pre faclift legnum and td04 conversion questions

[Outreach]

new here from Canada, just put in an order for a 97 VR-4 legnum.

I did a little searching on converting to the TD04 turbos, seems pretty straight forward: need to modify the manis and run custom down pipe and cat deletes, modify oil lines, fuel pump,injectors and do alittle work on the ic piping. my questions are on tuning and space. I read need a new ecu multiple time, what ecu would I need and why? can I not just run an e-manage,safc,or the like. also everyone says its tight but I have not seen any pictures regarding the space confines with the td04 in place. how much bigger are they then the stockers?

also what kind of power will the stock blocks take? I have a set of 19T-HLs that on my 3s support just over 600 horses I assume I can make close to the 500 mark on a legnum with them. how boost friendly is the block in the legnum?

[Gowf]

Okay, where to begin...

It is not easy and it does cost money. What ever you budget, triple it!

When you put it all like you have it does make it sound quite trivial but it really is not. There are a lot of issues that you will find when trying to do it, far to many for me to list here. If you search for a thread by me about 5 years ago you will find how I did it.

As for an ECU, yes you can get away with just running a piggyback should you wish, however I did this and couldnt get over 400bhp. Once swapped to a standalone I WAS able to get up to 444bhp. That in itself is a whole other issue on the benefits of using a standalone, and that is not really a discussion for here.

I see you have a GTO. I was running 13Gs and getting that sort of power, which from what we were aware was more than most GTOs make with them. The block seems fine but the rods are not, they are the weak link. That being said when my old engine was recently stripped it looked like new inside (I was a little excessive on servicing) and there was no sign of any issues to the rods.

The one thing that has been said time and time again, if this is easy, why isnt everyone doing it? I spent around £15000 building mine and then ended up breaking it as I was bored of it. You will also find that once you have this you will also need a clutch (if manual, if auto you may need to do something with the box) and a rear diff, the stock difs are just not built for it, so it really doesnt just stop with the turbo conversion.

As for space though, your biggest enemy is the front, there is a load of room at the back but the front is tight. Depending on how you go about it you will not need to do any bulkhead mods, but you will need to address how you are going to use a radiator.

[Outreach]

The car is going to be my daily driver so not planning on a go for broke setup, the 19T's will make big numbers, the numbers I posted are AWHP not BHP. I don't want to get crazy with the car and blow it up on the first go, I have other cars running on stand alone but would like to keep the costs down in that regard as I really don't need to be able to tune out every once of power. Excuse my ignorance to the systems in the Legnum as I've never actually been able to work on one previous to this one, but how does it take to things like MAF-t setups? people use the MAF-t in conjunction with an SAFC and a gm blow-thu MAF and see very good results in the 3s community.

The reason I made it sound like it did in the first post was because I can fab lines/piping and fuel systems in house and am very capable in that regard. Things like ecu's and the engine itself and space constraints are the bigger pain as I can't really just make more, and sourcing parts is most likely going to a massive pain in those areas. How bad is the stock diff/ what kind of power can it normally cope with? And is space really that tight around the rad that even with push fans I still cant fit it in there? guess thicker rads are out, did you run into cooling issues with your setup?

thanks for your help on this stuff, always a learning curve with each new platform I get into :)

pics of my 3s
656406564165642

[crazydriver81]

Have a chat with guys like Kryton or Anderz - they had/are running TD04 conversions but mainly with Subaru turbos IIRC.

Space in the engine bay is really an issue but if you are going to use push fans you can get rid of the massive fan shrouds and you can fit a 40mm core alloy rad then along with the TD04 turbos.

If you are going to have a good look around this foum, you will also find threads about the later ECU's (99 onwards) which are programmable. To which extent and if suitable for big HP - I don't know exactly.

Good luck - but as Gareth said - a serious build with a 6A13 engine will cost A LOT!

[Nick Mann]

The rear diffs seem to start struggling at around 350lbft. Less if you abuse them with launches etc. That is not too difficult to achieve even on stock tubs. The good news is that evo drive train stuff is often bolt on or easily modifiable to fit, so upgrades are not too tricky to find.

