Radiator Fan Duty cycle map

[kc427]

Hi all,

I suspect I found the Radiator Fan Duty cycle map!!! I took the reference from EVO site(http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ecuflash/411789-found-thermo-fan-switch-conditions.html), and searched from our VR4 map hex data, I found a similar map from my M/T ROM map.

Here is the xml code:

<table name="Thermo Fan Duty" category="Miscellaneous" address="124b0" type="3D" level="2" swapxy="true" scaling="Percent (128)">
<table name="Conditions" type="Static X Axis" elements="9">
<data>On1</data>
<data>On2</data>
<data>On3</data>
<data>Off1</data>
<data>Off2</data>
<data>Off3</data>
<data>A/C1</data>
<data>A/C2</data>
<data>A/C3</data>
</table>
<table name="Engine Temp" address="2d0d6" type="Y Axis" elements="12" scaling="Temp"/>
</table>

and got this:
75651




So, if it is our map, what is the meaning by On1, On2.... A/C3, etc? Would anyone take the risk to change the duty cycle and see it is correct map address or not? :thumbsup:

[Davezj]

There are a load of tables marked up as fans at the bottom of Kenneth's 1.03 rom but they do not work. There is a switch on and switch off number for the fans They are marked up as untested.
I tried them all.
I adjusted what was supposed to be the switch on and off point for the fans to make them work at a lower temp. one of the tables did something to engine perameters and made the car stall.
At this point I said to myself that is enough they don't do anything related to fan operation so I was not going to adjust them again.

My point is have a look at them in Kenneth's rom 1.03 and see if they are addressing same point as the ones you are looking at.
Be carefull

Sent from my space-aged gizmo

[lateshow]

Kenneths 1.03 foundings were said to be faulty and I think that theyre whole different addresses? I didn't have any idea that these are actually controlled by duty cycle. We will take a look of these are the same values in Kenneths 1.03.

[kc427]

Actually, I checked the wiring diagram for VR4 manual, and the fan control module shows that there is MOSFET inside. If using MOSFET, most likely, it is kind of switching on-off-on-off.... etc. In other word, the fan controller module, or the hedgehog, it is a power switching circuit inside, by converting the PWM signal(5v) from the ECU to the fan(12v), the fan controller will output the on-off-on-off to the fan. Therefore, using the duty cycle to control the speed of the fan.

Anyway, I did some tests today, and I got something good result. I read through the thread from EVO site and found that those columns represents main fan, A/C fan in different speed. But the problem is, EVO has 2 table, 1 for "stationary", and 1 for "moving". I search our whole rom and cannot find any similar table as EVO for the "stationary", so I assume we only have 1 table for our VR4. So i revised the xml, as this:

<table name="Thermo Fan Duty" category="Miscellaneous" address="124b0" type="3D" level="2" swapxy="true" scaling="Percent (128)">
<table name="Conditions" type="Static X Axis" elements="9">
<data>Main Fan 0-50kph</data>
<data>Main Fan 50-80kph</data>
<data>Main Fan 80->>kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 0-50kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 50-80kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 80->>kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 0-50kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 50-80kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 80->>kph</data>
</table>
<table name="Engine Temp" address="2d0d6" type="Y Axis" elements="12" scaling="Temp"/>
</table>


Next step, I use Evoscan, and get the log. Searched from internet about the MUT-II, and found that the request ID 84 represents Thermo Fan Duty, I added new item into the Evoscan and went out for a quick test and took the log. Finally, I got something readable from request ID 84, and guess what, the values are close to the fan duty cycle map I found. For example,

0kph, 93c, 35% fan duty cycle
14kph, 91c, 30%
56kph, 91c, 0%
82kph, 92c, 0%
12kph, 91c, 30%

You can see from the pictures below. Next, I will update the duty cycle in the map, and do some real test, but need find some spare time first. If it works, hopefully, can keep the water temp about 5-10c lower, by increasing the duty cycle and make the fan runs faster.

75658

75659

75657

75656

75655

75654

75653

[Confused]

That's fantastic news! Well done on the tests so far, and this would be an amazing addition to the ROM definition file, to be able to tweak with these settings, and get the fan to come on faster a bit sooner.

[Confused]

Which also means I might be able to utilise the A/C fan output as a secondary fan controller to control one of my fans to draw air through my chargecooler radiator! (I don't have A/C)

[kc427]

I guess not. Our main fan and A/C fan are both connected in parallel, so both fans are running from the same controller output.



