]

Thanks guys. Very helpful. Then it will be a PLX SM-AFR plus SM-Vac/Boost and a DM-6 gauge. :)

I've found a set with all mentioned for 260 EUR inc. shipping - which is a steal IMO!

[chris_dono]

my MTX-L failed after i connected it up wrong, i connected the dimmer display to the variable dimm rather than the lights on signal which is bad for the MTX-L and it does say don't do it in the instruction. my gauge was about 13months old and i contacted innovate and with a RMA they replaced it straight for a new unit and did not charge me the $45 standard repair cost. they could not have given me better service.

Since then i have been really happy with it. i have recalibrated it a couple of times since installing it. the calibration prcess is very simple and takes 2 mins.

but that is just my experience with innovate RMA procedure. sorry to hear you had rough time carsten.

Out of interest, what's the procedure for calibration?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[Davezj]

this is in the instruction with the MTX-L
you can do it 2 ways one with a PC one without.
i favour the without method because the rear of my gauge is easily accessable, you will see why.
this is the important bit so take note, to avaid having to remove the O2 sensor from the exhaust so it is in clean air, you can do the followin:-

Ensure the car has been left over night so the exhaust is full of air and not exhaust gas, you have to ensure this which ever method of calibration you do.
If you forget to calibrate first thing in the morning and you start the car even after 2 second, you CAN NOT calibrate the gauge, the exhaust will have exhaust gas in to and the calibration will be wrong.

Calibration method:-

1. diconnect Gauge from O2 sensor, either on the cable that come out of the back of the gauge or at the 02 sensor end of the same cable.
2. switch ignition to ON position "DO NOT START THE CAR" you will get and E9 error. (this deletes any calibration the gauge already has)
3. switch ingition OFF.
4. connect gauge back to 02 sensor.
5. Switch ignition ON "DO NOT START THE CAR" the gauge will show CAL wait until it changes to 22.5 (the gauge is now calibrated).

calibration done.

the other method with a computer is:-

1. conect computer to gauge serial cable.
2. switch ignition to ON. "DO NOT START THE CAR"
3. start software for gauge (Logworks 3 i think) press calibrate button in software.

calibration done

i only use the first method because i never remember to take my laptop out side to the car first thing in the morning. I even have to put a post it note on the steering wheel to remind me to do the calibarion when i first get in the car in the morning.

Hope this is what you wanted.

[Davezj]

by the way i think the cheapest i found the MTX-L for on the web was £140 from ebay new.
i bought my gauge from the group buy and i had no dealings with the seller that was not innovate, and when i had my issue innovate still gave me a new MTX-L for free. i did not even have a recipt, only a copy of the group buy invoice that foxdie jason gave me.

[chris_dono]

this is in the instruction with the MTX-L
you can do it 2 ways one with a PC one without.
i favour the without method because the rear of my gauge is easily accessable, you will see why.
this is the important bit so take note, to avaid having to remove the O2 sensor from the exhaust so it is in clean air, you can do the followin:-

Ensure the car has been left over night so the exhaust is full of air and not exhaust gas, you have to ensure this which ever method of calibration you do.
If you forget to calibrate first thing in the morning and you start the car even after 2 second, you CAN NOT calibrate the gauge, the exhaust will have exhaust gas in to and the calibration will be wrong.

Calibration method:-

1. diconnect Gauge from O2 sensor, either on the cable that come out of the back of the gauge or at the 02 sensor end of the same cable.
2. switch ignition to ON position "DO NOT START THE CAR" you will get and E9 error. (this deletes any calibration the gauge already has)
3. switch ....

Hope this is what you wanted.

Perfect thanks!

[crazydriver81]

I have a plx with wide band and boost displayed on a dm100. I'd buy it again. No calibration issues at all, good value and reliable. I have had mine for a long time now. The drawbacks are that you can't log the wide band easily and you can't offset the narrow band emulation. Neither of those things bother me though!
Good luck and have fun choosing!

How did you connect the narrowband output to the factory ECU Nick or Gly? I had a quick look into the manual of the PLX SM-AFR and there is only one wire for the narrowband emulation? AFAIK the stock sensor has 4 wires???

[Gly]

just to the input on the ecu.

the other 3 wires are for earth and heating/power

the other 3 are left disconnected

[crazydriver81]

I see. Thanks Carsten!

[Davezj]

oh, forgot to say the MTX-L is a 3 wire install into the cars wiring loom +12V , GND, narrowband emulation output, the O2 sensor is on a milti plug.

