turbo manifolds for td04

[billybobboot]

As title says going td04. There seems to be a few options
1. Custom manifolds
2. 2 rear manifolds and weld on flange
3. Stock manifolds and weld on flange
4. Stock manifolds open hole and add flange

My question ignore the bolt holes can the stock manifold holes be opened up to be the same as the td04s then bolt holes or a plate added to bolt up td04s.
I dont need to worry about the oil filter as that has a relocation kit. My only issue ill have is keeping ac and fitting the fans in but will be using flush fans.
I have lathes ect so opening holes isnt a problem if its as simple as open the holes and make a plate ill go that way.

[Davezj]

Personally I am going down the stock manifold and cutting off the flanges and welding the new one for a TD04-13T

[wintertidenz]

Custom manifolds will give you a better power figure as the standard manifolds are crap log type ones.

[billybobboot]

Part of me wants to go new manifolds but at same time 7-800 for manifolds is then pushing the boundary of what the wife will let me spend without telling her its for manifolds as she knows these arnt needed to get the engine running. As ive so far got away with new turbos, engine, remap, front rad and new parts for oil relocation kit (where my oil pipe came off), new gauges and i have to bare in mind i have just spent 3 months ago 1500 on new clutch flywheel front lsd ayc rebuild brembo brakes new wheels and tyres fuel presh regulator fuel lines and a new radio. I did compensate her with a new ring but there is still only so far i can convince her i need. I did try the forge line but she soon went off that when i showed her how much rods and pistons were.

[billybobboot]

Another option would gto or 3000gt depending where it came from will the td04s from them bolt on? As i can get a hybrid turbo of gto turbo with subaru intake side. Just a thought as from pics i know the hole is bigger but it sill uses 3 close bolts rather than 2 close and 1 far away my other option is to re drill a hole in the subaru turbo as the hole seams a long way away from the bolts (i know its prob something to do with accsess on the scobby)

[Davezj]

my desision is cost driven, and becoase it has been done before with good results.

i am not after creating a dyno queen with the most power out of any one, i just want a bit more power at a resonalble cost, and some i can drive every day to work back.
and i think about £300-£400 all in if you are prepared to do all the cutting and welding youself is a resonable cost. that would be for turbos, flanages, replacement manifolds, pipework to weld up, oil and water line, inlet pipework.
i am expercting an extra 50-80 hp more than i have alredy.
if you pay someone to do all the fab you are probably looking at another £1000 on top of this due to the time involved in getting the dimentions correct.

[Chris.W]

My set up is custom manifolds with Td04's from a UK spec GTO (bigger tubs than jap spec bizarrely).
In my mind custom manifolds is the way forward, as said better flow. Plus with the added benefit of being warranted from the company that makes them.

[billybobboot]

Right if all goes ahead im thinking of going saab td04 15t the reason for this is the exhaust output might not be quite as flow efficient as the scooby one but it has a 3 point bolt on flat flange that i can just weld a 3inch 90deg pipe strait to and the get a flange the same as my down pipe and can then keep the rest legnum only the turbo to downpipe will be custom. I plan on leaving my shot engine in but taking rads out so i can get easy access to front turbo ill then leave the rear bolted up and make the turbo manifold and bolt on the turbo then build the downpipe adapeter. Ill then take it all out do build and put back in once all back in with front pipe bolted up this time then make adapter for the rear.
Need to do front while all in car as want to keep ac and stock rad fans but will go to slim if needed.

[billybobboot]

Ok turbo options i have 3-4
Best flow for our engines to keep good boost over all revs even low down are td04-15t
Close to these are td04L-15g these have a little less range but the range sits slightly higher up the power level.
The other option i have is td04hL-15g these are very close to the td04L15s but have a slightly higher power range but the range is bigger.
I can get a set of td04-15t for a 3000gt but dont come with the exhaust housing these are 80 each extra.
The td04L-15t are subaru fitment
The td04hL-15g are saab fit ment.
I know most people run for lower upgrade a subaru td04 13t not sure why as a td04L-15g give almost same low end but holds better high up anyways and most higher power run a td04L-19t but i have no map to compare the range of this against the td04hL-15g.
Anyways any help is good as the maps normaly only show for a single turbo not twin except the td04-15 3000gt ones.

Im planning on getting the actuators set at .5-.6 then run low boost at .8 and high at 1.1 as with my boost controler and ecu i can run 3 settings buy using the actuators as one.
As said the 3 closest maps are the td04-15t L-15t and hL-15g
Im not really happy with the 3000gt ones as to keep costs down for the twin they dond come with exhaust housings or adjustable actuators.
The otheres o can get in saab or subaru exhaust housings with 360 actuator and intake compressor rotation makes it easyer than making actuator brackets.
Anyways any thoughts?