Which also means I might be able to utilise the A/C fan output as a secondary fan controller to control one of my fans to draw air through my chargecooler radiator! (I don't have A/C)

[Confused]

Ah, of course... there are 2 outputs on the hedgehog, but only a single signal wire feeding it... a silly (unthoughtout) comment!!

[kc427]

Or you can buy an aftermarket fan controller module for your charge cooler radiator fan, those use water temp sensor as input to make the fan turns fast or slow.

[Davezj]

Actually, I checked the wiring diagram for VR4 manual, and the fan control module shows that there is MOSFET inside. If using MOSFET, most likely, it is kind of switching on-off-on-off.... etc. In other word, the fan controller module, or the hedgehog, it is a power switching circuit inside, by converting the PWM signal(5v) from the ECU to the fan(12v), the fan controller will output the on-off-on-off to the fan. Therefore, using the duty cycle to control the speed of the fan.

Anyway, I did some tests today, and I got something good result. I read through the thread from EVO site and found that those columns represents main fan, A/C fan in different speed. But the problem is, EVO has 2 table, 1 for "stationary", and 1 for "moving". I search our whole rom and cannot find any similar table as EVO for the "stationary", so I assume we only have 1 table for our VR4. So i revised the xml, as this:

<table name="Thermo Fan Duty" category="Miscellaneous" address="124b0" type="3D" level="2" swapxy="true" scaling="Percent (128)">
<table name="Conditions" type="Static X Axis" elements="9">
<data>Main Fan 0-50kph</data>
<data>Main Fan 50-80kph</data>
<data>Main Fan 80->>kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 0-50kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 50-80kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 80->>kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 0-50kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 50-80kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 80->>kph</data>
</table>
<table name="Engine Temp" address="2d0d6" type="Y Axis" elements="12" scaling="Temp"/>
</table>


Next step, I use Evoscan, and get the log. Searched from internet about the MUT-II, and found that the request ID 84 represents Thermo Fan Duty, I added new item into the Evoscan and went out for a quick test and took the log. Finally, I got something readable from request ID 84, and guess what, the values are close to the fan duty cycle map I found. For example,

0kph, 93c, 35% fan duty cycle
14kph, 91c, 30%
56kph, 91c, 0%
82kph, 92c, 0%
12kph, 91c, 30%

You can see from the pictures below. Next, I will update the duty cycle in the map, and do some real test, but need find some spare time first. If it works, hopefully, can keep the water temp about 5-10c lower, by increasing the duty cycle and make the fan runs faster.

75658

75659

75657

75656

75655

75654

75653

excellent results there.
I have a switch inside the car that use to switch on the extra intercooler fans i have fitted and the radiator fans at the same time and you just need to ground the black wire coming out of the hedgehog with a realy and switch.
so i can switch them on when giving it some beans.

[kc427]

Updated: Changed the fan duty cycle on the map, and then using Evoscan to read the fan speed, the values are matched. Now, I am running about 5 degree C less than original temperature.

[Davezj]

where in the xml did you put the new table definition?
or does it not matter and you can stick it at the bottom out of the way.

let me ask some nubie questions about adding code to the xml file.

the table for the fan control has been available in the rom file since we could read the rom file.
and it is only because you are telling the xml file to look at a specific memory address and form a table arounrd that address location that the a table data is readable.
so now you know where the table is in the rom and what locations the data is, you can make the data contained within that table available to manipulate.
so now ecuflash can display the table and the contents and it is a simple process of changing the values in the table to change the function of the fans operation.

so if i copy and paste the code that you posted up to the bottom of the xml it will make the fan control table available to modify.

does the location of the code affect the location of the table in the ecuflash rom window.
e.g. if add the code at the bottom of the xml file it will be at the bottom of the rom in ecuflash.

i am asking all this because i have modified roms data but never modified the xml to add additional features. so i want to make sure i am going to be doing the correct thing.

[lateshow]

I tried this also. Now fan activates more often when I gave bigger duty cycles to the values in general. I think that the fan should have a 100% dutycycle when water temp is 100 °C. :)

[kc427]

I just put the extra code into the vr4base.xml file, and actually, you can put the code anywhere, but must be within the first line <rom> and last line </rom>.

So, I simply put the extra code just before the last line </rom>:

eg,

......