[Piers1989]

Sorry for the necro guys, I'm looking at getting a MTL-X myself - I wanted to check about the installation - the narrowband emulation to connect in place of the factory lambda sensor - is this the brown wire and does it just work out of the box after the sensor is calibrated or does it require tweaking for the voltages / AFRs to match the one removed?

[Davezj]

It works out of the box and only 3 wire installation.

you can connect the wide band output to one of the 0-5V spare inputs on the ECU and have it logable from evoscan so when doing.

[Piers1989]

It works out of the box and only 3 wire installation.

you can connect the wide band output to one of the 0-5V spare inputs on the ECU and have it logable from evoscan so when doing.

Sounds good :)

Car is going to the garage for the brakes on Monday, I'll order this now and do the electrical (power) side of the fitting tomorrow and get the garage to fit the sensor / bodge wire on Monday.

Looking here: http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?59222-Definitive-EFI-ECU-Pinout-(KS-Mod-friendly)&highlight=ECU+pinout It looks pretty simple to connect the wideband for logging?

[Davezj]

It is very very simple. just dont both connect the lights on wire. if you connect it to the dimmable light source light the cigaret light to illumination as that is a dimmable source via the wheel next to the dash clock display.
just keep it to the 3 wires to start with.

just remember you need to calibrate the sonsor in an exhaust gas frre environment. so before starting the car after make sure you do the calibration procedure.

[Piers1989]

Yeah I read about your mishap! I already read the manual saying about not to use the "dimming" wire.

Thinking about the calibration, does the sensor need to be in the exhaust for this to happen?

I'm thinking with my garage they won't have long enough to let the exhaust gasses disperse before doing a calibration - is it ok for them to calibrate it in free air before they put it into the exhaust? I would assume so as it's just air with nothing flowing during the calibration anyway?

EDIT: Googling tells me doing it in the open air outside of the exhaust is fine.

[Davezj]

yes you can calibrate the sensor out side of the exhaust in free air. but when you need to calibrate it in the future, you do not need to remove the sensor in the future, just make sure you leave the car over night to allow the exhaust gasses to completely disapate from the exhaust. then perform whichever calibration method suits you. before starting the car for the first time in the morning.
if you forget and crank the engine over for a second or two in the morning and then think oh i was going to calibrate the sensor dont be tempted to calibrate it now. the sensor will be seeing losts of exhaust gas in the exhaust pipe and the clibation will be wrong.
you will either have to wait till the following day or if you absolutely have to calibrate it on that day you will have to remove it from the ehaust and let it dangle in free air to do the calibration.
but calibration should only be required every 6 months or so.

[Piers1989]

Picked up the item from my local Amazon locker today - that was pretty cool :)

One thing I hadn't considered was the bung! I guess my garage can't simply screw the wideband in place of the narrowband or it will get burnt up in the hot exhaust gas?

I have the fassi downpipe which does have a bung of some sorts welded on but I assume it isn't deep enough to the wideband safely? My kit came with a 1" bung which I'm guessing is bigger than the one Fassi uses?

[Nick Mann]

Most lambda sensors have the same thread, so you should be able to fit your wideband sensor in the stock narrowband location.

[adaxo]

Picked up the item from my local Amazon locker today - that was pretty cool :)

One thing I hadn't considered was the bung! I guess my garage can't simply screw the wideband in place of the narrowband or it will get burnt up in the hot exhaust gas?

I have the fassi downpipe which does have a bung of some sorts welded on but I assume it isn't deep enough to the wideband safely? My kit came with a 1" bung which I'm guessing is bigger than the one Fassi uses?

Have the same thoughts when installing mine but screwed wideband where narrow band was and its all good for good few years now, nothing burnout.

[Tarps87]

yes you can calibrate the sensor out side of the exhaust in free air. but when you need to calibrate it in the future, you do not need to remove the sensor in the future, just make sure you leave the car over night to allow the exhaust gasses to completely disapate from the exhaust. then perform whichever calibration method suits you. before starting the car for the first time in the morning.
if you forget and crank the engine over for a second or two in the morning and then think oh i was going to calibrate the sensor dont be tempted to calibrate it now. the sensor will be seeing losts of exhaust gas in the exhaust pipe and the clibation will be wrong.
you will either have to wait till the following day or if you absolutely have to calibrate it on that day you will have to remove it from the ehaust and let it dangle in free air to do the calibration.
but calibration should only be required every 6 months or so.
Is it ok to calibrate the innovative wideband in the exhaust? Looking at the manual it says it should be done out of the exhaust but mine is due a recalibration (didn't realise it was recommended every 6 months for turbo cars) and I can't get under the car at the moment.

