Gearbox Knock?

[Colin Wiltshire]

I've had my engine change, with the 265 profile cams with TD04 9b's.

However, the engine/knock light is on more than it's off. After Nick Mann investigated using his "old skool method" seems to think the knock is coming from the gear box, not the engine. I have heard a clunk when I re-engage the clutch, but not every time.

So, is the manual gearbox on the way out? just the input shaft bearing?

Nick says cost to refurb is around £700 inc taking out and refitting. After spending £2k+ getting this engine change sorted, I have no money left.

So maybe blind answers here, but will it last? or cheaper/other options?

[adaxo]

Any chance to post some evoscan logs?

[Colin Wiltshire]

Any chance to post some evoscan logs?

Sorry, I don't have it.

[adaxo]

IMO this will tell us a lot if your knock is false or not, I know you spend a lot money recently but $25ish for evoscan and £5 for generic obd cable is well worth to spend for diagnosis of your exact issue.

[Nick Mann]

Just to clarify the points from my perspective:
Colins check engine light was showing knock. This was diagnosed as potentially piston slap.
Colin bought a known good engine, which I fitted to his car last week. The cel is still showing knock.
The knock sensor was not changed, so the problem is identical across two sensors and two engines. The second engine is a known good unit.
Disconnecting the knock sensor stops knock registering.
It is possible to register knock in neutral with the car stationary.
The clutch was changed but wasn't new, the release bearing was retained.

Following these observations, my feeling was that the problem is very likely not to be engine related, knock sensor related or loom related.

The items that I hadn't discluded at this point seem to be the turbos, release bearing and gearbox input shaft.

The only way I have to listen to a running engine is with a solid bar pressed between the engine and my ear. Listening to the engine, all Incould hear was bearing noises and lifters ticking. However, listening to the gearbox I could hear a knock. I got a helpful person to sit in the drivers seat and press the clutch pedal. I could tell by the knocking noise starting and stopping if the clutch pedal was up or down.

It seemed to me that revving the car in neutral with the clutch pressed solved the cel knock but the cel knock is not always there when revving in neutral. Pressing the clutch pedal when driving and seeing the cel knock light also seems to solve the cel knock but then so does lifting the throttle pedal.

So in summary I think plenty of stuff is pointing at the gearbox, possibly release bearing or input shaft bearings. However I can not be certain enough to guarantee that is the problem.

[adaxo]

I've changed my gbox/bearings twice now non of them affect knock sensor, and both of them was very noisy when clutch was up and quiet with clutch press down.

[Nick Mann]

Like I said, I can't promise that the gearbox is the cause of the CEL showing knock. If anyone has any alternative theories for Colin, it will be appreciated! Especially if any of them are cheap.... :D

It is worth noting that listening to the gearbox I could hear a definite knock, not just a loud whine.

[Colin Wiltshire]

Mmm thinking about it, I think I might have Evoscan on my old laptop. Just looking on Ebay for a cable now

[Colin Wiltshire]

Got my cable today, found I have version 2.9 of evoscan.

[Colin Wiltshire]

Evoscan wouldn't work, So had to uninstall then update. Don't think I've even opened Evoscan since I downloaded it a few yrs ago. I'll try again it in a bit, and see what happens

[Colin Wiltshire]

OK, seems I got an obd 2 cable, after spending all afternoon trying to install drivers etc, it says car is not compatable, as for Evoscan, that still won't work, say's ftdi usb drivers not installed. Please install ecu flash from evoscan website. I have done this.

[Davezj]

i removed and refitted a mates manual gear box after a input shaft and clutch release bearing was changed, the noise was quite loud from the gearbox area, very audible at idle but check engine light did not come on when noise was heard. however the noise was more of a whirring noise rather than an actual knock noise. noise was there when clutch pedal up and gone when clutch pedal was down.

[Colin Wiltshire]

Does sound more probability that is the engine, but, the same problem (as in the Knock light coming on) although worse with this 1, across 2 engines doesn't sound right.

However I did wonder about the 262 cams, with the stiffer springs and no shims, whether that is causing it, just grabbing at straws.

I'm assuming that the hesitation/holding back I'm getting is the ecu pulling timing?

[adaxo]

Try to stick evoscan logs here it will help.

Was thinking the same regards uprated cams being noisy but im sure previous owner would also see knock? how long did you run this engine? asking as when I fit spare engine which was on the pallet for nearly a year it take a while until all become nice and quiet again, like few hours of idling/running then idling again.

did you also change injectors? may they causing knock? again, evoscan logs will probably tell us a lot more

[Davezj]

i would go done the evoscan logging route as well.

[Colin Wiltshire]

If I can get it to work, then I will

[swinks]

Well, gutted for you Colin.
Engine was good and sound untill removal from Fart. Adam had seen one running smooth at Japfest2 last year, week later for 2 days engine was abused by Ben@Eurospec where we did approach problems with fuelling related to injectors (I fitted low impedance injectors instead high impedance) and ecu. With 248 ATW I got (with mapping and fuel delivery problems), far from expecting 275-280 and some Ben comments I decided to give in and to go for E8/9.
Anyway, not a single knock or any sort of fault shown whilst Maretzky85 tune or session Eurospec. And since August 2013 not been driven after my pourchase of E8. Before removal (in September), Paul (psbarham) did compression test with results:
150, 147, 150
150, 148, 150
No blow by pistons, checked by simple removing oil cup - no gases blowing.
As for 262 cams, yes, that may be noisy. My lifters settled down after 1 month or so. Apparently noisy profiled cams are quite common, even those made from scratch. In Evo world GSC and BC cams can be noisy as well. So, for this issue I reckon there is no one definitive cure.

