Looking to possibly invest in a Vr-4, but I have some questions.

[J18A]

Hello! It's great to see such a community like this one! For years now, I've always loved the idea of getting a Vr-4, whether that's a Legnum or a Galant. One of the main reasons for that is simply due to the fact that I truly enjoy the idea of owning and enjoying something that others don't have an idea about! Who doesn't want a great looking saloon/sedan or an estate that has a power figure in excess of 260bhp, right? I've been browsing around this forum for a few days now, only to notice that the 6A13TT can't exactly squeeze out too much power after modifications. Of course, I'd be willing to put some money down for modifications, but are they really worth doing for a minor gain? Are these engines capable of making 400-500bhp? You may wonder why I'd want that sort of power output, and really, as silly as it may seem, the idea of having more power is always great even if you don't necessarily use it. If your answer is 'yes' to my power output question, then how much would these modifications actually cost and are they feasible to do on this car? Furthermore, how reliable are Vr4's? I've heard the N/A ones are decent, but I've heard that if something goes wrong, it could be heavy on the pocket to put it right again. So really, is it even worth getting?

Thanks in advance!

Regards,

AJ

[TAR]

Hi and welcome to the club.

Last question answer first - DEFINITELY. You are asking a bunch of people who own and love our cars whether we think they are worth having!

You can get good power if you are willing to spend money. There was a car on here pushing 450 BHP on standard internals but it was one of the first and cost the owner many thousands of pounds to achieve.

Mild to medium gains up to around 325BHP can be had with more modest modifications.

Being 4wd it gets off the line very quickly so is a great traffic light drag car. The auto is unbeatable in this respect.

Service parts are relatively easy to come by and there is a ton of knowledge on here and we are a very friendly bunch.

The fun in tuning these is finding novel ways to use alternative parts to attain your desired result.

Reliability is fine if the car is looked after and serviced regularly.

If you don't want to part with any money for servicing or are concerned by how often you need to fill the tank, steer clear.

:happy:

[J18A]

Thanks for the reply, Tar! How much would it roughly cost to reach 325BHP? Well, isn't the auto unreliable in the sense that their gearboxes are weak? Is there any way to obtain a stronger gearbox? What's the top end like on these things?

[giblet]

Welcome to the club. Whereabouts in the country are you?

[J18A]

Welcome to the club. Whereabouts in the country are you?

Thanks! I'm in the north west region of London. What's your insight on this?

[foxdie]

Hi J18A,

Tim ( TAR ) is right, 325 HP (and more importantly, 350+ Ft/Lbs torque) is certainly possible with a few mods;


Free-er flowing exhaust (certainly a de-cat (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/mitsubishi-galant-vr4-twin-turbo-2-5-inch-stainless-steel-storm-decat-pipe-/231628834453), cat-back exhaust recommended too, custom downpipes if you wanna go further)
Fuel delivery upgrades (Walbro GSS342 fuel pump for Mitsubishi (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Walbro-255LPH-Fuel-Pump-Install-Kit-MITSUBISHI-LANCER-EVO-GSS342-/121701449065) + Fuel pressure regulator (http://fuelperformance.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=104_459_754&product_id=4971) + The correct fuel rail adapter (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mitsubishi-FTO-GTO-3000GT-V6-24v-Sytec-Fuel-Rail-Adaptor-6G72-6A12-/281202652275))
Intercooler upgrades (this (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Front-Mount-Intercooler-pipe-Kit-for-Legnum-Mitsubishi-Galant-VR-4-96-02-black-/281520654134) appears to be a nice kit)

Once you've done those, you'll need the car tuning. There are a few members who can do this (I'm one of them and based in the West Midlands, Davezj in the Manchester area, Eurospec in Guildford is a professional company that do it) and naturally with anything is only as good as the car being tuned (needs to be healthy).

Hope this helps.

[giblet]

Thanks! I'm in the north west region of London. What's your insight on this?

I agree with the posts by Tar and Foxdie. I'm on my 3rd VR4 at the moment, not a lot else out there that offers the same performance and looks combined with rarity.

My car is running a bigger intercooler, colder plugs, bigger downpipe and decat mated to stock rear section and backbox along with a off the shelf map supplied by a fellow forum member which was then tweaked accordingly. AFR was monitored during this as I had a gauge fitted as well. I've had my car converted to LPG as it drops the fuelling costs by more than half.

All in all a cracking all round car which can handle all weather conditions.

