350bhp on stock turbos?

[gazmk2]

Had a bit of a search and I know about the thread asking about what mods needed for 350-400bhp but nothing in there tells me if I can reach 350 ish (340 would do!) is possible on standard turbos?

I know there are other factors like the general health of the engine/turbos and supporting mods but just for arguments sake lets say both engine and turbos are all well and in the case of my car there is a lager aftermarket FMIC, a full turbo's back decate exhaust system and a good old Ken & Nigel panel filter.

She dyno'd at very close to 300 horses (298 with Ben's fudge factor, 215 at the wheels) and I really would love to get to somehwere close to 350bhp next year!

What do we recon?


Cheers

Gary

[Kenneth]

People in New Zealand and Australia are getting 340-350hp (using 24% drivetrain loss so 250-270hp at the wheels) fairly easily with those mods and ECU tuning.

[vr4cobra]

I'm running about 263awhp/196.3awkw on a boiling 34deg C day outside the dyno cell so should be bout wat Ken said to the fly. I'm running stock turbos, full exhaust, hard ic pipes, fmic, fuel rail loop, vk22 spark plugs, walbro 255 pump and tuned to 19psi if that helps

[gazmk2]

Sweet! cheers for responses chaps. I take it a hard pipe kit would be a wise move then? this is obviously going to be abcked up with improved braking etc. I am just really gutted I couldn't follow through with the radiator group buy as an alloy rad would have been good.

[Nick Mann]

There are a lot of people in the UK running similar mods but with less power. Traditionally power figures in the UK are lower for similar mods. I can only think of three cars that have hit 350 or more on stock tubs and they were all very well tuned.

[gazmk2]

So long as its somewhere near that would be great! No particular reason for doing this to be honest, I just want to! LOL I don't even know if I will actually do it as I do have another expensive hobby that's fighting for my hard earned!

[WOODY72]

So long as its somewhere near that would be great! No particular reason for doing this to be honest, I just want to! LOL I don't even know if I will actually do it as I do have another expensive hobby that's fighting for my hard earned!

Women?

[Davezj]

Had a bit of a search and I know about the thread asking about what mods needed for 350-400bhp but nothing in there tells me if I can reach 350 ish (340 would do!) is possible on standard turbos?

I know there are other factors like the general health of the engine/turbos and supporting mods but just for arguments sake lets say both engine and turbos are all well and in the case of my car there is a lager aftermarket FMIC, a full turbo's back decate exhaust system and a good old Ken & Nigel panel filter.

She dyno'd at very close to 300 horses (298 with Ben's fudge factor, 215 at the wheels) and I really would love to get to somehwere close to 350bhp next year!

What do we recon?


Cheers

Gary

Is you vr4 a manual or auto.

What you have to remember is here in the UK dyno dynamics rolling road has an atmospheric compensation on it so the hp figure you get has been compensated to about 20 deg C even if you test your car on a cold winter day. So you do not have to worry about the type of day it was tested on, as long as the dyno is setup correctly it will give you a hp figure that you would get on a normal 20deg C day. This is all within the drivetrain compensation as well.

I would have said 215 is about the right for a ball park figure, you should be able to get more out of the car with an ecu tune.
But that is just my opinion.

[gazmk2]

Women?

Dunno if I would call being married a hobby! Expensive definately!! LOL

I also fly radio controlled helicopters, flown planes for years but helicpopters have fought my interest big time lately!

[gazmk2]

Car is an auto Dave. It's running 14 psi now so not sure what extra I now have as it was running 12 psi when I had it dynod. I know it's as quick as a standard mk2 focus RS, quicker than a mate's 305bhp 350z and quicker than an e46 m3!

[CANDEE]

I have 185kw atw/248hp atw with just a panel filter, exhaust and fmic with 11psi. But that is with a car with 70k kms/43k miles on it.. ;)

[Nick Mann]

That's coming back to a nz uk difference again. We never see those numbers with those mods in the UK. I don't remember ever seeing more than 230 at the wheels in the UK without exhaust, intercooler, boost, fuelling and tuning. And I have seen a LOT of vr4s on the dyno.

[Adam.Findlay]

I made 214 kW ATW / 287 hp ATW with
600x300x76 FMIC,
walboro intank pump,\
K&N pannel filter,
3" cat back exhaust
262/9.8 cam regrind & valve springs
and a pretty basic ecu reflash I did myself. with the 24 percent loss kenneth said above is 350ish at the engine

[CANDEE]

Nick, mine was 164kw atw bone stock(11psi) and some really thick oil in it... Its sister car had 153kw with an hks panel filter and ralliart backbox(10psi stock) on the same day, but had about 40,000km's more on the clock.