<table name="Thermo Fan Duty" category="Miscellaneous" address="124b0" type="3D" level="2" swapxy="true" scaling="Percent (128)">
<table name="Conditions" type="Static X Axis" elements="9">
<data>Main Fan 0-50kph</data>
<data>Main Fan 50-80kph</data>
<data>Main Fan 80->>kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 0-50kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 50-80kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 80->>kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 0-50kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 50-80kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 80->>kph</data>
</table>
<table name="Engine Temp" address="2d0d6" type="Y Axis" elements="12" scaling="Temp"/>
</table>

</rom>


Note: the above </rom> is the last line of the original vr4base.xml file. After save the file, then open the ECUFlash again and open the rom file, and you will see the new map table at the end of the left column.



where in the xml did you put the new table definition?
or does it not matter and you can stick it at the bottom out of the way.

let me ask some nubie questions about adding code to the xml file.

the table for the fan control has been available in the rom file since we could read the rom file.
and it is only because you are telling the xml file to look at a specific memory address and form a table arounrd that address location that the a table data is readable.
so now you know where the table is in the rom and what locations the data is, you can make the data contained within that table available to manipulate.
so now ecuflash can display the table and the contents and it is a simple process of changing the values in the table to change the function of the fans operation.

so if i copy and paste the code that you posted up to the bottom of the xml it will make the fan control table available to modify.

does the location of the code affect the location of the table in the ecuflash rom window.
e.g. if add the code at the bottom of the xml file it will be at the bottom of the rom in ecuflash.

i am asking all this because i have modified roms data but never modified the xml to add additional features. so i want to make sure i am going to be doing the correct thing.

[kc427]

yeah, I also set 100% at 101°C in the first column, then 103°C in second column, and 104°C in third column.


But one problem is, I cannot confirm the exact behavior about the columns, so I just copied the column name from EVO 7-9 table. So from the left, column 1-3 refer to fan duty when A/C is off, column 4-6 are when A/C is ON, column 7-9, unknown :quasi:, don't know when will use these column 7-9




I tried this also. Now fan activates more often when I gave bigger duty cycles to the values in general. I think that the fan should have a 100% dutycycle when water temp is 100 °C. :)

[Davezj]

I just put the extra code into the vr4base.xml file, and actually, you can put the code anywhere, but must be within the first line <rom> and last line </rom>.

So, I simply put the extra code just before the last line </rom>:

eg,

......

<table name="Thermo Fan Duty" category="Miscellaneous" address="124b0" type="3D" level="2" swapxy="true" scaling="Percent (128)">
<table name="Conditions" type="Static X Axis" elements="9">
<data>Main Fan 0-50kph</data>
<data>Main Fan 50-80kph</data>
<data>Main Fan 80->>kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 0-50kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 50-80kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 80->>kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 0-50kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 50-80kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 80->>kph</data>
</table>
<table name="Engine Temp" address="2d0d6" type="Y Axis" elements="12" scaling="Temp"/>
</table>

</rom>


Note: the above </rom> is the last line of the original vr4base.xml file. After save the file, then open the ECUFlash again and open the rom file, and you will see the new map table at the end of the left column.

That is brilliant work there kenneth, and thank you very much for taking the time to explain what would be very obvious to you, but it puts my mind at rest and gives me the confidence to sdd this code to my def file.

rep comming your way for being so helpful and sharing your findings

[kc427]

no problem. Hopefully, someone can put this into the "official" xml of the ECUFlash, so that everyone can set the % on newer version of the ECUFlash :)


That is brilliant work there kenneth, and thank you very much for taking the time to explain what would be very obvious to you, but it puts my mind at rest and gives me the confidence to sdd this code to my def file.

rep comming your way for being so helpful and sharing your findings

[Davezj]

added it to me VR4base def file and i can see the table and i am sure it will work perfectly

thanks again

dave

[kc427]

you know what, I have an upgrade planning. Probably some of your guys are using SPAL radiator fan. But the standard installation only uses relay and water temp switch, so the fan either ON or OFF. SPAL has an official PWM fan switch, so it can control the fan in few level of speed. But this PWM fan switch is expensive, so I am thinking to DIY a fan controller module, similar to the original hedgehog, but can handle higher current that SPAL fan uses(maybe upto 40-50A). Final aim is to use the thermo fan mapping table to adjust the % with the us of SPAL radiator fan. Anyway, it would be a long term project for me, because there is less information about DIY a fan controller module, hahahah.....

[Davezj]

sound interesting but for now it will be good to ensure my fans come on at as lower temp as possible.