[J18A]

Hi J18A,

Tim ( TAR ) is right, 325 HP (and more importantly, 350+ Ft/Lbs torque) is certainly possible with a few mods;


Free-er flowing exhaust (certainly a de-cat (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/mitsubishi-galant-vr4-twin-turbo-2-5-inch-stainless-steel-storm-decat-pipe-/231628834453), cat-back exhaust recommended too, custom downpipes if you wanna go further)
Fuel delivery upgrades (Walbro GSS342 fuel pump for Mitsubishi (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Walbro-255LPH-Fuel-Pump-Install-Kit-MITSUBISHI-LANCER-EVO-GSS342-/121701449065) + Fuel pressure regulator (http://fuelperformance.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=104_459_754&product_id=4971) + The correct fuel rail adapter (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mitsubishi-FTO-GTO-3000GT-V6-24v-Sytec-Fuel-Rail-Adaptor-6G72-6A12-/281202652275))
Intercooler upgrades (this (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Front-Mount-Intercooler-pipe-Kit-for-Legnum-Mitsubishi-Galant-VR-4-96-02-black-/281520654134) appears to be a nice kit)

Once you've done those, you'll need the car tuning. There are a few members who can do this (I'm one of them and based in the West Midlands, Davezj in the Manchester area, Eurospec in Guildford is a professional company that do it) and naturally with anything is only as good as the car being tuned (needs to be healthy).

Hope this helps.

Thank you for the response! So all in all you're looking at around £350 for parts and tuning? How much would the tuning cost? Now would be a good time to state that I'm more design orientated rather than someone who has mechanical knowledge. In fact, I have very little. How much of a labour charge would I incur?
Just for knowledge's sake, what spec are and/or were you running?


I agree with the posts by Tar and Foxdie. I'm on my 3rd VR4 at the moment, not a lot else out there that offers the same performance and looks combined with rarity.

My car is running a bigger intercooler, colder plugs, bigger downpipe and decat mated to stock rear section and backbox along with a off the shelf map supplied by a fellow forum member which was then tweaked accordingly. AFR was monitored during this as I had a gauge fitted as well. I've had my car converted to LPG as it drops the fuelling costs by more than half.

All in all a cracking all round car which can handle all weather conditions.

Your 3rd one? Did they all last for a prolonged period of time? And how much power are you running? What sort of performance effect does LPG seem to have on the car and how much did the conversion cost?

--

Thanks in advance,

AJ

[J18A]

I've replied but my post is waiting for a moderator's approval .

[giblet]

Went in for my MOT a few weeks ago and the garage had a 1999 Audi S4 in for some work. Same age as my car, similar set up with a V6 twin turbo and awd but the Audi looked way more dated. The styling of the VR4 is what has kept it look so unique and aggressive. In my several years of owning a VR4 I've only ever seen a handful of other ones on the road.

[J18A]

Went in for my MOT a few weeks ago and the garage had a 1999 Audi S4 in for some work. Same age as my car, similar set up with a V6 twin turbo and awd but the Audi looked way more dated. The styling of the VR4 is what has kept it look so unique and aggressive. In my several years of owning a VR4 I've only ever seen a handful of other ones on the road.

That's really good to hear! Have you by any chance come across my questions above, or is this in reply to that?

Thanks!

[foxdie]

Thank you for the response! So all in all you're looking at around £350 for parts and tuning? How much would the tuning cost? Now would be a good time to state that I'm more design orientated rather than someone who has mechanical knowledge. In fact, I have very little. How much of a labour charge would I incur?
Just for knowledge's sake, what spec are and/or were you running?

I'm also on my third VR-4, it's just the way things work. My first one wasn't anything special, it had an electronic boost controller but was limited by fuel cut (0.8~ bar) and made about 290 HP with just a de-cat.

My second one I went to town on (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?53712-Diary-of-the-Black-Shadow), all the mods above plus good NGK plugs and custom-built downpipes, I tuned that up to a dyno proven 340 HP and 380 Ft/Lbs of torque. It was quite the animal;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKNHSbC7OPA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEXtceMpz4g

By that point the turbos were definitely at their limits and would cause oil overheating if run at high boost for extended periods of time (it was mainly built as a dyno shootout car), it's why I ended up adding switchable maps.

Since then I've seen 400 ft/lbs squeezed out of the turbos (but roughly the same power) but that was boosting to unsafe levels (I think it peaked at 1.6 bar, I personally feel 1.3 is the safe point), going beyond these figures would require better turbos / ignition mods / uprated head bolts etc.

Gowf built SWOC, a 450 HP monster with TD-04s (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?27716-The-thread-you-ve-been-waiting-for!) but he was breaking half shafts on a regular basis from all the torque it was making. It also had larger injectors and an aftermarket engine ECU.

I also vaguely remember reading that 500+ was achieved by a guy in Russia (can't remember his name) but by that point he was starting to see crank walk (at this point a forged engine would definitely be required, I would recommend anything after Gowfs levels of power would require forging and definitely stronger transmission parts.

As for tuning, my prices are here (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?59995-SFX-ECU-Diagnostic-and-Tuning-Services). You'll need a facelift ECU if you want switcheable maps, anti-lag and/or CEL-on-knock. I will have one (or perhaps two) for sale soon, keep your eyes peeled on the UK Parts Section.

Ps. I highly recommend you consider membership, see the link in my signature :)

[giblet]

That's really good to hear! Have you by any chance come across my questions above, or is this in reply to that?

Thanks!

Sorry, your post wasn't showing at the time.


Your 3rd one? Did they all last for a prolonged period of time? And how much power are you running? What sort of performance effect does LPG seem to have on the car and how much did the conversion cost?

