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Davezj
18-06-2016, 06:44 PM
Do you know if there are any figures for the efficiency of the eBay intercooler a 600x300x76mm
i am doing some calculations and need a figure for it.

iknow they can be estimated at 75% but does anyone have a figure from somewhere.
i remember seeing it in one of the eBay ads but I can't remember which one.

adaxo
18-06-2016, 07:22 PM
1050cfm @ 0.5psi drop.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UNIVERSAL-ALUMINIUM-ALLOY-600x300x76MM-TURBO-FRONT-MOUNT-INTERCOOLER-CORE-FMIC-/230964068457?hash=item35c6880069:g:aMwAAOxyn9BRa9I 7

Is that what you after?

Davezj
18-06-2016, 10:34 PM
Yes that is the sort of thing. Thank for taking the time to find this.

that is a fin and tube core, not sure if a bar and plate type is the same sort pressure drop.
Mine is a bar and plate.


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Davezj
22-06-2016, 01:59 PM
does anyone know if the bar and plate or tube and fin intercooler have less of a pressure drop across them and what the approximate efficiency is.

this is a tube and fin quoted pressure drop.
Designed for maximum cooling capacity while allowing for minimal pressure drops.
1050cfm @ 0.5psi drop.

so if you are running at about 650CFM the pressure drop should be less.

what sort of pressure drop do you get on an air filter, fassi1 did some pressure drop measurements on the inlet maf side of the turbos i seem to remember.

fassi1
22-06-2016, 02:09 PM
Air filter and MAF don't produce significant pressure drop, almost nothing. it was a standard snorkel that slots in to the airbox which creates the biggest restriction.

Davezj
22-06-2016, 03:29 PM
Can you remember want the total drop was across the full inlet to the entrance of the turbo

I am trying to calculate the pressure ratio so I can apply that to the correct point on a compressor map.

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fassi1
22-06-2016, 03:41 PM
There is thread somwhere with all my data.
Will try to dig it out.

Grid
22-06-2016, 03:56 PM
http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?48045-standard-air-box-clearances-how-much-cold-air-really-gets-to-it/page4&highlight=inlet+pressure+drop

fassi1
22-06-2016, 04:59 PM
There you go, I couldn't find it.

Davezj
22-06-2016, 08:07 PM
i have done the reading of other thread again and it seem that i can use about 2 psi as the pressure drop across an unmodified inlet system.

so if i assume the bar and plate intercooler is more restictive that the fin and tube i could say the bar and plate intercooler will drop 0.5 -1.0psi

so i can calculate the pressure ratio with the pressure losses included.

but i still need to get some info on the actual efficiency of the intercooler.

i suppose i could try and measure the inlet and exit temps and work it out that way.
i believe the compressor exit temp can be calculated.
we will see.

fassi1
22-06-2016, 09:36 PM
What is the purpose of your calculations Dave?
Is it just pure interest or you trying to work out potential gains?

Davezj
22-06-2016, 10:39 PM
i have all the formula to plot the results on a compressor map and determine if my required hp figure is achievable from the turbos i am considering upgrading to.

i am going to do a complete write up on how to selecting the correct turbo for your power needs based on the engine you have. this will allow anyone to have a realistic idea of what you can achieve based on facts and physics rather than personal opinion.
i am hoping to be able to create an excel spread sheet that will do all the calculation for you and do all the unit conversions for you as well.

I have been doing a lot of back ground research into what you need to know to make the decision on what turbo to use for your needs, but a lot of the info relies on using a cc for your engine capacity, work in lb/min of air flow, etc , etc.
so i want to create the speadsheet to make it easy for everybody.

i would like to make it unit neutral and as simple as possible to use.

fassi1
23-06-2016, 10:48 AM
Sounds like a task, hats off for effort.
Unfortunately that will only be estimated calculated value.

Davezj
23-06-2016, 12:52 PM
Yes I know,
This is why I am trying to get as much real data and values as possible., to minimise the guess work I mean considered assumption.


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lateshow
24-06-2016, 09:24 AM
I have this really cheap ebay style 600x300 FMIC and I think it's a restrictive part now. Pressure drop isn't an issue, the actual cooling power must be....

Davezj
24-06-2016, 10:52 AM
I have this really cheap ebay style 600x300 FMIC and I think it's a restrictive part now. Pressure drop isn't an issue, the actual cooling power must be....

You have to consider both.
the pressure drop across the intercooler is used in the calculation for the pressure ratio and the into cooler thermal efficiency is used in one of the other calculation.

