Timing belt 60k service-What would you do?

[Primus101]

Gents,
I've really been looking forward to getting behind the wheel/Steeringw of my new touring wagon since picking it up 3 weeks ago, I'm on the west coast of Canada. '97 COTY currently @ 62k km/38k miles. Reluctant to drive it, as it had an unnerving top end rattle that I diagnosed to the TB idler pulley ( & I suspected the belt & components are the aged 18yo factory original parts & in all fairness, have reached their expiry date) digging the seals out from the idler revealed the grease to be baked dry- is that common for these idlers? It seems to be in a bad location for being heat-soaked.

Seller supplied a full factory 60k kit, including the water pump & cam/crank seals.
I've talked myself out of replacing the seals at this time, setting seals properly is something that I typically do with the engine on a stand, not hunched over a wheelwell in cramped quarters. they all appear dry as could be so I'm not going to mess with them.
So that leaves me with the belt, tensioner, pulleys & water pump. All of these factory parts are readily available somewhat close by ordering from the US (and quite a bit more reasonably priced from the 6g72TT components that I'm used to)except the water pump- it's fairly pricey @ $300+ USD.

I've read a few times now here on the forum of the WP being replaced every second belt change. If I leave the original pump be for now, that would take it to 100k miles when replaced. I've also read up on the procedure to change the pump, & it doesn't look like much fun./JawDroppi

The new belts going on, as well as the tensioner & pulleys, but:

Would you replace the water pump at this time?

I might be better off to replace it at the next service, when it's really run it's course ( & no doubt harder to obtain) Does a failed pump typically spew coolant as an indicator that its defective on these 6a13's? prior to the timing going askew?

Thanks for your input:beerchug:

[Louis]

If the car is new to you, and not bought from someone you know, then I would change the water pump at the same time. Replacement Water pumps in the UK are quite cheap so it makes sense to change it while you are doing the timing belt.
As you have mentioned get a timing belt kit and change the pulleys and idlers at the same time.
I wouldn't worry about the crank seal and other seals if they are not leaking and you are not 100% happy with the seating them .
I have not heard of an idler pulley going!.
I reckon as the car is low mileage it has not been used much, Or not as a daily driver, so the packed grease and failing idler could be down to standing still, or lack of use by previous owner.
Sounds like a good car, is the body work etc all in good condition, if yes, the things you mention are probably due to lack of use.
:)

[Louis]

PM me your post code / address.
I can buy a water pump for £60 , $canada 120 ish. And I can get a parcel post cost checked out for you. If not too expensive I can buy and post one and post it to you if you want.
:)

[TAR]

Why not change it whilst you are doing the belts. That way yo have peace of mind and won't worry about whether its going to last until the next belt change. :happy:

[Primus101]

Thanks for the offer, Louis.
I already have all the new factory parts on hand, & I've always preferred to use Mitsu replacements.

Just hoping for some longevity advice from those with 6a13 expertise for the WP replacement, so I'm not wasting my time & money replacing it well before its needed.

I am new to the 6a13tt & for the most part, need to learn more of any unique fragile maintainance condition's that are associated with them.

Thanks

[elnevio]

When my VR-4 came into the country, it was in extremely good condition (being a Newera Imports car) and had 59,500km on the clock.

I asked the UK import agent to undertake a full cambelt service as it was not clear if one had been done on time previously, and one was probably due anyway.

I asked about getting the water pump done at the same time, but my relative naivety and belief in the agent's experience, it didn't get replaced because he suggested it wasn't necessary.

One year later, at the VR-4's second MoT, it started leaking! This was about 25,000km later. And an original factory Mitsubishi water pump.

So, if I were you, I would replace the water pump at the same time. Alas, I am not you, but I thought I would share my experience in the event it helps you with your decision making. :)

[Adam.Findlay]

do everything
-belt
-idler bearing
-tensioner bearing
-hyd tensioner
-cam seals
-crank seal
- water pump

and if they havent been done its clever to do these at the same time
-rocker cover gaskets inc spark plug seals
-spark plugs
-leads
-oil change and coolant flush

if your stressed about pushing the cam seals wonky or pushing them in too far, the easy way is to take the rocker covers off (which have to come off anyway if your doing rocker cover seals) then take the front caps off to flick the old seals out and put the new seals in then torque the caps back down ontop of the new seals.

Defiantly do the waterpump. its only an extra 10 bolts to get the engine mount off and out of the way to do the pump and if it does fail you have to take the whole belt off again to change it, its stupid not to do it while your in there.

[Louis]

I agree with the above.
No question, change it while you are in there.
If it is cost of the pump that is putting you off, I can buy pump here for $120 canadian and post it to you. I always do mine with the timing belt.

:)

[dodo_ireland]

I fully agree with all of you. In every car im changing WP when changing TB. Its just financially best option whichever way you look at it.