The cars do last, I just have a stupid habit of changing vehicles far too often. Saying that I've kept the current one for nearly two years. I've not had the car on a dyno yet but I'm hoping to get a run soon, expecting to be close to 300bhp.

LPG hasn't had any affect on the performance, it was converted by a fellow member who knows his onions when it comes to LPG and was mapped by him too. His Legnum is on LPG and puts out the same power on both petrol and gas. I spent £1200 on my conversion with a 60 litre tank in the boot. It was converted in summer last year and I've had no issues since it was done. Range is around 190-240 miles to a tank (55 litres or so at around £27).

As for your question about reliability in a different post they are reliable cars provided they are serviced regularly and with the correct fluids. I had my gearbox flushed and filled with amsoil atf after I bought the car. The car had only done 40 odd thousand miles from new and was shifting fine but the Amsoil still made a noticeable difference and the box is still going strong 15,000 miles later. I had my lifters replaced earlier this year and had the engine flushed at the same time and made the switch to Amsoil engine oil. At £60 for the oil it isn't cheap but it's cracking stuff. The atf was around £200 but I still have 3 litres left for the next change in spring.

[J18A]

I'm also on my third VR-4, it's just the way things work. My first one wasn't anything special, it had an electronic boost controller but was limited by fuel cut (0.8~ bar) and made about 290 HP with just a de-cat.

My second one I went to town on (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?53712-Diary-of-the-Black-Shadow), all the mods above plus good NGK plugs and custom-built downpipes, I tuned that up to a dyno proven 340 HP and 380 Ft/Lbs of torque. It was quite the animal;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKNHSbC7OPA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEXtceMpz4g

By that point the turbos were definitely at their limits and would cause oil overheating if run at high boost for extended periods of time (it was mainly built as a dyno shootout car), it's why I ended up adding switchable maps.

Since then I've seen 400 ft/lbs squeezed out of the turbos (but roughly the same power) but that was boosting to unsafe levels (I think it peaked at 1.6 bar, I personally feel 1.3 is the safe point), going beyond these figures would require better turbos / ignition mods / uprated head bolts etc.

Gowf built SWOC, a 450 HP monster with TD-04s (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?27716-The-thread-you-ve-been-waiting-for!) but he was breaking half shafts on a regular basis from all the torque it was making. It also had larger injectors and an aftermarket engine ECU.

I also vaguely remember reading that 500+ was achieved by a guy in Russia (can't remember his name) but by that point he was starting to see crank walk (at this point a forged engine would definitely be required, I would recommend anything after Gowfs levels of power would require forging and definitely stronger transmission parts.

As for tuning, my prices are here (http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?59995-SFX-ECU-Diagnostic-and-Tuning-Services). You'll need a facelift ECU if you want switcheable maps, anti-lag and/or CEL-on-knock. I will have one (or perhaps two) for sale soon, keep your eyes peeled on the UK Parts Section.

Ps. I highly recommend you consider membership, see the link in my signature :)

Thanks for the reply! Woah! The second video's great! It sounds amazing! Do you know what sort of 0-60 times you were hitting with 340bhp and what was your top end like? Thanks for the tuning prices. What about the prices of actually fitting in everything you said?


Sorry, your post wasn't showing at the time.

The cars do last, I just have a stupid habit of changing vehicles far too often. Saying that I've kept the current one for nearly two years. I've not had the car on a dyno yet but I'm hoping to get a run soon, expecting to be close to 300bhp.

LPG hasn't had any affect on the performance, it was converted by a fellow member who knows his onions when it comes to LPG and was mapped by him too. His Legnum is on LPG and puts out the same power on both petrol and gas. I spent £1200 on my conversion with a 60 litre tank in the boot. It was converted in summer last year and I've had no issues since it was done. Range is around 190-240 miles to a tank (55 litres or so at around £27).

As for your question about reliability in a different post they are reliable cars provided they are serviced regularly and with the correct fluids. I had my gearbox flushed and filled with amsoil atf after I bought the car. The car had only done 40 odd thousand miles from new and was shifting fine but the Amsoil still made a noticeable difference and the box is still going strong 15,000 miles later. I had my lifters replaced earlier this year and had the engine flushed at the same time and made the switch to Amsoil engine oil. At £60 for the oil it isn't cheap but it's cracking stuff. The atf was around £200 but I still have 3 litres left for the next change in spring.

It's all good, haha! Yeah, I kind of have the same habit... 300bhp is great! The LPG conversion is something I'd definitely be willing to do! Has that enabled you to turn it into a daily? Yeah, I've read about the Amsoil oil! This community seems to be pretty satisfied with it, which is great! I definitely wouldn't mind spending the extra amount from what I've read. Is your car an automatic? I'd also like to know what the differences the auto and manual variants have in terms of top end, acceleration and economy. Do you happen to know anything regarding that?

Thanks!

