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View Full Version : 6A13TT Intake plenum, aftermarket?



individual
11-11-2014, 09:13 AM
SO I've been looking around for the last 4 or 5 months and failed to find much after market stuff for our 8G vr4's (I'm sure a frustration almost everyone here has).
Specifically, a different air intake plenum, to make servicing spark plugs a 2 minute job instead of an hour job, replace lifters easily etc, more accessibility.

I've been looking into making my own, read up about the affect of the length of the runs, the basic shape and volume of the plenum itself to avoid that pressure wave phenomenon, and I've come up with a design like this.
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This is only a rough as i took a tape measure to an installed engine, but it should be feasible and able to clear everything.
If I was to make this (I work for a manufacturing company) or something similar once i have all the dimensions, Would anyone else be keen?

adaxo
11-11-2014, 09:44 AM
I think Davezj planning to have a go with making plenum, all depends on cost of final product me think, lots of us would love to have this.

Davezj
11-11-2014, 09:57 AM
Are you replacing the plenum chamber and the inlet manifold?
It looks like you are trying to do this, if so it is much, much, more work than just replacing the plenum on it's own.
I did quite a bit of research on the subject a good few months ago, and you have to really careful you get you non turbo and turbo info separated as the theory is completely different.

I looked into doing a mock up in plastic to do a test fit and possible final solution deepening on strength and heat resistance.

But space got the better of me and I lost interest as I now have other issues to sort out before I tackle anything new.

One of the issues is space, you would really need to remove the original air box and MAF to make it fit, so a MAP sensor conversion would be needed really just for space.

CANDEE
11-11-2014, 10:00 AM
Adam.Findlay is looking into this atm.

individual
11-11-2014, 10:43 AM
One of the issues is space, you would really need to remove the original air box and MAF to make it fit, so a MAP sensor conversion would be needed really just for space.

Spot on. This would be part of a bunch of mods needed, custom hard piping one of them.
I'm doing flow simulation at the moment and it's looking promising at atmospheric pressure & at 14.7psi (1 bar)

Adam.Findlay
11-11-2014, 11:44 AM
Yep you will want to make the upper half of the plenum a seperate piece or how else will you get spanners/sockets down into the V of the engine to fasten it down properly.
The easiest way would be to design a plenum chamber which bolts onto the standard lower runners. and just manually port the stock runners to match the heads (you could even put bellmouths/velocity stacks ontop of the stock runners to promote airflow).
the reason for this is the standard lower runners have a channel to evenly distribute air to all cylinders from the powersteering idle up valve. that channel also distributes PCV gasses.

Davezj you definatly DO NOT need to remove the MAF for space constraints. the easier option would be to just reverse the intercooler piping so the pre intercooler charge is pushed from the turbos toward the passenger side of the car, through the intercooler and back up the drivers side and then just have the new plenum have the Throttle body on the cambelt side of the engine. this reduces intercooler piping length and stops the IC piping having to run all the way across a hot engine.

Anyway as CANDEE said I am in the middle of making a plenum myself however I am modifying the lower runners, however I am only doing this because I have to for the runners to fit my MiVEC cylinder heads.

I don't have any CAD files but I plan to make the upper half of the plenum look much the same as this LS1 example
https://eb9239d2b3c1bda1d53d-6b4eb896915f5ae433f1eefb2b932a4d.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.c om/300-126.jpg

Plenty of plenum chamber volume. large throttle body sitting in the vee of the cambelt.
as for the lower half it will be the standard runners cut up and modified then welded onto a plate which the top half will bolt down to, on this plate will have mounts for the fuel rails, Velocity stacks and a sealant groove.
similar to this
http://users.vermontel.net/~dcma/V6Swap/V6ITB2.jpg
another example of 2pc plenum
http://www.mirrorfinishpolishing.com/PICTURES/POLISHING-PARTS/FULL-SIZE-PHOTOS/INTAKE-MANIFOLDS/CHROME-LIKE-POLISHING-INTAKE-MANIFOLD-672.JPG


here are some pics of the chopped up lower runners I have so far sitting in place (pardon the picture quality as they were actually quick snaps of my turbo manifold but you get the point)
I have removed the PCV and PS idle up channel from it as I had to to split them apart to fit the mivec heads, this is not an issue for me as I will be running an aftermarket ECU and emissions is not an issue here.
http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv297/Adam-Findlay/20141007_181218.jpg (http://s693.photobucket.com/user/Adam-Findlay/media/20141007_181218.jpg.html)
http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv297/Adam-Findlay/20141007_181254.jpg (http://s693.photobucket.com/user/Adam-Findlay/media/20141007_181254.jpg.html)

individual
11-11-2014, 01:12 PM
Cheers, Adam :) This is just a prototype, when ive got the dynamics sorted and real measurements i'll focus on making it user friendly to install, until then (also because the software is very picky) i'll leave it as one solid lump lol. Having it connect in several peices will be the easy part so that comes last :)

PS I'll have to change my model slightly anyway, the throttle body opening needs to be bent down somewhat, like that LS1 example so it throws more air to the back, as is the flow is decreasing 7% from the nearest to furthest cylinder.