So yes both are important. It seems to be noted in a few online site that on average larger intetcoolers are about 70-75% efficient so you use 0.70-0.75 in the calc


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lateshow
24-06-2016, 11:08 AM
I think that the only way to go is a HDI GT2 intercooler. Shame that they only sell them in australia/new zealand. Customs and freight.....

Bobby~d
24-06-2016, 11:23 AM
^^^ I bought that one and installed it now my VR4. To me it works great. Only downside was the cutting of the crash bar to get it to fit up properly. No other modification had to be done tho.


Dw@r!k@

Grid
25-06-2016, 10:39 PM
^^^ I bought that one and installed it now my VR4. To me it works great. Only downside was the cutting of the crash bar to get it to fit up properly. No other modification had to be done tho.


Dw@r!k@

You don't have to cut the crash bar, not unless your intercooler is thicker than the standard 76mm...

Grid
25-06-2016, 10:43 PM
Oh and by the way - once I finish putting my Legnum back together I should be able to share accurate temperature difference readings (eg. plotted vs boost pressure and throttle position) since I have now installed thermocouples before and after the intercooler (600x300x76). Even bought a differential pressure sensor to go with that, but I'd rather get the car back on the road first.

Davezj
25-06-2016, 10:44 PM
No I didn't cut my crash bar to fit my 600x300x76 intercooler either.
Just a bit of creative bracket making and metal bending of the bonnet release catch support.
No crash bar spacers used either.


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Davezj
25-06-2016, 11:05 PM
Oh and by the way - once I finish putting my Legnum back together I should be able to share accurate temperature difference readings (eg. plotted vs boost pressure and throttle position) since I have now installed thermocouples before and after the intercooler (600x300x76). Even bought a differential pressure sensor to go with that, but I'd rather get the car back on the road first.

That should prove interesting, some actual data will be very welcome.


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Bobby~d
26-06-2016, 01:48 PM
You don't have to cut the crash bar, not unless your intercooler is thicker than the standard 76mm...

This is the size or the HDI GT2 intercooler75640
I really don't think that it would fit without cutting of the crash bar tho.


Dw@r!k@

Grid
26-06-2016, 09:01 PM
This is the size or the HDI GT2 intercooler
I really don't think that it would fit without cutting of the crash bar tho.
Dw@r!k@

I see, so the HDI GT2 is quite big. You can fit a 600x300x76 FMIC wihtout cutting anything, either space the crash bar by 6mm or massage the bonnet release catch.

lateshow
27-06-2016, 07:47 AM
Oh and by the way - once I finish putting my Legnum back together I should be able to share accurate temperature difference readings (eg. plotted vs boost pressure and throttle position) since I have now installed thermocouples before and after the intercooler (600x300x76). Even bought a differential pressure sensor to go with that, but I'd rather get the car back on the road first.

I have been planning a similar setup but one question. How are you going to log the temperatures?

Grid
27-06-2016, 09:51 AM
I have been planning a similar setup but one question. How are you going to log the temperatures?

I plan to use a Raspberry Pi to talk to a thermocouple breakout board. The Rpi would do the logging, it will be a DYI project. I don't see anything off-the-shelf and sensibly priced that I could use.

Davezj
27-06-2016, 10:59 AM
I did the initial setup to use an arduino to do the monitoring inlet temps through a T/C board. But got board part way through when I bought one of ghost UTCOMP boxes that had 2 temp probe on it anyway so no need for arduino. Then the UTCOMP broke and that was the end of temp measuring for me.

I suppose I should go back to it at some point as I have spark plug temp sensors to keep track of individual cylinder temps.



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Grid
27-06-2016, 11:41 AM
I suppose I should go back to it at some point as I have spark plug temp sensors to keep track of individual cylinder temps.


How do those look like?

Edit: I guess something like this. http://thesensorconnection.com/cht-sensors/cht-sensors/cht-cylinder-head-temperature-12-and-14-mm

I was trying to have a company in Poland create something similar, but they were not willing to invest time & resources to create just a few pieces. It seems that these can be purchased though.

For me the spark plug temp sensors give a close approximation of CHT so could be very useful in determining the quality of a tune and likelihood of knock.

Davezj
27-06-2016, 01:51 PM
Yes I have pretty much what is pictured in the link.
K-Type thermocouple on a ring that will sit under the spark plug.
Probably have to remove the crush washer from the spark plug as it is about the same thickness as the thermocouple ring to ensure the plug still goes the same distance into the cylinder.
I bought my thermocouple with a 14mm ID ring. Just need to make sure they will fit down the side of my coil packs.
But that is something for another day.


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