[Kenneth]

The Australians have done a bit with these now. One option you have now which Gowf didn't is a flashable OEM ECU. Unfortunately the pre-facelift VR-4s are more expensive to flash (require different hardware) and can't have modified ROMs loaded on them. You can get a facelift ECU for probably around $300 + shipping.

The top HP car in Australia used KKR280 turbos, bigger injectors and standalone ECU. On standard internals and automatic transmission, it did 255KW at the wheels, or 342hp at the wheels. Our standard calculation formula for transmission loss is hp / 0.76 to account for ~24% transmission loss and then that figure / 0.93 to account for 7% Torque Converter loss if you have an auto. So using that calculation, that car did roughly 480hp on standard internals.

As Gowf said, the standard rods look to be a weak point, though they appear to be OK so long as you don't rev them too high and have zero tolerance for pre-ignition and detonation.

On standard turbos and re-programmed ECU, the biggest number I have heard (Again from Australia) is 225KW at the wheels on standard turbos/internals but using E85. I think using premium unleaded is around 205KW at the wheels. I don't know of the standard ECU being proven past that.

Now, beyond that there is only the Russians. You can do a search for a user named Valmes. I believe it was he who did TD05s onto the standard headers and claimed to be well above 500hp on standard internals. I don't recall seeing any dyno proof of that though. My understanding is that valmes did this using emanage ultimate. That was many years ago though.

Someone else did TD05s in Australia (in the front garden over a couple of weekends or some such) if I recall correctly, but there was no real gain because it was a bit of a hack job (in my opinion anyway) which cost an engine (lubrication fault). This does prove that you can do it on a budget if you are handy with all the gear and are happy hacking at the standard headers, but you should be careful about what you skimp on and your turbo choice. Initial dyno showed something like 180kw at the wheels at wastegate pressure (can fairly easily exceed that on standard turbos with tuning) and no boost until after 4500 RPM :P
My understanding is that the engine was replaced and the car sold on, the new owner has spent some more on it and is getting much better response and reliability (and has had it tuned, I believe this is running the standard ECU though can't confirm it)

There is a fair amount of info going around now, but it is spread fairly thin and you really need to also scope out ozvr4.com for options too as they seem to be more driven in terms of exploring upgrades at the moment.

Interestingly, there have been a number of TD04 conversion floating around in New Zealand (they come up for sale from time to time), but the owners have never shown up on this forum.

[Outreach]

Have a chat with guys like Kryton or Anderz - they had/are running TD04 conversions but mainly with Subaru turbos IIRC.

Space in the engine bay is really an issue but if you are going to use push fans you can get rid of the massive fan shrouds and you can fit a 40mm core alloy rad then along with the TD04 turbos.

If you are going to have a good look around this foum, you will also find threads about the later ECU's (99 onwards) which are programmable. To which extent and if suitable for big HP - I don't know exactly.

Good luck - but as Gareth said - a serious build with a 6A13 engine will cost A LOT!

that's good news, the subie housings are are larger then the US 3s tdo4 housings. and coincidently the 99 3s ecus are flashable as well and are a very capable system so hopefully the same goes for the legnum communities ecus. I'm not overly concerened about the cost, the cars my daily so I don't want to consider it a serious build. whatever hp it makes is what it makes, just want it to be reliable and have alittle more kick to put those subies in their place and keep the American junk at bay.


The rear diffs seem to start struggling at around 350lbft. Less if you abuse them with launches etc. That is not too difficult to achieve even on stock tubs. The good news is that evo drive train stuff is often bolt on or easily modifiable to fit, so upgrades are not too tricky to find.

this is good to know, we actually got the evos here so I should be able to get some good stuff in the way of evo parts :)

[Outreach]

The Australians have done a bit with these now. One option you have now which Gowf didn't is a flashable OEM ECU. Unfortunately the pre-facelift VR-4s are more expensive to flash (require different hardware) and can't have modified ROMs loaded on them. You can get a facelift ECU for probably around $300 + shipping.