[Piers1989]

Is it ok to calibrate the innovative wideband in the exhaust? Looking at the manual it says it should be done out of the exhaust but mine is due a recalibration (didn't realise it was recommended every 6 months for turbo cars) and I can't get under the car at the moment.

From what I understand from this thread its ok so long as you leave it overnight to clear all gasses. DO NOT do it if you have turned the engine on at all in say 8 hours.]

Regarding putting it in the normal hole, thanks for the information. I'll take the risk i think so long as it doesn't end up like 1 inch into the pipe!

[Tarps87]

From what I understand from this thread its ok so long as you leave it overnight to clear all gasses. DO NOT do it if you have turned the engine on at all in say 8 hours.
That's sounds like a plan for tomorrow then, if only the software could do the calibration as I know where the usb connector is, will have to find the sensor one :-)

[Piers1989]

That's sounds like a plan for tomorrow then, if only the software could do the calibration as I know where the usb connector is, will have to find the sensor one :-)

Do you have the MTX-L or whatever its called? If so you dont need anything just unplug the sensor and follow the guide Dave said above.

[Tarps87]

Do you have the MTX-L or whatever its called? If so you dont need anything just unplug the sensor and follow the guide Dave said above.
Yep the MTX-L, gone through the guide just the usb lead is just easier to get to as it's in the glove box :-)

[Piers1989]

Yep the MTX-L, gone through the guide just the usb lead is just easier to get to as it's in the glove box :-)

I guess it depends where you've routed the cabling, my connector on the back of the gauge for the sensor will be easy to get to to disconnect for re calibrations.

[Davezj]

Yep the MTX-L, gone through the guide just the usb lead is just easier to get to as it's in the glove box :-)

if it is easier to calibrate the sensor with the software then calibrate it with the software just connect a laptop start the software click the calibrate button.
you can do it either way.
what ever is easier for you.

[Nick Mann]

Or just buy a plx which doesn't need recalibration all the time! ;)

[hbkuk1]

I replaced my aem with a Plx dm6 very pleased with it touch screen is great

[swinks]

Have the same thoughts when installing mine but screwed wideband where narrow band was and its all good for good few years now, nothing burnout.
It's all because in Legnums location of narrowband is perfect for use wideband instead. It doesn't mean that this applies to all vehicles. General rule is: locate wideband 70-100cm from turbine exit, otherwise you will damage sensor. In vr4 that's the location of narrowband. For example in Evo you have narrowband located 10cm from turbo, hence separate bung is a "must-do".

[Tarps87]

if it is easier to calibrate the sensor with the software then calibrate it with the software just connect a laptop start the software click the calibrate button.
you can do it either way.
what ever is easier for you.
After reading the manual I made the assumption there wasn't a software option, will try using it next time.

Or just buy a plx which doesn't need recalibration all the time! ;)
Is it possible to hook a plx up to the universal trip computer

[Nick Mann]

I have no idea. It has emulated narrow band and 0-5v wideband outputs but it is not directly loggable via usb.

[Piers1989]

Sensor is fitted and working.

Did a fresh calibration as the garage was uncertain if they cleared it when working on it (car had been parked overnight circa 15 hours).

Seemed a bit lumpy when it was cold and warming up compared to normal driving - that said having disconnected the ECU I assume any adaption values are gone and this could account for it perhaps?
What sort of AFR should I be seeing on idle when cold / warm and how much variance should I expect on 14.7 when under load?

One thing that has also just started - the "battery" light (alternator usually I believe) just started coming on when idling or at low RPM. I checked the belt and it still looks fine. Is this just the alternator going or could it be related to anything with the electrics here?

[galantnight]

Is it idling at the right revs??
If you raise the revs a little does it stop and how low are the revs ??

[Piers1989]

Is it idling at the right revs??
If you raise the revs a little does it stop and how low are the revs ??

It was idling high cold - around 1300rpm but for longer than usual.
In gear stationary it was idling around 500rpm and out of dear around 700rpm so I think thats ok?

The Battery light doesn't go out till like 1.7k rpm is held for a second and it then drops back down to idle and comes back on.

[Piers1989]

It was idling high cold - around 1300rpm but for longer than usual.
In gear stationary it was idling around 500rpm and out of dear around 700rpm so I think thats ok?

The Battery light doesn't go out till like 1.7k rpm is held for a second and it then drops back down to idle and comes back on.

Come home from work and Battery light on almost the whole way regardless of revs this time.
Went off four about 2 seconds randomly and came back on despite revving up.

Should I make a new thread? I did a quick search and other than check fuses didn't see much else!

