Engine Strength

[Il Dottore]

Does anyone feel the need to clear up the confusion around the strength of the VR4 Rods and Pistons ??

I'd like to know before I even think about an ECU or Boost Controller....

Please don't mention the post by MOTEC Mick from the VR4 Forum....I really don't believe that esp as he was selling an upgrade in the same post.

Ta,

Doc.

[chris g]

I posted details on the MLR VR-4 Forum of my enquiries about tuning the VR-4

But to recap - visited Power Engineering about overboost chip and associated things

We then had discussion about exactly which kit I wanted fitting

They spoke to Toney at Xtreme about suitable equipment for VR-4 and the boost tolerated by VR-4 came up

Toney stated, as reported by Power Engineering staff, that
VR-4 boost is normally around 0.5-0.6 bar and does not like to be taken above 0.8 bar if I remember correctly

You can believe this or not - what we need is some poor bugger to push boost up until the engine self-destructs - then we know the limit

Or we try to push boost up gradually but do we settle for a modest figure or keep edging up the boost until.....bang

Of course it takes extra money and equipment to try to control all aspects of engine performance - AFR - intercooler - ECU - boost contoller - bigger injectors - forged pistons - water injection etc to limit risk at higher boost

Hoiw much do we spend to test the potential/absolute limits of the engine? your engine?

Would we ever know in upping boost how close we were to engine going bang

We may get to ? 0.9 bar and seemingly OK and it may be for ages but one day, perhaps without any malfunction it goes bang because it is at the limit and has been at limit for too long - it needed other parts upgrading to cope indefinitely!

But even at a lower boost, one day a fuel shortage, excess heat, over revving and bang

If I am going to increase boost I would want to limit risk as best I could

So change induction/exhaust/add AFR control/upgrade intercooler/overboost chip etc - see what happens

Then think about forged pistons/rods/bigger injectors/water injection

I would want to err on side of caution but if I had money putting in better internals - forged pistons/rods would be an investment to protect your engine NOW from the hard work you may put it through

Depends how much of a hard charger you are

If you can control ALL the power the VR-4 is throwing out then go for bigger boost but I am going for modest boost/better breathing with much more emphasis on improved braking/suspension

Get better suspension/braking before massive power

Chris Griffiths

[BraindG]

the thing is though.. ok im not going to chance my luck, but do we actually know this? or is this just "hear-say"? i mean is that coming from experience? heard it through the grape vine?

seeing as im planning upgrading this year INSERT INTO post VALUES (water inj, possibly ecu replacement) i would like to have some solid facts..

anyone know someone who may have taken a VR-4 engine apart? seen the guts of it?

Barry - keeping fingers crossed

[chris g]

How the VR-4 dislikes/struggles/goes off/blows up with higher boost is unclear,if it does at all.

But the statement comes from, as I believe, someone with Misubishi turbo knowledge - Toney at Xtreme

His source may not be 100% - check it out if you want to be clear

MoTech Mick may have been exaggerating or lying - was he saying what he did just to push the pistons/rods upgrade

Each of us has to decide but one thing is still certain, for me, to upgrade a turbo and really push boost limits, you do need an internals upgrade - forged pistons etc to go for lower compression and much higher boost/power output

When do you trust the opinion of an engineer/technician/mechanic?

You counts yer money and makes yer choice!

Chris

[BraindG]

yup, i agree with you..
just wish we had some more knowledge available, past experiences etc..

however, im sure with the birth of this site, we will either a: learn our selves b: have someone join who has done these modifications c: some poor soul whos engine blew...

I wont be taking the risk, thats for sure..

[zentac]

Yeah but Motec Mick works for extreme as well so Toney`s reliable source was probably Mick!

[chris g]

I have not said that Toney's source was reliable only that he works with Mitsubishi 's

Mick as I understand it is MoTec ECU specialist

Perhaps I have got this all wrong but WGAF

The motor trade has been telling us **** for decades

You go with who YOU have confidence and feel comfortable with even if you are paying an arm and a leg!