PPS noticed the old school verniers on the ground in that last photo :P I've got a set of mititoyo digitals and I dunno about you but best investment I've ever made :P

Davezj
11-11-2014, 02:51 PM
Nice info Adam, I had not thought of reversing the flow.
I can see why you have done it, you have a very big turbo in the way.
An interesting way of doing it.
You have sparked my thought process off in another direction, not necessarily reversing the flow but different.

individual
12-11-2014, 01:09 AM
As is, it's not doing to badly, but it's a bit wonky for the first 20 iterations, it smooths out after that.
This is just checking flow, not pressure or volume yet
70487

Adam.Findlay
12-11-2014, 10:45 AM
Sweet just putting in my 2c on the issues I have run into.
look forward to seeing a result. the stock intakes are fuc**ng rubbish some good horsepower to be had in a properly designed one.

individual
13-11-2014, 02:09 AM
Did some flow testing on a basic mock up of the factory manifold, they like boost more than NA lol, turbo's cars seem to be more forgiving in terms of intake design, as there air is all forced in anyway, its not relying purely on flow.
I'm just trying to find some runners to buy and measure, but not much luck atm. Don't want to take apart my daily if i can help it lol

individual
13-11-2014, 02:20 AM
When I make a design, depending how complicated some of the curves are, I'll make a negative solid (internal space) in several peices, to fit together after, leave them .2mm oversize, get them 3d printed, smooth it out and then wrap them in of carbon fiber, minus the throttle body mount and block mounts which will be easy enough to CNC out of 6061 or similar ally.

rajvr497
13-11-2014, 04:10 AM
Can't wait to see the outcome guys,hope soon...

jungle
22-01-2015, 02:54 PM
Any movement on this?

dutch driver
31-01-2015, 09:55 PM
what kind of throttle body you whant to use?
how much MM?

individual
19-03-2015, 05:44 AM
no further work done yet, most of my time and money is been spent on getting my legnum back on the road after a drivetrain/engine faliure unfortunately lol

Adam.Findlay
17-10-2015, 11:45 AM
Any progress individual ?

I'm part way through making one myself but still using the stock lower half plenum as its too much work to merit making flanges with non-perpendicular bolt holes and injector bosses with fuel rail mounts to replace it

my design uses a spacer to raise the level of the stock lower half up high enough to clear the fuel rails to get a decent width for good plenum volume. this spacer lofts the ports from the stock 1476mm^2 square port to a 43mm ID (1452mm^2) round port to which I attach short 45degree bends to canter lever the ports away from eachother enough so that I can fit short ramtubes/bellmouths on the ends.
The plenum shell itself is a flat sheet of 3mm thick alloy pressed into shape in a hydraulic press.

hood clearance is the main issue, I feel I will have to sacrifice some plenum volume to allow my hood to shut properly.

photos speak 1000 words so here you go. also more detail on my OZVR4 build thread post #223
http://www.ozvr4.com/threads/adams-99-facelift-legnum-mivec.13822/page-12

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FLPGACITUA
20-10-2015, 10:59 AM
This is the sort of thing i have been looking for. I almost feel like we should have some sort of donation system to help with development of things like this. Maybe i've gone wacky. But the aftermarket options are almost NILL!
Please keep up the good work guys. Highly appreciated

Adam.Findlay
20-10-2015, 11:58 AM
Donations are more that welcome /yes /yes
If the prototype turns out well i might make 1 or two more.

Colin Wiltshire
20-10-2015, 08:16 PM
Donations are more that welcome ��
If the prototype turns out well i might make 1 or two more.