As for your CEL light. Are you sure it's knock related? Does it means that you are running Kenneth rom with "CEL on knock" feature? How can you be sure thaty it's nothing wrong with actual flashed rom?
If you have available stock ecu, try to swap one.
Another thought - turbos. It's known that loose wastegate flap can give you knock similar sound, especially on idle rattling of wastegate flap occurs. Well, thinking loud...

Well, IMO, it's very unlikely that the same issue will occur in 2 different engines. My guess is that "piston slap" in you 1st engine was wrong diagnose. I would rather look at engine managment system, or engine delivery system (injectors, fuelling, turbos).

BTW, increased issue of "knock" may be related to polybush engine/gearbox mounts you got from me. Those were uprated stiff inserts (ultra hard, not medium) so any tiny vibration was transfered into chassis with ease. Yes, less comfort, but engine/throttle response better.

[orionn2o]

have you actually tried to install FTDIs drivers from the FTDI website?

Also I presume this is unrelated but when I bought my VAG-COM cable, i needed to short together pins 1 and 4 to get it to work with the vr4

[swinks]

Colin, regarding cable and Evoscan...:
1. You will need VAG-KKL cable (chipset FTDI 232), other VAG cable won't work. You will need to permamently bridge pins 1 and 4 in cable plug.
2. Installation...
- install drivers of VAG-KKL first on your laptop. These are FTDI 232, you can get one from demo EcuFlash soft (install all drivers library).
- instal Evoscan
- plug in cable, do not install default drivers for cable, choose from options to install FTDI 232 one.
Now, evoscan should communicate via cable with your laptop.

[orionn2o]

Just to note , when I did mine I didn't bother installing VAG-KKL. I just got the drivers from here:

http://www.ftdichip.com/FTDrivers.htm

P.s. i'm not questioning what Tomasz says, just adding extra info if you have problems.

[Nick Mann]

Mr. Swinks has a good idea with the turbo actuators. Also the poly mounts increasing the knock.
My understanding is that the ecu is a ksrom version with cel on knock activated. Jason flashing this was when the "knock" became an issue, as the car couldn't be tuned. The ecu is also storing a code for knock.
I do agree that the engine is very unlikely to be the issue, the knock is not actual knock but something else and that piston slap in the previous engine was unlikely to have been the cause of knock then.

If I owned the car I would talk to a rolling road operator who owned a decent mechanics stethoscope.

[adaxo]

Agree with above, flashing knock light is probably registered phantom knock, again, it will be clearly visible on logs from evoscan.

R you still run the same rom/tune from last rr day? if yes I would flash it with standard rom and start from there, IIRC there is an option to set how sensitive is knock sensor or how much knock is allowed until is trigger CEL light so this is may worth to check, how its actually set in your ecu.

And yes, decent mechanic/tuner around your area who know how to use stethoscope should be able to diagnose what's 'rattling'.

I would ask again, is there standard injectors or different ones currently fitted? if they are not standard ones, you need to scale them right in rom as if they are not scaled properly may that's why you getting actual knock???

[Colin Wiltshire]

Colin, regarding cable and Evoscan...:
1. You will need VAG-KKL cable (chipset FTDI 232), other VAG cable won't work. .

Looking at this one? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-VAG-KKL-409-1-USB-Cable-OBD-2-II-OBD-409-COM-VW-Audi-Seat-Skoda-in-UK-/321430329047?pt=UK_Diagnostic_Tools_Equipment&hash=item4ad6bd96d7

This is the 1 I got. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370972044686?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

[Colin Wiltshire]

Thanks for all the help so far, I'm feeling a trip to Eurospec maybe in order soon. But lets see if we can get Evoscan to work 1st.

[Nick Mann]

Evoscan will show knock, I am sure. Disconnecting the knock sensor stops the cel indication.

[Colin Wiltshire]

Still standard injectors. But it almost behaved it's self today, the cel light only came on 4 times in total, and I was trying to get it to come on, different driving styles from flat out to granny driving and all in between. The only times it did come on today was when on cruise.
Enjoyed the drive home a lot more today.

[carfanatic]

Jeez, what a lot of info to wade through. I know sod all about Engines and metal bits, but I do know Route Cause analysis. May I suggestyou make up a checklist in an Excel spreadsheet, list them and then group where you can such as FTDI (whatever the F*** that is) and then prioritise either in order of ease such as checking the Mounts or in order of risk, such as a catastrophic G Box failure. All I would ask is, was there was a knock before the engine change/improvements sounds like a no? so risk evaluation would suggest look elsewhere. Hope this helps.

"Every body ( & Everything) continues in its state of rest, or of uniform motion in a right line, unless it is compelled to change that state by forces impressed upon it."