[Davezj]

The td04 L H HL
Signify the size of the exhaust turbine wheel.
The G and T signify flat back or super back on the compressor wheel.

[billybobboot]

The gs seem to have a slight lower spool level and broader map as the ts are very here is your power
I know others have had good results from the L and hl
But just normal td04 seam to be a little low on puff at higher rpms. Prob is again most of the comparison is done on 4 cylinder 2 l not 3 cylinder 1.25
I know others at .7 bar with a td04hl 19t were making about 300 if im a little lower ill be happy as want my low boost around my current mid boost .
Im currently running 298 on .9 bar on stock cams
New engine will have cams done
I want around 350ish at fly or around 300 at wheels and ill be happy

[Davezj]

So you want to get bespoke manifold and dump pipes and inlet pipes made. At a cost of about £1000-£1500 to gain 50 hp?

Sorry forgot to mention you will need the turbos, oil pipe, water pipes, wastegate actuators, heat shields, on top of that price

[billybobboot]

I need new turbos anyways why not spend the same on somthing that later i can just remap and up boost if i want to with no restrictions as apart from silly boost with cams im at the td03 limit on 98 oct fuel

[billybobboot]

You also forget im building it so no labour makes it worth it

[Davezj]

350hp seems to be about the limit of the TD03 in all reality
foxdie swinks Nick Mann have all had over 340hp from the TD03 with a remap. i have just Dynoed mine and it is about 320ish without a remap.

so if you want to have 350hp and you are going to do cams then that should be achivable on TD03, and save loads of money.

[Davezj]

So you want to get bespoke manifold and dump pipes and inlet pipes made. At a cost of about £1000-£1500 to gain 50 hp?

Sorry forgot to mention you will need the turbos, oil pipe, water pipes, wastegate actuators, heat shields, on top of that price

i was refering to cost of parts price no labour included. there was a guy on here either SLX or @SAF69 that was going to do a TD04L-13T to TD04HL-19Tmanifold kit for about £1000.
but he has done all the hard work and already designed and built some for himself. but if you are going to use different turbos then you will have to pay some to do the fabrication and development costs.
unless you are going to design and build your own tubular manifold and dump pipes.

just trying to include all the costs involved, so you don't make a decition you will regret in the future.

[billybobboot]

I have 2 option on manifold mod stock or new custom.
My misses brother is seeing if he can make a td03 - saab t25-td04 adapter or ill take a saab td04-t25 adapter and cut the stock one off and weld new on an indutrial arc weld will hold stong but a bored out td03 - td04 t25 adapter will mean its all bolt on the only custom bit will be down pipe and intake pipes i already have braded oil and water lines fitted.
I just need to see if i need 2 rear manifolds or can stick with stock ones

[Davezj]

That sounds like a plan it should massively keep costs down.

[billybobboot]

I would live to keep the td03s but from my last remap she hit 231.4 wheels and 296 dead at fly, on the run she was running stock fuel pump and a semi broken fuel pressure regulator, the injectors were maxed at 98% the fuel pump couldn't pump anymore fuel that was on 99ron,

I know others are hitting around 320-350 but the turbos are maxed there only really good for 1-1.1bar

I also don't know what my plans are my last a rx7 fc turbo 2 I was running what I though was a happy power then went bit more and more till I was like oh ive maxed a turbo in a year.

while I have the chance I though I would do go td04 if I don't like it I have a spare set of manifolds and turbos to put back to stock or can sell turbos for something more

I was also looking at the td03 spool up my gragh shows my boost kicking in at 2k that just a low town speed useless.

I have found 1 bit of usefull ness the boys over with the starlets there is a god I know there 4 pot rather than 3 but they run td04l 13t and were hitting 220 at 1bar with spook at 2750-3000 max at 3500 this being so im still on motorway crousing speed so if a td04hl will be on sing at about 4 and spooling by 3250 im onto a winner, if your tacking a car how often do you sit at 3k??? its always betweek 4-6.5-7k + its will help keep the silly thing from trying to do 40 in a 30 in 3rd tap the accelerator and it just takes of I have a v6 I don't need a turbo on .5 at 2500rpm.

anyways this is why I going tdo4 a power be keep the dam thing easyer to drive in town as less boost will be in and the when need to can have some fun im hoping the cams and lightweight fly will compensate a little for the slightly later spool.