[lateshow]

We got 354 bhp from the engine using ethanol fuel + all the basic mods. :)

[Davezj]

Car is an auto Dave. It's running 14 psi now so not sure what extra I now have as it was running 12 psi when I had it dynod. I know it's as quick as a standard mk2 focus RS, quicker than a mate's 305bhp 350z and quicker than an e46 m3!

I think it will take new camshafts and a good long proper dyno ecu tune to get more out of your car.
The outside OZ and NZ power figures are always much higher than the uk figures for some reason, with the same mods. It is very odd but unexplained.

[gazmk2]

Like I said 350 ish would be the aim but I do understand the variables involved. Mine would most definately require a fresh set of turbos as the rear one has been a little smokey on lift off since I bought it in May 2012.

I also think a top end rebuild might be in order as the lifter tick can be quite bad on my car these days!

[Gowf]

The most I have seen on stock turbos with stock internals was 340 I think.... BUT this was a very low milage engine, and when it came back a couple of years later, it had lost a good 25-30bhp. It had a really nice exhaust and downpipes (hayward and scott), panel filters, maf removed, intercooler, and ecu.

The turbos are just pants above 1bar, but then if you can cool the charge sufficiently (meth) then you should be able to do it.

[swinks]

The most I have seen on stock turbos with stock internals was 340 I think.... BUT this was a very low milage engine, and when it came back a couple of years later, it had lost a good 25-30bhp. It had a really nice exhaust and downpipes (hayward and scott), panel filters, maf removed, intercooler, and ecu.

Gareth, mine was 340 mark at flywheel on stock cams on 91k miles engine. Then she did 338 on 5 cylinders with 262 cams, and then I got fed up with powah chase in vr4 /toycar
Seconded with boost levels tho. Anything more than 1.1 bar will give you nothing.

[Davezj]

What was you vr4 doing when you had the 262 cams, 6 cylinders and the meth injection.
Or was it bum dyno compared to what you had before.

I am thinking of going down the cam route. Was it about £600 for the cam regrind and springs.

[swinks]

What was you vr4 doing when you had the 262 cams, 6 cylinders and the meth injection.
Or was it bum dyno compared to what you had before.
Whith cams fitted I did a dyno runs soon after. Unfortunately, on very beginning of dyno run, cylinder #1 spark plug had blown (ceramic insulator gone) and this cylinder lost compression. But still vr4 made good 267 HP ATW on remained 5 cylinders with some massive smoke and bangs from a tailpipe :)
Meth injection was switched off at that time because it may foul some readings, and we didn't get to a fine tune mode due to spark blown issue.

Regarding 350 mark figure.
There is one and general rule.
Before any mods to setup you have to get very fine flat healthy afr reading. Flat 10's on a engine load. Any readings bouncing like EEG will get you nowhere.
In other words getting healthy baseline is "a must".

[fassi1]

What's the benefit from going in to 10's from lets say 11.5 with bost levels 1-1.1bar?

[swinks]

What's the benefit from going in to 10's from lets say 11.5 with bost levels 1-1.1bar?
Simply.
If you can't get 9.8-10.1 flat line in stock setting then it's something wrong with your engine.
Once you get this figure, you can play with fuelling etc.
But sequence should be:
- 1st stage: mechanical changes and mods with keeping stock afr base line. Achieving rise of powah and torque with stock settings.
- 2nd stage: change in fuelling, timing, other values in ecu, etc. Further rise of power and torque.

Boost levels. That's something like turbo flow chart. TD03-7T was even here somwhere. Hope I don't need to explain you what "flow chart" stands for. ;)

I'm sorry I need to explain you basics I was convinced that you know all this stuff.

[fassi1]

The only benefit is that your fuel pump can produce enough pressure for higher boost when more fuel will be needed, nothing else.
Stock AFR base lines are rubbish. Running 10.1 - 9.8 gets you nowhere at boost levels 1 - 1.1bar with supporting intake and exhaust mods.

[Davezj]

Regarding 350 mark figure.
There is one and general rule.
Before any mods to setup you have to get very fine flat healthy afr reading. Flat 10's on a engine load. Any readings bouncing like EEG will get you nowhere.
In other words getting healthy baseline is "a must".

as an aside, you have to careful saying you need a flat 10 on the AFR, as some dyno operators (area 52) will not show AFR below 10 as this is regarded far to rich and you don't want to be in that area like adaxo adams car was on the recent Rolling road day and e thought that his afr was really stable but it was the graphing peramiter reaching end of there allowable ploting scale. So on the ploted graph it looks like you have a flat 10 afr when you really have 9.0 - 10 afr.
but i get what you are saying Tomasz, once you have a stable afr you can then move the afr desired value to more like 11.5-12 afr, as i believe the max power on petrol is made at 12.5 afr and you should stay on the concervative side of that figure.