[Chris.W]

As mentioned by foxdie, Gowf did make 450 bhp (well 444.7 to be exact) with around 600Nm of torque. But being as he was one of the first to do it, it cost him around £23k and lots of teething issues. For example, he ended up spending about £5k on the exhaust system as the initial manifolds he got made cracked then he had them remade.

I now have all the parts that were fitted to his car fitted to mine. But being that the majority of the stuff I have fitted is second hand (and still going strong) and that I do the vast majority of work on my car myself, it has still cost me £10k to get here. I have my ecu map dialed back a touch for safety/reliability and every day use. But it still go's like a rocket. Put it this way, from a standing start to triple figures it out drags my mates 52 reg Porsche 911!!!

There are quite a few others who have gone down the Td04 route and one or 2 who are doing it at the moment would be interesting to see how they are doing the conversion and budgets as well.

[Chris.W]

Aaaarrrggghh bloody double post. Thing my laptop doing funny things. :)

[J18A]

As mentioned by foxdie, Gowf did make 450 bhp (well 444.7 to be exact) with around 600Nm of torque. But being as he was one of the first to do it, it cost him around £23k and lots of teething issues. For example, he ended up spending about £5k on the exhaust system as the initial manifolds he got made cracked then he had them remade.

I now have all the parts that were fitted to his car fitted to mine. But being that the majority of the stuff I have fitted is second hand (and still going strong) and that I do the vast majority of work on my car myself, it has still cost me £10k to get here. I have my ecu map dialed back a touch for safety/reliability and every day use. But it still go's like a rocket. Put it this way, from a standing start to triple figures it out drags my mates 52 reg Porsche 911!!!

There are quite a few others who have gone down the Td04 route and one or 2 who are doing it at the moment would be interesting to see how they are doing the conversion and budgets as well.

That's pretty pricey, but from what you're saying, it seems that you can obtain the parts a bit cheaper if you buy them used. So I assume you're approximately running 450 bhp and 600Nm of torque? Yeah, I wish I had the mechanical knowledge to do that sort of stuff! What's your top end like? No way! I'd love to do that! Is it the Turbo or Carrera variant?

Yeah, hopefully they go well!


Aaaarrrggghh bloody double post. Thing my laptop doing funny things. :)

Yeah it's unfortunate since I tried deleting the one I did earlier! :)

[Nick Mann]

Top end is around 150 mph on a standard car. Gearing will run out not long after on a manual version.

0-60 is in the low 6s on a standard car. The tuning that people are mentioning above doesn't give headline power increase because our turbos are too small to flow at high revs. What is does do is give a massive torque increase in the mid range, so 0-60 times can drop to high 4s.

[giblet]

It's all good, haha! Yeah, I kind of have the same habit... 300bhp is great! The LPG conversion is something I'd definitely be willing to do! Has that enabled you to turn it into a daily? Yeah, I've read about the Amsoil oil! This community seems to be pretty satisfied with it, which is great! I definitely wouldn't mind spending the extra amount from what I've read. Is your car an automatic? I'd also like to know what the differences the auto and manual variants have in terms of top end, acceleration and economy. Do you happen to know anything regarding that?

Thanks!

All 3 of mine have been daily drivers but switching to LPG has allowed me to do more miles than I normally would simply because the cost per mile is so low. I went from spending £60 or so a week on a tank of V Power to £25-27 a week on a tank of gas. I still stick £20 of V Power in a month as the car starts on petrol and then switches over to gas once the temps are right. Majority of my driving is town based, my commute to work is just under 3 miles each way and I nip home at lunchtimes so as you can imagine there is a lot of stop start traffic. I've done long motorway trips and Sunday morning hoons out in the countryside on LPG with zero issues.

My car is an auto, I haven't driven a manual so can't comment on top end in that regard or performance and economy on the manuals. My car seemed to run out of grunt at around an indicated 135mph before my remap but managed to get close to 150 indicated after the map.

[Chris.W]

Yup that's the figures mine will make, and it is a manual too. As i said is dialled back a touch for safety. As for top end, as Nick says I would say around 150ish but I never given it that much tho, chickened out at 145mph on a German autobahn.
Was a Carrera 2.

[J18A]

Top end is around 150 mph on a standard car. Gearing will run out not long after on a manual version.

0-60 is in the low 6s on a standard car. The tuning that people are mentioning above doesn't give headline power increase because our turbos are too small to flow at high revs. What is does do is give a massive torque increase in the mid range, so 0-60 times can drop to high 4s.

By standard do you mean auto or manual? Oh, that's great! So with 325-350bhp, could I expect a low 5 second time? So from what you're saying, there's not much of a difference in terms of the auto and manual variants? What would you personally recommend?


All 3 of mine have been daily drivers but switching to LPG has allowed me to do more miles than I normally would simply because the cost per mile is so low. I went from spending £60 or so a week on a tank of V Power to £25-27 a week on a tank of gas. I still stick £20 of V Power in a month as the car starts on petrol and then switches over to gas once the temps are right. Majority of my driving is town based, my commute to work is just under 3 miles each way and I nip home at lunchtimes so as you can imagine there is a lot of stop start traffic. I've done long motorway trips and Sunday morning hoons out in the countryside on LPG with zero issues.

