Complete brake failure...........eeeek!

[Davezj]

Hi All,
long story short i suffered complete brake failure.

the good points are, no accident, no one was hurt. If i had not been in scotland on holiday i would have been at japfest II doing 100mph into redgate and not coming out the other end in one piece so that is a bonus.

The problem,
currently i am up in scotland on holiday failure occured just as we arrived at the holiday house on saturday evening. to late to get it to a garage, nowhere open till monday.

the failure is, brake fluid leaking, it is on the rear left side and it is dripping from the rear subframe where the lower arm attaches to the subframe.
unfortunately i believe there is one solid pipe from the bias/splitter valve at the front right through to the flexible pipe to the caliper at the back. so i think i will have to replace the entire thing, but i don't have the parts or the tools to do it myself at the moment as i am on holiday, with only a small socket set and set of spanners.

As i see it i have the following options,

1. do a temp fix buy cutting a section out and fitting a new piece of pipe with a compression union on each end.

2. do a temp fix and get a garage to make up a temp rough fitted brake line from front to back and then replace with a mitsi part probably shipped in from japan.

3. get a brake pipe from a braker car and use that.

4.A N other option.

what do you think?

any ideas welcome, until i get it fixed i a a bit stuck in the holiday house and it is a bit remote in Strachur on Loch Fyne oposite side of loch to Inveraray.

[giblet]

Uh oh, like you say its very lucky that you were on Holiday and not on track. Given the amount of fellow club members up that way hopefully there will be someone who can recommend a garage for you to use.

[crazydriver81]

I guess you have checked the rubber brake hose already? Or do you have braided hoses already? I would cut the defect section of the metal pipe, re-flare it and reconnect the brake hose so that you can use the car again. Replace the whole one piece pipe from brake bias valve to rear wheel, this will be a rela PITA job with removing at least the fuel tank from the car.

Have you thought of asking a mobile hydraulics service to cut and re-flare the brake pipe? In Germany it's common for these guys to have a mobile service, going to the customers.

By the way, I was always told our cars have a 2-circle brake system. This should be to prevent a full failure if one leak occurs. If you had a full failure, I assume you have lost nearly complete brake fluid`?

[Davezj]

The brakes did such a good job of still working when they initiall sprung a leak, I ended up pumping out all the brake fluid from the reservoir and only then did the peddle go to the floor, so there is no fluid pressure to push on the good side of the braking circuit which is why they failed completely.
When I was driving the brake peddle travel was getting a bit longer everytime I pressed them but I did not realise that leaking brake fluid was the cause. It was not a dramatic fail, but where I got to the holiday house I put the brakes on to stop and the car didn't. So first gear, handbrake and hope happened. Not the he other 2 passengers in the car noticed anything was wrong. So I must have done something right.
Oh well there is not a lot I car do apart from get to a garage tomorrow and see if they can cut and rejoin the pipe.

[adaxo]

You lucky, very lucky. Pipes come from dealer not pre bend so the best bet is to go to little shop in Whalley range and owner will cut and flare copper pipe for you for few quid, fitting them will be pita job. Now you need to temporary fix it locally, hope you will understand what they say :-)

[Chris.W]

I judt replaced these on my mates leggie. Managed to make a one pice pipe from front to rear without removing anything. Was a bit of a pain but not to stressful. I thought even if you took it to mitsi they would just make up a pipe from copper tubing. Obviously you want as few joints as possible to reduce leak potential but fashioning a new "section" of pipe is perfectly acceptable as long as it's not like a pidely wee 6inch section.

[Atik]

Wow, you are lucky Dave. I had a similar thing on mine on track at the 10th meet! Lucky the brakes broke on the long straight. I had the exact same pedal feel too where the brakes did just enough to come to a stop with pumping the pedal!

I'd suggest try a temp fix and cut out the bad section and fix a temp middle section and nurse it home from the holiday.

[WOODY72]

Make enquiries as to where local garages are, then, A, ring around or B, get a taxi to see if somebody can make one up and fit it, most garages can do that and it doesn't take long. Permanent fix!