I know others are running td04hl 19t so I know the spool cant be that bad as they wouldn't still be running it + its cant be any worse than when I test drove a evo fq400 that was lag, the mr2 I had was spooling about 3500 and I loved that thing but that did give a big hit but was a gt turbo and greddy gts can be a bit on off.

[billybobboot]

im hoping if I can just make an adapter ill then try and get some one to copy my down pipes and just make a bolt on kit. will prob cost about £200 to make up £30 at worst for an adapter and 2 90deg bends 2 45deg bends and 2 saab exhaust flanges and some weling time.

[Davezj]

it would be much easier if you had a spare engine to mock it up on with spare downpipes so you know where the bottom flanges of the dump pipes need to be.
use the standard turbo maniflod and dump pipe on the rear then you can fit the down pipe to the rear standard sturbo setup. this will locate the front flange location correctly so you know stock downpipes will fit, which means all after market downpipes will fit also. so you can either buy thedown pipes or build your own.

plus if you ever want to sell the turbo kit it will fit any vr4 not just your with your down pipes.

well that is how i am going to it.

[billybobboot]

I will have a spare engine, im using upgraded down pipe from one of the guys who makes them on the forum, I need to do the front one in the car due to the radiator clearance on where the turbo sits as I don't wanna build it then find the rad is in the way the back will be built off the car once I know the front just bolts in,

ok last question will td04hl-19t be far to big for our engine, my last few options are,

1. td04hl-15g with saab
2. 3000gt td04 with 19t anti surge but need to then have same prob with the down pipe as an adapter will sit closer to the ac even if build a v band adapter
3. td04hl-19t with anti surge with saab fitment

1. this is my pref but cant get an anti surge housing for it which if I can get it might help at lower rpm as the bigger turbo might try to surge at slow speeds due to engine size

[Davezj]

one thing you need to consider is the TD04L has a CHRA (midle cartridge bit of the turbo) with a compressor wheel exducer diameter of 56mm.
i believe the TD04H and HL have a CHRA with a compressor wheel exducer of 58mm

if you want to upgrade to 19T compressor wheel it has an exducer diameter of 58mm so it will not fit a TD04L CHRA. you would have to get a hybrid 19T compresser wheel with a modified exducer diameter of 56mm or get the CHRA machined out to 58mm.

others that have said they have done the TD04 conversion and used the 19T compresser wheel have said it is a bit more laggy when building boost but it does flow more air and can build more boost at the top end. So it is a trade off if you want lower down power use a smaller compresser wheel 13T if you want more top end power and unltimately more power then go with the 19T compresser wheel. But you have to remeber even the TD04-13T will be flowing more air and giving more power higher in the rev range with a bit more lag than the TD03-7T that come with the VR4 as standard.
it all depends how far you want to go.

you can buy conversion kits for the TD04H or HL with smaller compressoer wheels to fit a 19T compressor wheel and housing plus wastegate actuator and oil lines for about £140 so you could go with the smaller compresser wheel to start with then if you find yourself wanting to upgrade again to 19T the there are kits to do it.

these are just my thoughts on the subject, there are much more learned people on here that have been there and done it already so they would be much better sources of infomation if they want to comment on the subject. and lets face it that is what these forums are for to get everyone giving there experiences and tips and trick to help out others.

[billybobboot]

Right the best option is a td04-13,15or19t that fits the 3000gt but do to getting hold of replacement exhaust housing outlet flanges im might have to go subaru td04L-13or15t as you can buy off the shelt v-band adapters that i can cut the band off and weld the pipe diectly to to try and keep the stock down pipes.
I can buy ready made 3000gt turbo to downpipe pipes but im not 100 sure of the angle the turbos will be sat at so not sure if these will work. As the subaru being v band i can weld a very tight 2.5 or 3 inch pipe to depending on size of the downpipes i have.
As far as manifolds go with the subaru or gt3000 im going to port out the stock manifolds ill the put a subaru plate on and will see if i can make new bolt holes to bolt it all up if not i have found a squatre playe thaswaps 3 bolt to subaru and will use that. If not ill just weld the new plate strait to the stock manifolds

[billybobboot]

Both turbos come as kits with full water and oil braded lines all gaskets and .5,.8 or 1 bar adjustable actuator with 360 deg adjustable actuator at 700 each there expencive but will do the job after looking stock td04s will spool at 3-3500 td04l will at 32-3800 and td04hl is at 4-5

[billybobboot]

quick question I can onlu find 1 3000gt exhaust housing im making custom brackets on the manifolds but can I use just the one housing for both front and rear or would I need the front and rear, I know it may sound silly but it cant be any different from using 1 Scooby housing for front and rear.