[galantnight]

It was idling high cold - around 1300rpm but for longer than usual.
In gear stationary it was idling around 500rpm and out of dear around 700rpm so I think thats ok?

The Battery light doesn't go out till like 1.7k rpm is held for a second and it then drops back down to idle and comes back on.

Maybe take it to someone to test looks like alternator is on it's way out sorry :(

[Nick Mann]

I'd be checking the alternator but keeping in mind that the wiring has just been played with.

You want to see the afr dropping on load to mid 11's and rising off the scale on overrun.

[Piers1989]

I'd be checking the alternator but keeping in mind that the wiring has just been played with.

You want to see the afr dropping on load to mid 11's and rising off the scale on overrun.

That's what I was thinking Nick. That said I reused existing wiring that I checked with a multimeter to confirm on with ignition and good ground. This has been in for the last 2 days no issue.

The garage disconnected the battery, unplugged the ecu, put spade connectors on the existing lambda wiring and connected the output on the new wideband with another interchangeable spade connector to the ecu. Battery was then reconnected and it was working for them and when I initially picked it up.

Is a striking coincidence tho!

I could disconnect the power to the gague and disconnect the lambda completely for diagnosis? Is it OK to test the car in this way?

I have a car full of stuff for the sound system upgrade so sudden acceleration is something I'm avoiding at the moment. I'll do some pulls when I'm happy the cars OK and check what readings we get.

Thanks :)

[Nick Mann]

If you have a multimeter then check voltages on the battery. You should be seeing around 12.7v with the ignition off and around 14.3v with the engine running.

[Piers1989]

If you have a multimeter then check voltages on the battery. You should be seeing around 12.7v with the ignition off and around 14.3v with the engine running.

Unfortunately not!

Around 12V ignition off (after driving it for about 45 mins yesterday bare in mind), with engine running around 11.4v regardless of RPM.

[Davezj]

as stated before did this battery issue only start immediately after you fitted the Wideband?

disconnect the wide band gauge and test battery change again.

i would have thought if you had the engine running for 45min and the alternator was not charging the battery then you would have drained the battery completely in that time. or at least below 11.4V
so the alternator must be charging the battery.
maybe it is just the output regulator on the alternator is under changing the battery volt wise.

[Piers1989]

as stated before did this battery issue only start immediately after you fitted the Wideband?

disconnect the wide band gauge and test battery change again.

i would have thought if you had the engine running for 45min and the alternator was not charging the battery then you would have drained the battery completely in that time. or at least below 11.4V
so the alternator must be charging the battery.
maybe it is just the output regulator on the alternator is under changing the battery volt wise.

The battery is relatively new (last year I think) and I didnt have any accessories on so I guess there isn't that much load otherwise?

I did try disconnecting the wideband and it did not have an effect :(
Bare in mind it had been connected for 2 days prior just without the sensor and it hadn't been causing a drain or any other noticeable issues.

The garage has the car now to do some more testing but they did check the voltages too and concurred that the alternator isn't outputting correctly.
If it is the voltage regulator I believe I can have it repaired, but depending on the price of one I can get from here I may just take the risk and straight swap if they confirm it's causing the problem as I want the car back for mothers day if possible!

[swinks]

Have they welded in o2 bung to exhaust? Just checking if some silly error didn't occur like not disconnecting battery prior to welding in vehicle, etc.

[Piers1989]

Have they welded in o2 bung to exhaust? Just checking if some silly error didn't occur like not disconnecting battery prior to welding in vehicle, etc.

Good thinking but they didn't adjust the bung at all. The custom pipe has a bung prewelded at a sensible location so it was just a straight swap.

Also they did disconnect the battery.

[Davezj]

just old age/bad luck that alternator has failed just after fitting the wideband gauge.

[Piers1989]

Seems like it! If the garage fit a replacement and it still doesn't work at least it's their problem to some extent.

Is it worth getting one second hand or getting the new one from euro car parts?
I'm just concerned that a used one may also die!

[Nick Mann]

It depends on funds but I think new is usually worth it

[Davezj]

if you are going to get tha alternator replaced which one are you going for the standard 100A or 120A?
120A alternators were fitted to cold spec cars. but if you have a lot of ICE in the car then a larger capacity alternator would not be a bad thing.

[Piers1989]

if you are going to get tha alternator replaced which one are you going for the standard 100A or 120A?
120A alternators were fitted to cold spec cars. but if you have a lot of ICE in the car then a larger capacity alternator would not be a bad thing.

My thoughts exactly - I bought the cold spec one off the FS section here from Graham. Car is cold spec too so nice to keep it how it should be.