[Gly]

ignore me stupid/unsafe idea...

do as atik says, temp fix till you can replace the whole lot, id look at the other side too if ones gone, the other will soon follow, replace both when your home,

[Atik]

When mine broke, I drove 15 miles back home without any brakes /pan
Just kept a good distance between anything in front and utilised engine braking and the handbrake to maximum effect. Plus it being around 6pm and driving the M6 Toll which had almost no traffic helped.
Would not recommend you do that for the distance you have to home though /lol

[SGHOM]

Could have been worse Dave......... at least you didn't have a brembo caliper tie wrapped on !!
Not that I would ever do that ;)

[Davezj]

bit of an uptade,
i took it to a local garage, and they are quite busy so they cant do it until tomorrow or wednesday. they are going to make a pipe up as a temp fix for me and join it to the pipe running down the middle of the car to be able to get reasonable access to it then run it all the way to the fix pipe in the wheel arch. so there is only one joint in the pipe. which i thought was the best idea. then i will replace the pipe from front to back in one piece.

is coopper an acceptable material to make brake pipe out of?
is there some issue with fatigue and cracking with copper pipe, or is it OK to use as long as it is tied to the chassis securely.

i have an MOT coming up in early september so i will have to get it sorted for then. it should be an interesting experience. i have never run new backe lines before, but there is always a first for everything.

[Nick Mann]

Copper pipe should be better than steel. It takes a LOT longer to corrode and is less prone to cracking. It's strength is usually lower, so you have to be more careful about kinking it or twisting it. It is a lot more expensive than steel otherwise I would imagine that it would be used a lot more in OE applications.

[adaxo]

Copper line is perfectly fine, MOT acceptable. As I mention earlier there is shop near you for doing new pipes and flare it. Look there is my old thread (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?43367-Good-place-to-fix-replace-brake-pipes-in-Manchester)about it, let me know when you back and need transport, i will be happy to help while your car is up on stands without brake pipes.

[Davezj]

i suppose another temp fix option would be to blank off the failed pipe and live with the spongy brake peddle for a day or so while you get it fiwed properly.

[Davezj]

Copper line is perfectly fine, MOT acceptable. As I mention earlier there is shop near you for doing new pipes and flare it. Look there is my old thread (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?43367-Good-place-to-fix-replace-brake-pipes-in-Manchester)about it, let me know when you back and need transport, i will be happy to help while your car is up on stands without brake pipes.

cheers mate most appreciated.

[Davezj]

Copper pipe should be better than steel. It takes a LOT longer to corrode and is less prone to cracking. It's strength is usually lower, so you have to be more careful about kinking it or twisting it. It is a lot more expensive than steel otherwise I would imagine that it would be used a lot more in OE applications.

cheers nick

[giblet]

When my nsr pipe sprung a leak in the same area as yours on my first VR4 I suffered a similar fun incident of brake failure. The garage I took it to made up a new pipe using copper and it was perfectly fine. Stood up to plenty of use.

[Confused]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with replacing with copper - even with joints, so long as they are properly flared/tightened, then you should notice absolutely no difference whatsoever. Manufacturers use steel for brake pipes because it is cheaper than copper, it's not necessarily that copper is worse.

My rear brake hard lines were corroding a couple of years back, so I chopped the bits that go up and over the tank, and joined them further forward, and just ran the new copper lines round the side of the tank and to the rear wheels.

Oh yeah, my point was that whatever gets done now doesn't need to be seen as a "temporary fix", it will be perfectly fine. Of course if you wanted to remove the join, then you can go the effort of replacing otherwise good pipe all the way back to the front... ;)

[Davezj]

cheers guys that is brilliant info, i will take it on board.

[Chris.W]

Yeah copper or copper/zinc, whatever it is they put in it these days is more than acceptable for the mot. I have used it on every vehicle I have repaired for mot.
Motor factors like halfrauds and such sell it in 25 foot reels as brake repair or replacement consumables along with the required male and female unions.
If you were closer to me (not the 177mile google maps says), I would have suggested popping round to mine and get your car up on the ramp to sort it all out.

[Davezj]

thanks for the offer mate much appreciated.

the weather is now fab and i went fishing yesterday evening in the loch and had to fight them off. so the i am happy to stay around here and relax. i might send the others off in there car to get them out for the day and then i can go for a walk, do a bit more fishing, go to the local shop and buy more scotch pies in more varieties than you can shake a stick at. so i have time to enjoy them.

[Davezj]

got a phone call about an hour ago and apicked the car up, they replaced the brake line from the middle of the car all the way back to the flex hose in the wheel arch. did a temp fix up and cable tied everything in place. this will do until i get home. they did say it was just corrosion on the pipe that made it fail. so i will be replacing both pipes right from the front of the car to the rear, i will also be checking the front pipes for corrosion as well just to be on the safe side.

so all in all not a too pain full experience oh and a big thank to the guys at strachur garage for doing the work. i know they are not on here, but anyone gets stuck in strachur and need to get some work done, they are a very helpful and nice pair of chaps.

[crazydriver81]

Glad you got it sorted for now Dave. Now the "real" holiday can start. ;)

[Confused]

The bits going up to the front are the difficult/fiddly bits - which is why I left mine, as they get less crap thrown over them than the rear part does.