As there are so few VR-4's in UK and pethaps even fewer that have been tuned never mind highly tuned, there will probably be nobody who can give detailed facts or personal or expert opinion that some of you/us will trust

We may never get a definitive fact about VR-4 tuning possibilities as nobody this side of the Mitsubishi R & D knows its limits

You have to decide who to trust

Dealers have always had mixed motives when talking about cars, mods etc - they want you to buy their product - so questionning a paricular message is Ok but getting close to impugning someones reputation is dodgy

Get yer money out, pay for modifications and tell us when it goes bang!

So we know what not to do!

It's as simple as that

Chris

[zentac]

Well the engine only cost me £1500 so thats exactly what I intend to do ;)

Heres a rough idea of how Im going to do it.

Uprated internals £1500

550 injectors (http://www.extremepsi.com/x/customer/product.php?productid=16227&cat=338&PHPSESSID=9b2bee6ccb9e76bc07b0bbf640b8c205) as the standard 6A13TT only has 390cc injectors. £300

2 x 14b Turbos with adaptor plates (http://www.just-performance.com/products/pre-order.htm) £1000 May eventually go larger.

255LPH fuel pump (http://www.road-race.com) £100

Complete exhaust inc manifold & Downpipes (http://www.haywardandscott.co.uk) £1200

Motec ECU £1500 setup

That should see me to 400 I hope :)

[BraindG]

:eek: memememememe, lend us some cash! :)

[Il Dottore]

What about insurance???

Who are you with?

Doc.

[BraindG]

if he can afford those mods, im sure he can afford the insurance..

dont suppose you work in IT ? :D

[zentac]

At the moment Im with AON the FTO Owners club gets a nice discount with them, and Im using the car as a show/track car, wont go on the road too much.

Remember its an FTO with a VR4 engine in....

Im selling my 1990 INSERT INTO post VALUES (low mileage) VR4 to fund some of this, and Ive just started a new Job and got £6k golden handshake. So I guess thats all going on the car.

This is a long term project, it wont be finished this year. Im still having a few problems getting the engine in :INSERT INTO post VALUES (

[Brind]

Which size VR-4 engine are you using zentac?
You lost me with the engine code.
Is it the old 2litre or the latest 2.5?

[Il Dottore]

6A13TT is the 2.5 VR4 engine. The old galant has the 4G63 INSERT INTO post VALUES (EVO) 2.0 engine.

Doc.

[Brind]

Oh right thanks.
Does the standard 2.5 V6 Galant have the same engine code as the VR-4 without the TT on the end, or is the standard Galant engine completely different?

[Il Dottore]

2.5 V6 Sport Engine = 6A13
2.0 GLS Engine = 4G63

[Brind]

So presumably many engine parts can be replaced without the need of an actual VR-4 engine then.

[Il Dottore]

One would imagine so....but I am not confident enough to give a reply !!!

Perhaps we should tell Black Knight form the MLR about us. He is really helpful.

Doc.

[calum]

Boost does not kill engines - detonation does.

I really question the motive behind the 'buy this 'cos your rods are crap' post. Most cars can put up with an additional 50-100% power on stock internals - why would this one be any different?

What I saw from a pic associated with the post was a melted piston due to det. The guy had turned the boost up and nothing else. However, when the engine was taken apart, suddenly the rods are crap? So if the rods are crap, how come they were OK when the piston was wasted through detonation?

If there's no det there's no problem - my opinion.

With regards to bigger injectors - remember that 4 x 550cc is LESS than 6 x 390cc. I know you'll have six, but just thought I'd point this out. There are plenty cars out there making 350-400bhp on 4 x 550cc injectors.

Calum

[EdmundVR4]

550 injectors as the standard 6A13TT only has 390cc injectors. £300
I have been told that my VR4 has 265cc Injectors. Do you guys know that the 3000GT VR4 in the US comes with 360cc Injectors ? Why would Mitsubishi use larger injectors on a smaller engine ?

Check Pros Engineering's website INSERT INTO post VALUES (http://www.diana.dti.ne.jp/~carplus/); use Babelfish Translation INSERT INTO post VALUES ( http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr) and explore the "event" link on the menu and load up :
02 Tokyo Auto Salon
and/ or
02 Fukuoka Auto Salon
This will show you what the Japanese have done to their VR4's.
Pretty impressive !
Ed

[Gssplaya]

hmm 265cc? thats even lower than the stock injectors of my 6a12TT which are 275cc each.Im sure you're 6a13TT has higher flowing injectors or at least equal to mine.