If I can use the 1 housing im going to take a big leep and order my turbos. and pray to god the adapters i ordered are right.

as I will be looking at stock front side housing for both running normal td04 with a 19t, this should give slight quicker spool over the Scooby ones but downside is its a 19t rather than 15t but im getting custom anti-surge housing made so will run more like a 17-18t as you loose a little top end power but gain a little lower down.

[billybobboot]

1 last thing is misi going to be the only place I can get exhaust gaskets from as I can find the flanges but no gaskets.

[billybobboot]

scrap that me being stupid typed in 3000 not 3000gt so was getting all sorts.

[Davezj]

sounds like you have decided to spend a lot of money on this conversion

hope it works out for you.

please let the rest of us know the highs and lows of this conversion as many more people might wish to go down the same route as you, and it always best to get info from someone who has already been there and done it and felit the pain and know how to avoide it for future project.

[billybobboot]

Looking at spending about 2.5-3k all in as remember i need replacment engine which mean cambelt and water pump and oil pump too as well as new oil seals all round. As well as needing new rad and turbos so its not much extra to do the upgrade

[swinks]

Regarding your turbo choice, technically speaking... You have to consider again yourchoice of turbine size (hot size). In your setup you will be blowing from 1.25 litre head capacity, not 2 litre or more like Scubi, Saab or Evo do. Hence quite small hot sizes in GTO/3000GT. So, please re-think again all potential issues, i.e. manifold back-pressure, turbine wheel resistance and spool time, etc.
Then, you need to get right size of compressor wheel, not too big to avoid laggy spool time. IMO, T profiled wheels are more aggresive and less laggy, but these have to match hot side and overall setup to get the best. G prifile is more "universal" but can be laggy as hell.
My choice would be TD04-15T at 1.2 bar with good 272 cams ;)

[billybobboot]

Reason im looking at 19t was for 3 reasons will give why. But yes i do agree i did look and think 15t was the best choice the resona why im thinking 19t
1. The covers have anti surge on a big turbo with small engine ours is you can get a fair bit of serge even a 15t will do this.

2. The actuators the company sell are normal steel ones with the 13 or 15t but the 19t is a forged ally adjustable actuator so rather than just trying to adjust the strength of the actuator by playing with rod length i can just open it up and swap the spring. Job done.

3. The 13t and 15t were modded 19t i couldnt work this out but it saidon the 13 it was a 15t housing made to fit a 19t?? Size 40.7/56
The 15t was a 15t made to fit 19t size 42/56
19t was 19t made to fit 19t size 46/58
All these 3 came with choise normal or billet wheel

2 options im looking at were
19t both billet but can now choose between 6+6 or 11 full blade
One has anti surge one dosnt both come with adjustale actuators.

Also both the 13 and 15 have 15t cartrage i discarded the 13t due to just didnt sound right to many odds. 15t is a good choice but would need to pay extra for the actuators but its still a 15t housing with a 19t wheel so still sort of a 19t and i know putting bigger wheel in smaller housing can cause probs.

This is why im looking at the 19t anti surge with 11 blade full length this should help with the bigger turbo on small engine help with spool times and give good low stronger boost and the anti serge will help at low rpm and boost levels.
Went with td04 rather than td04l or hl as the wheels maybe better mached to the 19t but the spool times on the td04hl are almost 1000rmp worse think was about 800rpm compared to td04 means should be at full boost by 4000 rather than 5000 and start useable spooling boost .3 at 3-3250 rather than 4-4500.
I did look at most options just the extras the 19t seamed better as you got everything all options i wanted
Td04, anti surge, adjustable actuator, bullet wheel and 11 full length (same a greddy gtx turbos)
Has a gtx before and loved it. Gave a far even but strong low boost level and stayed strong to rpm but again was on rotary engine with that turbo.
I would prefer a g to a t but i have to start compramising and to get a g i have to go td04hl and its going to spool just too late.

[billybobboot]

Im no turbo expert i wont no till i try but people have run td04hl 19t gave good power but very laggy.

Others have run td04l 15t not really found much on this

Others have run 3000gt setup again not much on this.

+ im hoping the cams will help a little with lag and top end spooling.

[Davezj]

Have you built the manifolds and fitted turbos yet, just interested in which way you went with this.