My car is an auto, I haven't driven a manual so can't comment on top end in that regard or performance and economy on the manuals. My car seemed to run out of grunt at around an indicated 135mph before my remap but managed to get close to 150 indicated after the map.

That's great to hear! After hearing this, I'm definitely more inclined to do an LPG conversion once I get my car, thanks! I wonder if it'll go beyond the 150mph mark..


Yup that's the figures mine will make, and it is a manual too. As i said is dialled back a touch for safety. As for top end, as Nick says I would say around 150ish but I never given it that much tho, chickened out at 145mph on a German autobahn.
Was a Carrera 2.

Damn, that's great! Do you personally know of any in-depth difference between the auto and manual variants?

--

What's the gearing like on these? Apologies about being a pain, but what speed is each gear capable of hitting?

[TAR]

you really need to try using the search function, or just read through some of the threads on here. These are the sort of questions which get asked over and over. :happy:

[sagaris]

Just want to thank all you guys for the tech information, knowledge, expertise and support. Really useful to know the specs and what can be expected when fitted. Great stuff!!

[J18A]

you really need to try using the search function, or just read through some of the threads on here. These are the sort of questions which get asked over and over. :happy:

Apologies!


Just want to thank all you guys for the tech information, knowledge, expertise and support. Really useful to know the specs and what can be expected when fitted. Great stuff!!

Yeah, agreed!

[Nick Mann]

For a quick auto vs manual conclusion, auto is better round town and for traffic light grand prix. Manual is more rewarding on track and quicker once rolling. Both are fine in every scenario.

[Chris.W]

I've had both and they each had there good point and bad points.
At the end of the day tho I am a manual fan. Just prefer being in control of the gears. The auto has a semi auto manual function which is good and is generally the way i would drive mine. But I found it wasn't so keen on the downshift, if it thought your revs were too high.

By standard we mean not tuned or modified irrespective of gearbox type.

[J18A]

For a quick auto vs manual conclusion, auto is better round town and for traffic light grand prix. Manual is more rewarding on track and quicker once rolling. Both are fine in every scenario.

Yeah, I've liked the idea of the semi-auto, but the gear box can be a pain if the previous owner hasn't maintained it properly. Plus I down shift quite a bit, so I guess manual would be the better alternative. I know there's probably already a thread in regards to a conversion, but in short, would you be able to tell me of whether or not converting from auto to manual is tedious task?


I've had both and they each had there good point and bad points.
At the end of the day tho I am a manual fan. Just prefer being in control of the gears. The auto has a semi auto manual function which is good and is generally the way i would drive mine. But I found it wasn't so keen on the downshift, if it thought your revs were too high.

By standard we mean not tuned or modified irrespective of gearbox type.

Yeah, I guess manual it is then! I'd hate the hesitation because I down shift quite a lot haha. Hopefully, I can find a good one! Ahh, gotcha! Thanks!

[Confused]

The automatic gearbox in these is VERY good, and great for most driving conditions.

You will NOT be able to accurately assess it, or accurately determine the effectiveness of it (including the semi-manual aspect), on a short test drive. You do need to adjust your thinking slightly on how you drive it in semi-manual mode, however, once you have learnt this, these "limitations" all but disappear.


Basically, the only thing it will do, is that it won't allow you to downshift if the act of changing gear will put the engine revs above the rev limiter.

On a manual, you can sometimes use this, along with some clever clutch control, to initiate a little bit of engine braking. But, generally, you want to (and, usually will) avoid a downshift if the resulting revs will be too high. Only in this, you've got a computer preventing you from doing so.


Where are you in the country? There is bound to be someone nearby who will be prepared to take you for a spin in theirs, and can show you how to use the automatic gearbox. If you're anywhere near Nottingham, then I am more than happy to show you how to drive one of these cars properly - and you'll soon see that the automatic gearbox is very, very capable, once you know how it works, and have adjusted your thinking accordingly.

I've had mine for 6 and a half years, and have done well over 85,000 miles in it. Mechanically, other than routine maintenance, it's not cost me very much at all to run this car. I think in all this time, the only "non-scheduled" things I've had fail are a rear wheel bearing, and an ignition failure sensor. I've also had to replace my downpipes due to the flexi's rusting through, and do a few spots of rust repair.



So, to sum up... don't disregard an auto (most of them ARE auto, so finding a manual can be difficult) - buy based on condition rather than the gearbox. Swapping to a manual box will probably cost you about £1000 in parts, and if you can't do the work yourself, then it's labour costs on top of that.

[chris g]

The auto does NOT hesitate...

It is sensible about preventing over revving the engine.

If you want to check speed of gear change, I believe that manual is slower.

Manual - you decide to change down, you put foot by clutch, hand on gear lever, press throttle to match revs, press clutch, change down, let clutch out and then press throttle...

Auto - you decide to change down, you keep foot on throttle, put hand on gear lever, change down, foot still on throttle...