Next time when your injectors are off the car, you can read the flow rate since they are written on the injectors :) Just look for the this: "ML-INSERT INTO post VALUES (number)" INSERT INTO post VALUES (not sure about the ML tho, but it does definitely start with an M) Its usually written on the colored side of the injectors where the power connectors are, its pretty small. The value listed is the Theoretical flow rate of the injector. :)

As for bigger injectors, i think you need at least an SAFC to control them as to keep them from drowning the engine with gas?

Im eyeing the injectors from a 4g63T as these are 450cc each and more available from the used surplus yard here hehe :)

Stock Evo injectors are 550cc each i think..

Additonal observations:
6a12 MIVEC injectors are 182cc each and have light yellow tops
6a12TT injectors are 275cc each and have red tops

4g63T injectors are the most varied.
The most sought after are the Blue topped ones? INSERT INTO post VALUES (not sure about the color) from the 4g63T of the evo since rumor has it that they flow 550cc each :P

Other 4g63T injectors are from the Eclipse and the Ancestral VR-4. Not sure about their colors but ive heard that they flow from 360-450cc depending on vehicle the 4g63T came from which may be the RvRINSERT INTO post VALUES (uses a detuned 4g63t evo engine); Eclipse GST/ GsX, Galant VR-4, Galant VR-4 RS.

Well these are just info and observations i got form hanging around the surplus yard around here :)

How to find out injector color: you have to unplug the socket of the connecting harness to the injector to expose the injector to see the true color. This is from my experience since I thought that 6a12 MIVEc injectors were 275cc since the connecting socket on the harness was red but when i yanked it out, i found out the injectors were colored light yellow :)

[EdmundVR4]

GSSPlaya, great to have your input.
Can anyone verify the stock injector size on the 6A13TT VR4 engine.
Thanks,
Ed

[-LegnumVR4-]

Stock boost on the 6a13 engine VR4 is 0.7bar INSERT INTO post VALUES (10psi).

Max boost on the 6a13 engine VR4 is 0.9bar INSERT INTO post VALUES (13psi)
Boost cut comes in just after that to protect the engine so u can't screw it.

More boost can be made when the ECU is exchange to get around the boost cut. I've seen as high as 1.1 - 1.3 bar boost levels on the Japanese VR-4's. I'm still finding out more info what happens to the engines/turbo's with high boost. I haven't read anything about new pistons, rods etc but don't take my word for it, still have to confirm as i found this website:

http://www.ys-mall.com/auto-mitsubishi-gtkiller-garant.htm

Going more than 13psi on the auto models can break their transmissions. Installing a ATF cooler seems to be what the Japanese guys do to fix this problem but i'm waiting to here what a tech guy in Japan says. The manual just goes through more clutches if driven really hard, that why most Japanese guys upgrade to a twin plate or more.

I've fitted a ATF cooler to my car before lifting the boost seening it's auto and have had no problems running 13psi. I do a 5000km engine oil change and use Mobil 1 synthetic oil.

As for injectors, the VR4's are meant to flow very well, haven't read anything about the Japanese exchanging them for larger ones.

[-LegnumVR4-]

The latest news i've heard from an engine builder is that the design of the internals is the same as the 4g63 besides that engine having 4cyl's in a row as to ours which has 3 then another lot behind them.

I'll get in contact with him and go over whats what.

[pjjohnson]

I've been running an auto with upped boost for 100,000 miles with no problems to the engine or transmission. For most of the time it has been on 1.1 bar with a burst of 1.2 bar available. The ECU did need some work to prevent fuel cut out. The only time I had a problem was after the water injection was fitted, and I was advised that the boost could be upped a notch, so it went up to 1.2, then 1.3 then 1.4 bar. This was on a track day, things were going very well until I had some fuel problems and the tips of the turbos melted. The car had done 40,000 miles with raised boost at this point. The turbos were replaced with new units, standard unfortunately, and the boost reset at 1.1 for every day use. I ran with 1.1 bar for another 50,000 miles without problems, but recently have had some stalling and fuelling issues which have meant that its been down to 1 bar for the last 10,000 miles. Stalling cured by newe dump valve. The transmission oil has been replaced frequently.