The top HP car in Australia used KKR280 turbos, bigger injectors and standalone ECU. On standard internals and automatic transmission, it did 255KW at the wheels, or 342hp at the wheels. Our standard calculation formula for transmission loss is hp / 0.76 to account for ~24% transmission loss and then that figure / 0.93 to account for 7% Torque Converter loss if you have an auto. So using that calculation, that car did roughly 480hp on standard internals.

As Gowf said, the standard internals look to be a weak point, though they appear to be OK so long as you don't rev them too high and have zero tolerance for pre-ignition and detonation.

On standard turbos and re-programmed ECU, the biggest number I have heard (Again from Australia) is 225KW at the wheels on standard turbos/internals but using E85. I think using premium unleaded is around 205KW at the wheels. I don't know of the standard ECU being proven past that.

Now, beyond that there is only the Russians. You can do a search for a user named Valmes. I believe it was he who did TD05s onto the standard headers and claimed to be well above 500hp on standard internals. I don't recall seeing any dyno proof of that though. My understanding is that valmes did this using emanage ultimate. That was many years ago though.

Someone else did TD05s in Australia (in the front garden over a couple of weekends or some such) if I recall correctly, but there was no real gain because it was a bit of a hack job (in my opinion anyway) which cost an engine (lubrication fault). This does prove that you can do it on a budget if you are handy with all the gear and are happy hacking at the standard headers, but you should be careful about what you skimp on and your turbo choice. Initial dyno showed something like 180kw at the wheels at wastegate pressure (can fairly easily exceed that on standard turbos with tuning) and no boost until after 4500 RPM :P
My understanding is that the engine was replaced and the car sold on, the new owner has spent some more on it and is getting much better response and reliability (and has had it tuned, I believe this is running the standard ECU though can't confirm it)

There is a fair amount of info going around now, but it is spread fairly thin and you really need to also scope out ozvr4.com for options too as they seem to be more driven in terms of exploring upgrades at the moment.

Interestingly, there have been a number of TD04 conversion floating around in New Zealand (they come up for sale from time to time), but the owners have never shown up on this forum.

I can assure you I wont be skimping on anything, though would rather not pull apart a low k engine on my DD to make more power with. as far as the TD05's go I wouldn't touch them, I have TD04's still on my 3s that make over 600horses at the wheels so I see no need to try and shoe horn a larger turbo into an engine bay with a smaller displacement engine that seems like backwards thinking to me. I definatly was not aware the highest hp car was only making 34xhp to the wheels that seems really low to me considering the power the 3s guys can make with the TD04s on only .5L more displacement. almost tempted to try and break that record :P

as I said earlier id like to stay out of stand alone for this car just because of what it is and the costs involved, I just want to make easy power with the td04's. I wont be doing a hack job of it though, we can make a set of quality headers and piping in house, as well as the oil lines,fuel,coolant etc. don't want to over build it and blow 50K+ but I wont skimp anywhere. Gowf said 15k im fine with that number. originally only wanted to make 350 ish at the wheels but given the information im getting that's a pretty lofty number in this platform :(

[Kenneth]

I can assure you I wont be skimping on anything, though would rather not pull apart a low k engine on my DD to make more power with. as far as the TD05's go I wouldn't touch them, I have TD04's still on my 3s that make over 600horses at the wheels so I see no need to try and shoe horn a larger turbo into an engine bay with a smaller displacement engine that seems like backwards thinking to me. I definatly was not aware the highest hp car was only making 34xhp to the wheels that seems really low to me considering the power the 3s guys can make with the TD04s on only .5L more displacement. almost tempted to try and break that record :P

You need to keep in mind that the 6a13T engine makes peak hp at 5500RPM and then drops off fairly quickly, so it isn't good at giving great peak HP numbers.
If I recall correctly, Gowfs results set a torque record for the turbos used though, which seems to be where the 6a13 really shines. The problem is if you whack on big turbos, you don't get boost in the right places to really show what the engine can do. Gowf is the best result I have seen in that regard.