[Confused]

As chris g says - with the tiptronic, you simply move the gear lever when you'd be thinking about dipping the clutch. Job done.

[TAR]

Manual cars are rare and parts for conversion rarely come up for sale. The tiptronic box learns how you drive and adapts its shifting to match your style.
I've owned both and currently have a manual which I prefer for the driving engagement but would happily own another auto.
:happy:

[J18A]

The automatic gearbox in these is VERY good, and great for most driving conditions.

You will NOT be able to accurately assess it, or accurately determine the effectiveness of it (including the semi-manual aspect), on a short test drive. You do need to adjust your thinking slightly on how you drive it in semi-manual mode, however, once you have learnt this, these "limitations" all but disappear.


Basically, the only thing it will do, is that it won't allow you to downshift if the act of changing gear will put the engine revs above the rev limiter.

On a manual, you can sometimes use this, along with some clever clutch control, to initiate a little bit of engine braking. But, generally, you want to (and, usually will) avoid a downshift if the resulting revs will be too high. Only in this, you've got a computer preventing you from doing so.


Where are you in the country? There is bound to be someone nearby who will be prepared to take you for a spin in theirs, and can show you how to use the automatic gearbox. If you're anywhere near Nottingham, then I am more than happy to show you how to drive one of these cars properly - and you'll soon see that the automatic gearbox is very, very capable, once you know how it works, and have adjusted your thinking accordingly.

I've had mine for 6 and a half years, and have done well over 85,000 miles in it. Mechanically, other than routine maintenance, it's not cost me very much at all to run this car. I think in all this time, the only "non-scheduled" things I've had fail are a rear wheel bearing, and an ignition failure sensor. I've also had to replace my downpipes due to the flexi's rusting through, and do a few spots of rust repair.



So, to sum up... don't disregard an auto (most of them ARE auto, so finding a manual can be difficult) - buy based on condition rather than the gearbox. Swapping to a manual box will probably cost you about £1000 in parts, and if you can't do the work yourself, then it's labour costs on top of that.

Thank you for the reply! I highly appreciate your knowledge! I'm based in Hertfordshire (outskirts of North West London), so getting to you could be a task, haha. So, it'll let you down shift as long as you're below hitting the rev limiter or am I still mistaken?


The auto does NOT hesitate...

It is sensible about preventing over revving the engine.

If you want to check speed of gear change, I believe that manual is slower.

Manual - you decide to change down, you put foot by clutch, hand on gear lever, press throttle to match revs, press clutch, change down, let clutch out and then press throttle...

Auto - you decide to change down, you keep foot on throttle, put hand on gear lever, change down, foot still on throttle...

Ahh yeah, I'm more keen on the auto now! Whilst I love the involvement of the manual, I like the idea that anyone in my family could take this for a drive if they'd like to. Given that it lets you down shift as long as you're below hitting the rev limiter, I'm all for it!


As chris g says - with the tiptronic, you simply move the gear lever when you'd be thinking about dipping the clutch. Job done.

Yeah, the convenience seems great! I wouldn't mind the extra gearbox maintenance per 10k miles. I'd just like to think that the previous owner hasn't abused it or has maintained it on a regular basis!


Manual cars are rare and parts for conversion rarely come up for sale. The tiptronic box learns how you drive and adapts its shifting to match your style.
I've owned both and currently have a manual which I prefer for the driving engagement but would happily own another auto.
:happy:

Yeah, true. I'm not mechanically minded, so the labour charges could be rather pricey!

--

Thank you so much for the responses guys! Please keep them coming if you have any additional knowledge to share!

[John TheAntique]

I'll take you for a run if you are ever over my way.

[J18A]

I'll take you for a run if you are ever over my way.

Yeah, you're actually only about 20 minutes away! I wouldn't even mind funding your fuel for the run, haha! Do you have the auto or manual variant?

[Nick Mann]

Gear changes are quicker with an auto but you lose a bit of power to the wheels.
As Garry says, tiptronic let's you do anything as long as you won't damage the engine, so no selecting 5th at 30mph or selecting 2nd at 80mph. If you hold a gear and accelerate the engine will bounce off the rev limiter but the car still won't change gear.

[John TheAntique]

Yeah, you're actually only about 20 minutes away! I wouldn't even mind funding your fuel for the run, haha! Do you have the auto or manual variant?

You're welcome. Auto, and I wouldn't swop it for a manual even if it was free ! I live above the shop so I am free most days.

[J18A]

Gear changes are quicker with an auto but you lose a bit of power to the wheels.
As Garry says, tiptronic let's you do anything as long as you won't damage the engine, so no selecting 5th at 30mph or selecting 2nd at 80mph. If you hold a gear and accelerate the engine will bounce off the rev limiter but the car still won't change gear.

Yeah, since the revs would be too low at 30, and beyond the limit at 80? Ahh right! So as long as you're not below idle and over the limiter, then it'll let you shift right? How significant is the power loss?