Pistons, con rods etc are still inside the engine and seem to working well. With the fuelling sorted I'm aiming to get it up to 1.2 for everyday use, and don't anticipate blowing it up.

Hope this helps.

[-LegnumVR4-]

Interesting info, when u say the ECU need some work to stop fuel cut, what was done? Is it just the overboost fuel cut overide thingy u have?

[pjjohnson]

Good question, don't know the answer !

The car was standard then I had the HKS air filter, exhaust and boost controller fitted altogether. It was done at the supplying dealership, specialist importers Park Lane in Hampshire. As far as I know nothing was done to the ECU and the car went really very well on 1.1 bar. It used to smack into the rev limiter in third, really take me by surprise over the last 2000 revs. It was much quicker than before.

The car was still speed limited, but then when I had it delimited it seemed have lost some performance. I eventually took it to TDI in Barking to get it sorted - they said I needed a fuel cut overider, so it I got an HKS FCD INSERT INTO post VALUES ( Fuel Cut Defensor ) and it buggered things up big style, it used to cut out when I floored it in 4th or 5th. So it went back into TDI for a few days. They sorted it, and said they had worked on the ECU. I don't know if I've still got the FCD or not, it was never visible. It cost me about £400 to get it sorted.

It could be my imagination but its never seemed to go as well as it did before it was delimited. Why, I don't know, but I blame the gearbox for everything !

[jaysback]

i see you have water injection.
did you have trouble with detonationINSERT INTO post VALUES (pinking) on hot days when the boost was turned up or was it a recomendation?

[pjjohnson]

Just a recomendation, to give further protection against detonation as boost was increased.

I don't know if I'd do it again because it doesn't seem to have any noticeable effect, and I had to have the pump replaced loads of times - it kept failing on me.

[jaysback]

when i had my orion turbo INSERT INTO post VALUES (dont laugh) i was looking at water inj. and there was a company near blackpool who had chipped it for me who also did a water inj system.
it was real cheap to do.
all they had was a small contol unit that took a temp reading from the intake temp @ the crossover pipe.
this then trigger a standard fuel pump.
and used a normal injector mounted just just infront of the throttle body.
the real trick was when they said to use methanol instead of water.
never got round to fitting it tho as i spent most of my time having to put gearboxes in it:INSERT INTO post VALUES (
p.s. i dont if the company that did this kit are still going.
turbo boost they were called.
did a top job on my orion.
was running 2 bar, falling back and holding 1.5bar boost.
INSERT INTO post VALUES (only on cooler days, had to turn it down a bit when it was warm tho:INSERT INTO post VALUES ( )

[FTOLTD]

just thought you guys might be interested,

I been running my engine INSERT INTO post VALUES (6A13 with garrett GT30 ) on 18 Lb boost and melted a piston whilst doing 250 Kms an hour under full boost, might have been when it hit the rev limiter or could have leaned out. But i suggest not running your motors at 18 Lb boost.

The injectors are 390cc it is stamped on the side of them.

will be sending one of the undamaged pistons and rods away to get forged ones made, anyone interested let me know.

[zedy1]

how much would it cost and let me know if you could get hold off some valves and head gasket set.

[EdmundVR4]

Was the melted piston on the rear bank of cylinders ?
Why I ask ? I have melted pistons on the rear bank of cylinders on two different 6A12 TT engines ? I was wondering if there is any correlation as they are in the same engine family. I think the stock downpipes are poorly designed and the front bank runs rich & the rear bank runs lean when boosting much higher than stock. i have upgraded my downpipes and am using the design from Pros Engineering.
Thanks for the info & keep it coming !
Ed

[-LegnumVR4-]

How did u fine the front pipe exchange, make much of a difference?

What did it set u back?

[zentac]

What size are your new downpipes ?

Ive just had a set made up and the exhaust place thought wach downpipe should be 2.5inch, I thought that would be too large.