Crank has been proven to in excess of 600hp (engine), but was reported to suffer micro-cracking at 650. (user name zentac, he had this in a FTO)

[Outreach]

You need to keep in mind that the 6a13T engine makes peak hp at 5500RPM and then drops off fairly quickly, so it isn't good at giving great peak HP numbers.
If I recall correctly, Gowfs results set a torque record for the turbos used though, which seems to be where the 6a13 really shines. The problem is if you whack on big turbos, you don't get boost in the right places to really show what the engine can do. Gowf is the best result I have seen in that regard.

Crank has been proven to in excess of 600hp (engine), but was reported to suffer micro-cracking at 650. (user name zentac, he had this in a FTO)

lol sorry I just realised I said td04 instead of td05, original post edited. yeah I wouldn't put a td05 on. these engines plot similar to the 3s engines with the 9bs on them. Gowf used a 13g and saw good results, there are td04s that spool considerably faster and also make a great deal more power. my 19T's make full 28 psi of boost at 3400 rpm on my 3L and stupid power, on the legnum with proper exaust and manifold work would probably spool around the 4200-4500 mark if not sooner and would hold that till redline without a problem unlike the stockers. by the sounds of the engine would probably grenade before I even had full usable boost though.

any engine can make big numers if set up properly, but by the sounds of it guys aren't strapping down 3800$ + custom made turbos to an engine that may or may not through a rod out the side of the block

[wintertidenz]

I've put some pictures up on my build thread of the clearance on standard manifolds on the front with a TD04.

[Outreach]

I've put some pictures up on my build thread of the clearance on standard manifolds on the front with a TD04.

reading the thread now, have question though was there any particular reason you didn't flip the turbo around and reclock it? that may be a stupid question as im not very well versed in these cars yet.


these are TD04 turbo housings im using the top one is a stock 3s and the bottom is a 19T the custom set I have are slightly larger :)
65657

[wintertidenz]

I've now pulled the turbos apart for a rebuild, and the locating pins will be removed to allow me to orient the CHRA the best way. The 90 degree inlet will also be removed - these turbos were picked up for extremely cheap, so I don't mind having to mess around a bit with them.

The turbos I'm using are 13G's from a Subaru Impreza, which are very common here in NZ and therefore they are easy to pick up for a good price.

[Anderz]

If you modify or build new manifolds there is no space issues. You don't have to remove AC, move oilfilter or replace radiator fans (with stock radiator). I mean the front turbo is a tight fit but it is doable :)
I did the conversion by removing the stock flanges from the manifolds and replacing them with wrx flanges. The stock manifolds are such cast material that can be welded, have not had problems with cracking
Using WRX TD04L-13T but have planned to upgrade to hybrid TD04L-19T

Here are some pictures from my build
https://picasaweb.google.com/104532705844333280779/TD0413TProjekt?authkey=Gv1sRgCLC-wq3siKv_hgE#

[unclepaulie]

can some provide some logic on why is everyone so set on using td turbos? there many other better options out there considering you need to redo the manifolds/dumps/piping i see no reason other then skimping to use second had td turbos from whats essentially old cars.

[wintertidenz]

Because TD04s are easily found and rebuilt most likely. They also provide a fair bit more power without the sacrifice of lag vs response (500 rpm approx later spool).

[swinks]

IIRC kochajj uses hybrid TD04HL-19T with Subaru flanges. Front and rear clearance are OK, no need to remove or relocate anything.

[Gowf]

In all honesty after doing this years ago and setting some records as has been stated (340bhp ATW which was 444bhp ATF and over 500lbft), I wouldnt go for these again. You will suffer if you use the 19T's if you do not put in some decent sized cams.