You're welcome. Auto, and I wouldn't swop it for a manual even if it was free ! I live above the shop so I am free most days.

Yeah, I guess it's pretty convenient! May have to take you up on that soon if that's cool! :)

[John TheAntique]

OK any time.

[J18A]

OK any time.

Thanks! I'll message you soon.

[Confused]

The power loss isn't very significant - on a dyno I think we use a 7% correction on an auto to guesstimate the flywheel power.

We did a day at Curborough a couple of years ago for Club VR-4's 10th anniversary, and I was the 3rd quickest VR-4, with a pretty much standard auto, other than slightly increased boost with a basic electronic boost controller.

I can't remember whether those who were faster than me were also auto, or whether they were manual - but, as I said before, once you know how to drive an auto, the limitations of it all but disappear ;)

[J18A]

The power loss isn't very significant - on a dyno I think we use a 7% correction on an auto to guesstimate the flywheel power.

We did a day at Curborough a couple of years ago for Club VR-4's 10th anniversary, and I was the 3rd quickest VR-4, with a pretty much standard auto, other than slightly increased boost with a basic electronic boost controller.

I can't remember whether those who were faster than me were also auto, or whether they were manual - but, as I said before, once you know how to drive an auto, the limitations of it all but disappear ;)

Oh right, yeah I guess so! Glad that yours was one of the quickest. Hope that I can do mine well when I get it. What's a reasonable price to pay for one of them? Oh and I know I've asked this question a few times now, but in regards to the auto, it can pretty much be up or down shifted whenever you like, given that the RPM isn't below idle or above redline, right?

[Confused]

I paid £2400 for mine 6.5 years ago... :)

They're still a similar kind of price today, condition is the most important thing, they're getting on a bit now, so it's probably better to pay a little more for one that's got good bodywork.

And yes, so long as the RPM won't go below idle or above the redline, you can shift up or down. It won't upshift automatically when you hit the rev limiter (it'll happily bounce off it all day long), but if your speed/revs drop too low for the gear you're in, it will automatically downshift a gear, but other than that, it'll do what you want it to.

[chris g]

And if you leave it in auto it will learn your style of driving - drive slower/more leisurely and it changes gear sooner - drive much quicker/pushing on and it holds gears for longer

[J18A]

I paid £2400 for mine 6.5 years ago... :)

They're still a similar kind of price today, condition is the most important thing, they're getting on a bit now, so it's probably better to pay a little more for one that's got good bodywork.

And yes, so long as the RPM won't go below idle or above the redline, you can shift up or down. It won't upshift automatically when you hit the rev limiter (it'll happily bounce off it all day long), but if your speed/revs drop too low for the gear you're in, it will automatically downshift a gear, but other than that, it'll do what you want it to.

Ahh that's really good! There's one on piston heads for 3k. Looks pretty good, but I'd have to wait for my NCB to come in.


And if you leave it in auto it will learn your style of driving - drive slower/more leisurely and it changes gear sooner - drive much quicker/pushing on and it holds gears for longer

From what you're saying, I can assume it can be rather economical then?

[giblet]

Mine should be up for sale in Feb/March. It's on 64k at the moment, has a few mods including an LPG conversion. Will probably fit my colour coded upgraded brembo calipers prior to the sale too.

[Dimes]

[QUOTE]From what you're saying, I can assume it can be rather economical then?/QUOTE]

I presume your tongue is firmly in your cheek....:rolleyes3
From my experience the only time I got improved economy from my car was a trip to Whitby North Yorkshire where most of the journey was at 50mph

I probably felt very similar to you about the gearbox pre ownership of a VR4.
I've now had a complete manual conversion sitting in my garage for nearly 18 months with no thoughts of swapping, until the auto goes pop that is, then it'll be three pedal time.

Ben at :eurospec: quoted me £560 + VAT for the conversion. If my memory serves the manual conversion cost me £700

If you ever make it down to see JTA in Berkhamsted ( which I advise you do ), I'm only five minutes from John so feel free to give me a shout to.

Good luck in your search for a clean and tidy VR4. As many have said...... Buy on condition alone not milage or any so called service history, the right oils and service intervals are critical with these beasts. If it looks, sounds, smells and drives good it probably is. Providing you've checked for tin worm that is.........

P.s Another thing many others have said, buy club membership. Worth every penny of £20 imo

[J18A]

Mine should be up for sale in Feb/March. It's on 64k at the moment, has a few mods including an LPG conversion. Will probably fit my colour coded upgraded brembo calipers prior to the sale too.

Ahh nice! What sort of price range are you looking for?


From what you're saying, I can assume it can be rather economical then?

I presume your tongue is firmly in your cheek....:rolleyes3
From my experience the only time I got improved economy from my car was a trip to Whitby North Yorkshire where most of the journey was at 50mph

I probably felt very similar to you about the gearbox pre ownership of a VR4.
I've now had a complete manual conversion sitting in my garage for nearly 18 months with no thoughts of swapping, until the auto goes pop that is, then it'll be three pedal time.