[swinks]

The only benefit is that your fuel pump can produce enough pressure for higher boost when more fuel will be needed, nothing else.
Stock AFR base lines are rubbish. Running 10.1 - 9.8 gets you nowhere at boost levels 1 - 1.1bar with supporting intake and exhaust mods.
Kris, please read twice or maybe three times again what I was saying please befor posting here.
I tired after long shift at work, and really trying hard not to be rude.
BASELINE for modification is a key word.
Renown tuner workshops simply refuse to do any work if you haven't got mentioned baseline.

[swinks]

as an aside, you have to careful saying you need a flat 10 on the AFR, as some dyno operators (area 52) will not show AFR below 10 as this is regarded far to rich and you don't want to be in that area like adaxo adams car was on the recent Rolling road day and e thought that his afr was really stable but it was the graphing peramiter reaching en of there allowable ploting scale. So on the ploted graph it looks like you have a flat 10 afr when you really have 9.0 - 10 afr.
but i get what you are saying Tomasz, once you have a stable afr you can then move the afr desired value to more like 11.5-12 afr, as i believe the max power on petrol is made at 12.5 afr and you should stay on the concervative side of that figure.
Correct Dave.
Good dyno and tune workshops deal with this. You have a good example of Eurospec. They read up to 7:1.

[fassi1]

BASELINE for modification is a key word.
If only a BASELINE I'll have to agree with that.

[lateshow]

Here you can see the AFR & boost and then power and torque in the vr4 that produced over 350... The afr appears to dip a bit but this happens with stock injectors and ethanol no matter what you do. BUT in the power area over 4000rpm the AFR line seems to be rather stable about 12.

There is no boost control. The lines are just blocked. These were the boost levels

http://lateshow.1g.fi/kuvat/vr4/freefuel/vr4boost.jpg


And the power. Has anyone tuned figured close to 600Nm ;)
http://lateshow.1g.fi/kuvat/vr4/freefuel/vr4dyno.jpg

[Nick Mann]

Very good power, amazing torque! I have seen 500Nm a few times, you have achieved over 400lbft!

[lateshow]

That is E85 speaking! :) And you can sense the power!

[fassi1]

Very nice figure. Shame that over 4000rpm boost starts drooping and at 5000rpm is already 1bar.

[lateshow]

Very nice figure. Shame that over 4000rpm boost starts drooping and at 5000rpm is already 1bar.

And there's nothing that can be done. Better pipework etc. will have only a small effect. What we need is td04-13t turbos, which i'll hopefully get soon :)

[fassi1]

And there's nothing that can be done. Better pipework etc. will have only a small effect. What we need is td04-13t turbos, which i'll hopefully get soon :)
Truth, td04-13t will definitely make big improvement. Do you still have stock pre turbo air intake?
Since I have added 60mm air ducting pre air box, running 1.2bar, I can still hold 1.2bar at 5000rpm and just over 1bar at 6500rpm having lower vacuum levels pre turbo than before when boost would drop mora than that.

[Davezj]

Here you can see the AFR & boost and then power and torque in the vr4 that produced over 350... The afr appears to dip a bit but this happens with stock injectors and ethanol no matter what you do. BUT in the power area over 4000rpm the AFR line seems to be rather stable about 12.

There is no boost control. The lines are just blocked. These were the boost levels

http://lateshow.1g.fi/kuvat/vr4/freefuel/vr4boost.jpg


And the power. Has anyone tuned figured close to 600Nm ;)
http://lateshow.1g.fi/kuvat/vr4/freefuel/vr4dyno.jpg

that boost curve looks familier, from my last RR day mine was very simila, but i made noware near the power you did just under 300hp at the fly wheel.

is your figure at the fly wheel or at the wheels?

is yours a manual or auto?

was the correction for power train factored into the 260KW?


sorry for the questions, i just want to get my head round how far off i am.

[lateshow]

The car that was dynoed has stock air intake. Would be hard to believe that intake made such a big difference. Fassi1 What is your intake like? Pictures?

The car made a little over 203,X kW ATW and then dyno dynamics calculated the losses and said it was about 260kW at the flywheel. The car is a manual. Actually not my car. Reasons for big power and torque are bigger advance and leaner mixture than on gasoline. E85 simply rules. The same car made about 300 hp at the flywheel couple of years ago on hot day with about same boost settings and gasoline.

[fassi1]

My intake from air box to turbos is standard, I only added extra ducting to the snorkel, pictures and test results are here
http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?48045-standard-air-box-clearances-how-much-cold-air-really-gets-to-it/page3
The result are: boost comes up quicker and is held for much longer. I can't tell what is the power gain cause I haven;'t tested it.
I've only tested vacuum levels at some points. I'm definitely gonna do rr test at some point this year, hopefully testing it with and without extra ducting just to see the difference.