Now if I were to do this again, I would use 2 x garrett GT2871's with a 0.8AR including some modified casings and uprated bearing cages. In addition I would also throw in a set of billet 272ish cams with a nice 10.5mm lift, but still use the stock tappets (so limit the revs to 8k) and some Cosworth E9 Beehive springs. All being well that sort of set up should see the high 600's with relative ease. Clearly here you would also need a set of custom JE pistons with ceramic coated crowns, extra oil relief and moly skirts, along with a beefy set of rods. A good bit of removing all the unwanted head and manifold aluminium that mitsi couldnt be bothered machining properly and you would definitely have a good car. Not that I know of anyone doing anything like that at all.

Seriously though, even with the 13g's on 109 octane fuel, it just had no balls top end due to the cams. I am still adamant that with a decent set of cams I would have been up at the 500bhp mark with my old set up.

As for cooling, yes I had major issues.. well not really. It was fine on the road, to some degree, but what was found was that the heads were lifting at 1.4bar with the 13g's and a good deal of coolant would leave the engine when on the dyno. Ran fine though, I even managed a 40mile drive with no coolant at all, and after stripping the engine recently you wouldnt know.... looked like new and even the bearings were still in spec!

[Kryton]

Don't know how I missed my tag. I used mitsubishi td 04's with custom flanges. Agree with everything mentioned above & certainly no space issues if you clock the tubs so no need to remove any other parts. I would personally budget between $8000 & $16000 depending on if you intend on upgrading other parts like diffs etc at same time or just wait for things to break. Good luck with the project

[Outreach]

can some provide some logic on why is everyone so set on using td turbos? there many other better options out there considering you need to redo the manifolds/dumps/piping i see no reason other then skimping to use second had td turbos from whats essentially old cars.

I would use TD-04s because I like them as a turbo, they are what I use on my 600+AWHP 3S, and because I have multiple sets laying around including a custom set of 19T's that will out spool and out flow almost any other td04/td05 on the market. the set I have spool faster then the tiny ass stock 9b's on a 3000gt or stealth. and because they fit


In all honesty after doing this years ago and setting some records as has been stated (340bhp ATW which was 444bhp ATF and over 500lbft), I wouldnt go for these again. You will suffer if you use the 19T's if you do not put in some decent sized cams.

Now if I were to do this again, I would use 2 x garrett GT2871's with a 0.8AR including some modified casings and uprated bearing cages. In addition I would also throw in a set of billet 272ish cams with a nice 10.5mm lift, but still use the stock tappets (so limit the revs to 8k) and some Cosworth E9 Beehive springs. All being well that sort of set up should see the high 600's with relative ease. Clearly here you would also need a set of custom JE pistons with ceramic coated crowns, extra oil relief and moly skirts, along with a beefy set of rods. A good bit of removing all the unwanted head and manifold aluminium that mitsi couldnt be bothered machining properly and you would definitely have a good car. Not that I know of anyone doing anything like that at all.

Seriously though, even with the 13g's on 109 octane fuel, it just had no balls top end due to the cams. I am still adamant that with a decent set of cams I would have been up at the 500bhp mark with my old set up.

As for cooling, yes I had major issues.. well not really. It was fine on the road, to some degree, but what was found was that the heads were lifting at 1.4bar with the 13g's and a good deal of coolant would leave the engine when on the dyno. Ran fine though, I even managed a 40mile drive with no coolant at all, and after stripping the engine recently you wouldnt know.... looked like new and even the bearings were still in spec!

I have 9bs, 15gs, and a few others here ill probably try different things for fun before I do 19T's, the 19T's are currently on my 3s but will be coming off once a stroker goes in and will push a set of DR turbos. doing cams isn't a huge deal, could throw in a set of 64/72s or a 72 set and do the manifold work with not to much of a hassle. do you guys have a head lift fix figured out? had the same issue with 3s cars at high boost levels. solved it by welding in some of the passegways and rods in the heads, don't know if that's something to look at for these engines. I wasn't wanting to go to crazy with the car and break open the block on a low milage car, just wanted to do what I can to give it alittle more go till its time for a rebuild in a few years. the legnum is just for going to road trips and getting groceries etc.