Ben at :eurospec: quoted me £560 + VAT for the conversion. If my memory serves the manual conversion cost me £700

If you ever make it down to see JTA in Berkhamsted ( which I advise you do ), I'm only five minutes from John so feel free to give me a shout to.

Good luck in your search for a clean and tidy VR4. As many have said...... Buy on condition alone not milage or any so called service history, the right oils and service intervals are critical with these beasts. If it looks, sounds, smells and drives good it probably is. Providing you've checked for tin worm that is.........

P.s Another thing many others have said, buy club membership. Worth every penny of £20 imo

Lol, I meant economical as in for a car of this engine size and spec. So the auto's that good? Wow, that's not bad at all. How much do LPG conversions cost on these? Yeah, I definitely will sometime next week! What does the club membership offer? Wouldn't mind given that I knew!

[giblet]

Ahh nice! What sort of price range are you looking for?

Probably £4000, I'll be posting an advert on here closer to the time.

[Dimes]

I figured you didn't mean economical in the conventional sense.
Just to give you some numbers without making you wince, you can work out the mpg if you wish but I don't need reminding. My best milage from a tank was 255 miles, I'm lucky to get 150 these days from a full tank of Nitro+.

I think giblet mentioned earlier that an LPG conversion costs £1200, that was my previous understanding also. I plan on getting mine converted soon to.
There are definitely a few specialist fitters around the club somewhere and I've heard nothing but good things from those who run LPG cars.

Club membership if you're lucky offers you a modicum of respect from fellow members............Free stickers................ Then there's all the stuff the Brains Trust has put together that you can't see as a registered user which is very very useful.

[Grid]

............Free stickers................

/lol what stickers. The knowledge base is amazing and membership is highly recommended though.

[J18A]

Probably £4000, I'll be posting an advert on here closer to the time.

Sure sounds good!


I figured you didn't mean economical in the conventional sense.
Just to give you some numbers without making you wince, you can work out the mpg if you wish but I don't need reminding. My best milage from a tank was 255 miles, I'm lucky to get 150 these days from a full tank of Nitro+.

I think giblet mentioned earlier that an LPG conversion costs £1200, that was my previous understanding also. I plan on getting mine converted soon to.
There are definitely a few specialist fitters around the club somewhere and I've heard nothing but good things from those who run LPG cars.

Club membership if you're lucky offers you a modicum of respect from fellow members............Free stickers................ Then there's all the stuff the Brains Trust has put together that you can't see as a registered user which is very very useful.

Yeah, definitely. I'm so keen on the LPG conversion now. 150 for a full tank is pretty horrendous, haha. Hmm, I'll definitely consider it, thanks!


/lol what stickers. The knowledge base is amazing and membership is highly recommended though.

Yeah, thanks! I'll look into it!

[J18A]

Got my full membership!

[Grid]

:thumbsup:

[foxdie]

Fuel economy varies wildly. In my last manual, after some tuning and hacking the Innovate MTX-L to run the car at 15.2:1 AFR at cruise I was seeing 30-32 MPG on motorway runs.

In my current completely stock auto that I've had just over a week I've filled it up 3 times and gotten 26 MPG (half long distance, half commute), 23.5 MPG (all commute) and 27.9 MPG (all long distance).

[J18A]

Fuel economy varies wildly. In my last manual, after some tuning and hacking the Innovate MTX-L to run the car at 15.2:1 AFR at cruise I was seeing 30-32 MPG on motorway runs.

In my current completely stock auto that I've had just over a week I've filled it up 3 times and gotten 26 MPG (half long distance, half commute), 23.5 MPG (all commute) and 27.9 MPG (all long distance).

That's not too bad for what the car is. I'm sure any other car with similar engine specifications would drink even more!

[Nick Mann]

Expect 18 mpg. If you expect 25 mpg there is a good chance that you will be disappointed.

[J18A]

Expect 18 mpg. If you expect 25 mpg there is a good chance that you will be disappointed.

Yes, of course! I'll be getting the LPG conversion done asap, so that shouldn't be much of an issue then!

[Davezj]

I will have a black pre facelift legnum with a factory manual box and stage II compaction clutch, LPG conversion, mapped ECU, raised boost and fuel cut, newly pro rebuilt and balanced turbo's, etec, etc , ready for sale early next year.

I will have a recaro Red interior and a brembo conversion for sale at the same time early next year.

[J18A]

I will have a black pre facelift legnum with a factory manual box and stage II compaction clutch, LPG conversion, mapped ECU, raised boost and fuel cut, newly pro rebuilt and balanced turbo's, etec, etc , ready for sale early next year.

I will have a recaro Red interior and a brembo conversion for sale at the same time early next year.

What sort of price range are you looking for?

[Davezj]

Not sure yet?

[adaxo]

Mmmm legnum manual in black and already converted to run dirt cheap, let's the fight begun /grr/STP:happy:

[J18A]

Not sure yet?

Ahh right!


Mmmm legnum manual in black and already converted to run dirt cheap, let's the fight begun /grr/STP:happy:

This is going to be tempting!