[Primus101]

Thanks everyone for the input.
The WP is being swapped, just had to move the Leggy to the back burner temporarily while I did some business in my shop. Going to slide under her today in search of a couple block drains ( I'm hoping there is, although I don't see any mention of them in the parts listings)

Nev's post had me convinced, as his scenario was very similar to mine. Normally I would have never second guessed it, but after reading a number of times on the forum here about putting it off, I thought I might be lucky to save some work. The WP is closed in from the longterm external elements, but who knows the condition that the coolant has been...
I've never dealt with a WP replacement that uses just sealer & no gasket. Seems most here buy aftermarket WP's that have a gasket included. Not sure how to go about the location of the sealant bead on this factory pump due to the channels that are on the sealing surface- as seen here, some of the channeling breaches into the coolant area. Any thoughts or experience with this?
73592

[Nick Mann]

I try to avoid getting sealant in the grooves that both start and finish in the coolant area. Having said that I have also come to the conclusion that the grooves are too small and therefore must be (at least mostly) pointless for coolant movement so I think they are likely to be designed to assist the sealant.

[peter thomson]

Thanks everyone for the input.
The WP is being swapped, just had to move the Leggy to the back burner temporarily while I did some business in my shop. Going to slide under her today in search of a couple block drains ( I'm hoping there is, although I don't see any mention of them in the parts listings)

Nev's post had me convinced, as his scenario was very similar to mine. Normally I would have never second guessed it, but after reading a number of times on the forum here about putting it off, I thought I might be lucky to save some work. The WP is closed in from the longterm external elements, but who knows the condition that the coolant has been...
I've never dealt with a WP replacement that uses just sealer & no gasket. Seems most here buy aftermarket WP's that have a gasket included. Not sure how to go about the location of the sealant bead on this factory pump due to the channels that are on the sealing surface- as seen here, some of the channeling breaches into the coolant area. Any thoughts or experience with this?
73592

There are drain plugs on either side of the engine. The turbos and manifolds make them difficult to spot but they are in about the centre of the block

[Primus101]

Thanks Nick, yes, my thoughts were the channels were to form sort of an oring out of the sealer. I am going to use Permatex ultra grey, as their specs show it is up to the standards of the suggested factory sealant. The factory sealant is far too expensive to see potentially go to waste after one use.

I didn't get a chance to look for the drains last night, Peter, but thanks for the info for when I get to them tomorrow.

[Adam.Findlay]

Generous bead of sealant all over the mating surface. I always use 3-bond as its OE spec. Just make sure the block surface is clean!

[Nick Mann]

I always use a loctite product. I can't remember the exact spec but it is also grey, designed for metal joints and holding back coolant.

[Primus101]

Hmm, maybe I'll look that up. I'd much rather use a product that's proven.
I'm not sure 3-bond is available here.

[Primus101]

Well, the rear bank drain is easy enough to get to...the front not so much, only spotted with a mirror.
I was hoping both banks would drain enough from just the rear, but looking at the WP design, it appears the coolant for the front bank is held at a higher level.

I'm always nervous about reusing the #7 bolts for the tension pulley & the pulley bracket, so I'm going to see if I can order them locally. May not be able to get the bracket bolt (which is a shame as I want to pull the bracket & service the bushings) but the pulley bolt(MF244884) is the same as I use in the 6g72 & has been factory upgraded to a #8, as it's been well known to fail after multiple use.

[Adam.Findlay]

if you're worried about it just go get a 12.9 grade bolt or cap screw from your local fastener store. I've only ever heard of one instance of that tensioner pulley bolt failing and the many VR4 cambelts I've done I've never had one break or even feel like its stretching/yeilding

[Primus101]

So I've had pretty good success with tracking down most of the torque specs that I need, except for the lower motor mount bracket>block. I suspect details for that would be in a bottom end/6a13 engine FSM- also for rotating assembly ect. Is there such a manual?

Edit- found the spec in the 6a1 engine manual- 49 Nm

[Adam.Findlay]

http://www.mivec.co.nz/tech/6A1_Engine_Manual.pdf

Page 7

[Tarps87]

Will be doing the crank seal soon + all the timing belt parts on the way to it, is there a way to lock the back cams while doing the cam seals or is it a case of putting them back to tdc after?

[Primus101]

You'll just have to let them rotate to their neutral position, Daniel, & then return them to TDC. I would definitely use the proper 2-point gear holding tool for removing & retorquing cam gear bolt- if you jamb the gear from a single point you're likely to damage the gear. 88Nm is a fairly high torque.

For those that are following, I've come across a torque # misprint in the English 6a1 manual, for the TB tension pulley bracket bolt- states 24Nm for the sohc (pg.11a-4-1) & 44Nm for the mivec (pg.11a-4-2). Unfortunately, I cannot locate that torque spec in the Jap dohc to confirm, but I would think 44Nm is the correct #.
24Nm could end up in disaster.

[Tarps87]

You'll just have to let them rotate to their neutral position, Daniel, & then return them to TDC. I would definitely use the proper 2-point gear holding tool for removing & retorquing cam gear bolt- if you jamb the gear from a single point you're likely to damage the gear. 88Nm is a fairly high torque.

For those that are following, I've come across a torque # misprint in the English 6a1 manual, for the TB tension pulley bracket bolt- states 24Nm for the sohc (pg.11a-4-1) & 44Nm for the mivec (pg.11a-4-2). Unfortunately, I cannot locate that torque spec in the Jap dohc to confirm, but I would think 44Nm is the correct #.
24Nm could end up in disaster.
Thanks, I have a holding tool will just need to check the fit.