[billybobboot]

im in the middle of doing it now, i should have taken pics while doing it but forgot but will do for the rear one.

i have 1 or 2 probs but have found it an advantage over the scooby turbos, the scooby turbo exhaust housing have a shorter neck but the turbos are a slightly bigger exhaust wheel compared to the stock 3000gt ones, the other thing i have found is as the turbos are both misi they both have a ring between the turbo and manifolds this has made getting the turbo flange in the middle much easyer and pin pint perfect, the other advantage is i havent had to cut the old turbo flange out like others have just welded the turbo flange strait on,

the rear manifold is done this was easy, i cut a 25deg angle off the turbo side of the flange and welded the new flange on, this aloud me to keep the stock location and keep it from being to close to the back fire wall. all lines up in the same place no problems.

the front manifold ive gone a diffrent way to others,
others have cut the old turbo flange out carefully and slot a new flange in and weld it, the prob with this is you only have a very thin edge to weld to without getting weld in the way of the flange and turbo meeting, can be done well but isnt as strong,

ive just welded the 2 turbo flanges together again with a turbo ring to line it up, ive then cut the other end, this is what i did,
ive cut the head flange almost off starting at the bottom leaving just a very small bit left holding the rest of the manifold pipes on, ive then bent the rest of the manifold up till it was about 35deg and then cut the manifold in line with the head flange so the bottom is the same length and the top has about 10mm removed so tilts the manifold up i then welded the head flange and the manifold back together, i had to head up 1 corner and tap it over on one side to line the hole all up took me 2 mins quick heat with ox and cet and tap with hammer to re align all 3 holes with the head flange and grind it level so sits flush.

so the front manifold now rather than sitting strait off the head flange it now goes up, all i have to do is get a head side manifold flange to space the manifold away from the head by 10mm, doing all this means my welds can be as long and thick as i like giveing strength to the welds i have also been able to weling the inside of the manifold to add strength this will then be dye grinded smooth to give a good air flow and ill also dye grind the head side flanges to the same size as the gaskets, doing this has also ment the turbo sits is the same location misses the oil filter neck with no mods to the neck and as it sits in the same place the actuators sit in stock location i can use all the stock turbo feed and return pipes both front and back and ive even been able to use the stock air filter intake pipes all i had to do was cut the plastic where it use to go over the intake of the turbo and add a short bit of hose makes it look far more stock even my intercooler pipes i just cut the very end off and just added a strait joiner pipe on,

im just in the middle of making the turbo to down pipes using the stock loactions means i can make it all line up to the stock down pipes make buying new down pipes if i ever need to as i have s/s ones easy as i just by stock parts. after this is done ill then be taking the turbo manifolds off and die gringing the welds to make them look nice inside and give good flow,

to do all this work i has cost me a few ours of welding 2 stock manifolds and 3 flanges, and if it goes wrong i had a spare set of manifolds. if i really get stuck trying to find a head manifold flange to use as a spacer ill just cut one off a stock manifold and weld it to the manifold that i have made but thats a last resort i have got a flange on order from usa as couldnt find any in the uk.

[billybobboot]

i know it sound very long and hard work but it really was just a case of cut 1 manifold in half and rejoin and weld of a turbo flange and the other simply just cut the old flange at an angle and weld on the new flange, has honestly taken me about 3 hours to build it all, the longest bit will be tidying the welds up so they dont obstruct the flow on the inside.

[billybobboot]

it been far better than having custome manifold made at 10+ times the price

[Davezj]

What did you use to cut the flanges?
You must have access to a milling machine and the jigs to hold the manifold in the correct place. So the angles can be cut on the flanges.
Or are you doing it some other way.

[billybobboot]

other method, I have no milling machine but I do have access to a lathe for making the studs and any other odd things like this, I do have access to my brother in law if needed hes a procition engenear or something like that,

anyways its all being done in a normal garage work shop, the only work being done outside my work are the flange plates all welding cutting ect is done by me.

I simply put the stock manifold on with the turbo and turbo flange I use the stock turbo location rings in the flange plate. I cut the manifold using a normal long fine tooth metal hacksaw I cut the manifold as close as possible to where the stock flange is, I just left a tiny bit of metal left all I did was bend the pipes to the right angle then put in vice and very slowly and carefully cut the manifold pipes, once cut again I just offered everything up on a bench and then tack welded the manifold, once done this I just had to heat and tap over 1 edge to line the pipes up with the stock flange then just simply grinded all the metal up so was perfectly clean then turned up welder high and welded it both outside and inside the then just die grinded it all flush to make sure the flow inside was ok and tidied up the outside so would bolt up ok,

the flange for the turbo I just simply used the stock turbo rings to line it all up again tacked it to make sure before I welded and make sure it cleared everything once happy welded it all up.

as said everything has been done at a normal garage with no special tools except a good mig welder, oxi and cet and a die grinder, the back was very easy just guessed the angle to cut the stock flange at and weld on the new one.

I found if far easyer than trying to cut out the old flange perfectly and try and fit the new flange in with no gaps ect.