I'd be happy to send a donation to help this

Davezj
20-10-2015, 10:58 PM
adam i have a question for you about the design of you plenum.
this just an observation not a criticism, please don't take it the wrong way, i love the work you do and the fact you are happy to share your experiences.

ok to the question,
how are you going to fix the 2 piece shaped metal hood that you have formed to the flat oval piece that you bolt to the top of the inlet manifold.
if you are going to weld it into one solid piece, it raises the question how are you going to get a spanner on the bolts to do them up so it will bolt down to the inlet manifold.

the reason i ask this is because i have gone through the design process (and i say just the design process, never built) for a mid mounted plenum which turned out quite similar to what you are proposing to do. The biggest issue to overcome for me was how to bolt it down to the inlet manifold.
if i used a flat plate on the bottom i could not see how i could bolt it down without having some sort of removable lid on the top of the plenum to access the bolts to bolt it to the inlet manifold, or if i made it as a fully enclosed top and flat plate on the bottom for strength, i would have to make a small stand off under the flat plate and effectively extend the runners out the bottom of the flat plate and fit a flange on the end of the runners so it can be bolted to the inlet manifold form the outside of the assembly.

but that was just me and my design thoughts, just thought should share.

the other option i have seen made a vr4 engine is a kind of flat oval doughnut shape (jam filled, not ring) that was bolted through the top, right through the full depth of the plenum. but i didn't like that idea just because it limited the height/volume of the plenum.

CANDEE
21-10-2015, 12:22 AM
Dave,

If you actually look at the design he has a spacer that will sit on the factory lower half sits with the lower plenum plate on top of that. That will bolt to the lower plenum with the factory holes.

From there he has the shell which will be removable on the top of that(think the two will be bolted together). This will allow it to be removable if required.

Adam.Findlay
21-10-2015, 12:39 AM
As jeremy said the shell will bolt onto the base. See my ozvr4 thread for more detail

rajvr497
21-10-2015, 05:35 AM
great work adam....
here is some pics of my intake setup isn't finish yet tho.736627366373664

Davezj
21-10-2015, 10:34 AM
As jeremy said the shell will bolt onto the base. See my ozvr4 thread for more detail

Oh I see, I was looking at the pictures posted up I this thread and there was not option for bolting the top formed piece to the lower oval plate.
Glad you have considered this.
I will take a look at your ozvr4 thread to see how you have done it.

Adam.Findlay
21-10-2015, 11:35 AM
I'd be happy to send a donation to help this

Ill see how the first one turns out. if its not too laborious I will replicate a few more to sell.
I have already done the CAD drawings and sorted out laser and waterjet cutting. the main time consuming factor is pressing the plenum shells out then the hours and hours trimming and shaping them to fit the bases as the plenum shell die is originally for a 4cyl engine so its too long.
Also If I were to make some to sell Id do them with a stock 68mm (FL Auto) throttle body flange so people can retain the stock TB as it his the Idle control stepper built in.



Oh I see, I was looking at the pictures posted up I this thread and there was not option for bolting the top formed piece to the lower oval plate.
Glad you have considered this.
I will take a look at your ozvr4 thread to see how you have done it.

yeah images posted here were not the final design. basicly is what you see here with a 20mm wide flange lip around the edge for bolt holes to secure the shell to the base

Davezj
21-10-2015, 01:17 PM
That will probably work with some sort of gasket, I can recommend silicone bakeware for the initial prototype, it works well especially 20mm wide. You should be able to find a baking sheet which is big enough for about £5 and cut to size.

Are you thinking of welding a thicker flange on the bottom of the shell or attempting to make a fold in the edge of the shell.

If you go with a thicker flange it would be possible to make it a be more robust so it stay flatter to make the air tight seal easier when bolting it up, but it would mean a lot of welding and waste material from the cutting of the flange, especially if the flange is say 5mm thick.

Look forward to seeing how you do it. There so many different ways of doing it.

Adam.Findlay
19-03-2017, 08:34 AM
Few Progress shots of what Ive been up to with my intake manifold.
a fair bit of machine work gone into it so far. still a while to go. for those intrested in following it more my build thread on OZVR4 has much more detail

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vladimir
19-03-2017, 09:09 AM
Probably gold will ... very time consuming work

vladimir
19-03-2017, 09:14 AM
Coil ignition coils from Colt are very nice fit, and they are not so big

Adam.Findlay
19-03-2017, 09:18 AM
these are an aftermarket coil which I again have made custom alloy brackets for. much better than stock colt coils.

swinks
22-03-2017, 05:56 PM
Considering vr4 cylinder capacity and max potential boost running in application... Colt coilpacks are more than sufficient for COP setup.

Adam.Findlay
24-03-2017, 11:16 PM
for a stock engine maybe yes. but my engine is pretty far from stock. stock colt coils definatly will not suffice in my situation. regardless, coils is a topic for another thread

Adam.Findlay
26-03-2017, 05:52 AM
Few more progress shots

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