[Davezj]

The car that was dynoed has stock air intake. Would be hard to believe that intake made such a big difference. Fassi1 What is your intake like? Pictures?

The car made a little over 203,X kW ATW and then dyno dynamics calculated the losses and said it was about 260kW at the flywheel. The car is a manual. Actually not my car. Reasons for big power and torque are bigger advance and leaner mixture than on gasoline. E85 simply rules. The same car made about 300 hp at the flywheel couple of years ago on hot day with about same boost settings and gasoline.

cheers Lauri that great info.
translate into bhp, 203 Kw is a little over 272bhp at the wheels, which is great.
the power train calc works out to be a under the normal 24% loss which sound about right as the 24% loss is not applicable the higher the power figure is, this percentage loss figure must reduce, as you would not say a 1000 hp car with this power train will have a 240bhp loss through it. so all sound good with figures.

i must get my finger out and try some tuning options. to get some more grin factor.
i would have thought i should be able to get to about 230-240hp at the wheels before next RR Day which will be nice, i have lots to do.

[Twpsin]

The most I have seen on stock turbos with stock internals was 340 I think.... BUT this was a very low milage engine, and when it came back a couple of years later, it had lost a good 25-30bhp. It had a really nice exhaust and downpipes (hayward and scott), panel filters, maf removed, intercooler, and ecu.

The turbos are just pants above 1bar, but then if you can cool the charge sufficiently (meth) then you should be able to do it.

As Gowf said my car did loose a few horses thought to be a problem with the turbos but the car is still running strong. Below hopefully is a link the the graphs

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?45146-Another-Eurospec-Vipec-ECU-Success

The car is standard apart from, 3" exhaust system, vispec ECU, air filter and uprated brakes

[Gowf]

Here you can see the AFR & boost and then power and torque in the vr4 that produced over 350... The afr appears to dip a bit but this happens with stock injectors and ethanol no matter what you do. BUT in the power area over 4000rpm the AFR line seems to be rather stable about 12.

There is no boost control. The lines are just blocked. These were the boost levels

http://lateshow.1g.fi/kuvat/vr4/freefuel/vr4boost.jpg


And the power. Has anyone tuned figured close to 600Nm ;)
http://lateshow.1g.fi/kuvat/vr4/freefuel/vr4dyno.jpg


They are pretty nice figures. I achieved 680nm before we stopped going any further with it as i was unsure on the bottom end taking more than 500lbft. I also ran mine on 109 octane to find the true afr sweetspot. What was found was that above around 11.5 it made very little difference to the output, the biggest problem was that there just wasn't enough air getting in to the engine due to the very conservative stock cams. In general though a lambda value of 0.88-0.91 will give you maximum power, which is contrary to what you would believe if you look into the chemistry behind it. Unfortunately the thermodynamic behavior of a conventional spark ignition ICE adds far more complexity, and is not a fixed volume/temperature reaction vessel.

[lateshow]

They are pretty nice figures. I achieved 680nm before we stopped going any further with it as i was unsure on the bottom end taking more than 500lbft. I also ran mine on 109 octane to find the true afr sweetspot. What was found was that above around 11.5 it made very little difference to the output, the biggest problem was that there just wasn't enough air getting in to the engine due to the very conservative stock cams. In general though a lambda value of 0.88-0.91 will give you maximum power, which is contrary to what you would believe if you look into the chemistry behind it. Unfortunately the thermodynamic behavior of a conventional spark ignition ICE adds far more complexity, and is not a fixed volume/temperature reaction vessel.

What do you mean be 109 octane. Was it some kind of race fuel (still gasoline/petrol) or was it E85. Since in nearly every car the AFR spot for ethanol based fuel has been over 12 (in na engines close to 13). I believe that with gasoline what you're saying is correct. As we know the chemical reaction is different with alcohol. You don't get E85 in UK?

Did you have a modified fuel rail? If using standard rail and big injector can one be sure that the last injectors in line get nearly the same amount of fuel as the first ones? GTO has been known for that problem. Could that requirement for 11.5 have something to do with cylinders in the back going slighlty leaner?

[CANDEE]

Did you have a modified fuel rail? If using standard rail and big injector can one be sure that the last injectors in line get nearly the same amount of fuel as the first ones? GTO has been known for that problem. Could that requirement for 11.5 have something to do with cylinders in the back going slighlty leaner?

You can get these: http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItemBundle.asp?idProduct=1164, which will fix the fuel leanout issue on the rear bank.