[EdmundVR4]

After installing the down pipe the boost seemed to rise a bit higher, indicating freer flow. I drove the car with the front pipe changed for about a month and then installed 3" pipe using mandrel bends and a free flow INSERT INTO post VALUES (straight through) muffler. Sounds great but too LOUD ! I've got to install a resonator and hope for the best. Again, boost level rose & I had to adjust my Apexi AVC-R down to avoid detonation. At least the turbos spool quicker and with less back pressure stress now. Feels better at high rpm.
After those exhaust upgrades I visited my tuner and we added a rising rate fuel pressure regulator and he did some fuel tuning with my Field SFC Hyper R & I'm happy to say that we are able to run higher boost INSERT INTO post VALUES (15-16psi) more safely. Before I could only get 11-13psi. The car feels quite strong now.
Tomorrow I go to the dragstrip....hope I get a new personal best with these upgrades.
Ed
PS The down pipe cost me US$480...2.5" down pipe into 3" collector with a 3" stainless steel flexible joint included.

[zedy1]

Originally posted by zentac
What size are your new downpipes ?

Ive just had a set made up and the exhaust place thought wach downpipe should be 2.5inch, I thought that would be too large.

how much did that cost you?

[zentac]

I had them made up by Flotech Exhausts in Bradford, they cost me £200 however they want some advertising when my car is finished so I imagine they would normally cost about £300.

[FTOLTD]

the piston that melted was on the front bank drivers side, i suspect it was because was running 2 extra injectors and possibly leaned out in that piston, am waiting for some 590cc injectors to arrive and will install them with surge tank and an extra fuel pump and extra fuel filter

[FTOLTD]

for those who are interested

the exhaust set up for single turbo i used was 1.5 inch manifold pipes collecting into 2 inch these then collected togeather at the turbo and have 3 inch dump pipe from turbo with full 3 inch stainless steel free flow exhaust with 1 resonator and 3 x 12 inch freeflow mufflers, works great and no problem with spool up and very little turbo lag.

Turbo will kick in around 3000 Rpm when you put your foot down, from standing start no noticable turbo lag.

[FTOLTD]

Originally posted by zedy1
how much would it cost and let me know if you could get hold off some valves and head gasket set.


Not sure on the exact cost yet untill they have a look at them then they will tell me if they match any thing they have on the shelves which could make them a little bit cheaper.

[zedy1]

theres no rush just take our time and let me know m8

[FTOLTD]

Originally posted by zedy1
theres no rush just take our time and let me know m8

the base price looks like it will be around 1500 pound for a set of 6 JE forged pistons and crower 4340 crome moly steel rods or pauter 4340 crome moly steel rods

also depends on how much have to pay in taxes and in shipping and the conversion rate

if there are a few people interested let me know might be able to get them a little cheaper if buy a bulk order.

can anyone let me know how this compares to prices for the same thing in the UK if you guys can get it cheaper let me know.

[zedy1]

dont think we could get hold of them in the uk are they identical to any other mitsi engine or the just for he 6a13. was considering to pull out abit of time to talk to my local engeneering firm if they could bor out my engine to a 3.0 ltr do you think this is possible. i also need some valves and head gasket set. what sorkt of gasket set your putting in is it standard or upgraded?

[FTOLTD]

i will use a standard engine gasket overhaul kit,

and will see what i can find out about the valves.

if you want pistons and rods let me know as soon as you can as it will take about 14 weeks for them to be made as they are very busy, spoke to them again yesterday and asked about ceramic coating the pistons top and side skirt and he said it was about 15 pound extra per piston.

I will be putting my order in very soon and if can get a few others might get a discount depends how many we get made.

[zentac]

That sounds quite expensive. Ive had a word with Mick (mailto:xtrememick@yahoo.co.uk) who has had some made up in the UK for the VR4 and see how much he can get them for....will let you know

[FTOLTD]

great

i also got a price from RPW and they quoted almost 2000 pounds for a set

Richard when you get the price can you please get the brand name of the piston and for the rods if the are A beam or I beam or H beam and they should be E4340 vacuum melt chrome moly forging- CNC Machined Heat-treated to Rockwell C36; full coverage shotpeened; end to end balanced in sets.

the piston should also come with set of rings and full floating gudgeon pin and piston available in 20 and 40 thou oversize. ask if they can do the ceramic coating to top of piston and side skirts of piston.

thanks mate