So i will be setting the 1-3 columns to
88° to 50%
90° to 75%
92° and above to 100%

primarily for track session to ensure the engine gets max cooling at all times.

i will also connect my aux intercooler fans to switch on at the same time as the rad fans so the air flow through the rads will be controllable and those of use with map switching will be able to have an ultimate track map and have the fans on all the time to keep engine temps under control.

i am so happy this fan control has been added to the available tables to adjust.

[kc427]

But one thing we may need to concern, I heard that, but not sure, Mitsubishi needs higher temperature to keep the emission low, so if need to do the MOT, these settings may need to be restored back to original.

[Davezj]

very good point, an MOT friendly setting would be good.
which is why the multi maps of the other kenneths rom 2.0 is good idea.
flick a switch and put the ECU into ultimate eco/MOT mode for fuel maps and ignition maps limited boost and now temp maps. it is the full combo.

[kc427]

although I haven't tried Kenneth's Rom 2.0, it sounds very useful to switch the tables.

[Davezj]

I will have to do a bit of logging to check the operation of the new table definition.


Sent from my space-aged gizmo

[kc427]

it should be fine, but better to confirm that :d

[Davezj]

yeh just confirm it is working i have set the full main fan section cols 1-3 to 100% so it should be easy to get the fans on full blast.

which engine temp were you monitoring with evoscan was it coolant temp or coolant temp scaled?

[ersanalamin]

well done guys, really love your work. why dont we just we replace/ delete the fan control deff file on previous vr4 base with the new fan control deff file and create the new vr4base file? its confirmed working wasnt it? just curiuos by routing evos stock deff file maybe we can revise and unfolded the new feature/deff file?

[Davezj]

Well my fans now come on much earlier in the temperature range, which is nice.
I just need to connect the relay to the intercooler fans.


Sent from my space-aged gizmo

[kc427]

I used the coolant temp scaled. I have the Defi meter, and the water temp sensor was installed on the upper hose, and the reading from the Defi is quite close to the coolant temp scaled from Evoscan, so I assume the coolant temp scaled is fine.



yeh just confirm it is working i have set the full main fan section cols 1-3 to 100% so it should be easy to get the fans on full blast.

which engine temp were you monitoring with evoscan was it coolant temp or coolant temp scaled?

[Davezj]

Excellent info.


Sent from my space-aged gizmo

[Davezj]

i have been doing a bit of logging recently and i am having an issue with the fan duty cycle.

my fans will only run at the speed that is set in the first line of the table 88° so if i set this line to 50% and the rest of the line to 100% i only ever get 50% duty cycle no matter what the coolant temp is. it is either off or 50% but it a put the AC on it will go to 100%.

not sure what is going on here but i will investigate.

[kc427]

that's strange. When I tested, it was upto around 93c, and the fan was fast enough to cool down the water temp. OK, let wait for your test result.


i have been doing a bit of logging recently and i am having an issue with the fan duty cycle.

my fans will only run at the speed that is set in the first line of the table 88° so if i set this line to 50% and the rest of the line to 100% i only ever get 50% duty cycle no matter what the coolant temp is. it is either off or 50% but it a put the AC on it will go to 100%.

not sure what is going on here but i will investigate.

[Davezj]

I will report back after I do do some proper testing.


Sent from my space-aged gizmo

[Davezj]

I have done extra testing and from what i can tell you need the first line of the table to be zero and 88 deg C then 90deg C 50% and 92deg C 100%.
the reason for 88deg C value is set to zero is when the temp is outside the range of the table the ecu uses the last value in the table which is closest to the current value. e.g. if engine is cold and and 88deg C value is 50% then the fan will always be on at 50% until the temp gets higher than 88deg C. but if the lowest value is zero the fan will be off until the temp gets above 88deg C.

well that is my finding.

[rajvr497]

really good news here guys now i can bring bring in my fan speeds a little earlier to combat all that heat....:sunny:

[rajvr497]

88 (C) needs to be left at 0 so the fans dont come while temps are lower than that value.
I am going to add 30% across the 3 columns form 90-107 (C).
this should be just enough to help with cooling....!

[Davezj]

another good option to get the heat out of the raditor and the intercooler is you can fit a couple of slimline fans to the back of the intercooler which can be activated from the existing radiator fans with the relay.
and you can use some expanding gap filling foam tape to seal the radiator to the air con condenssor or the surrounding metalwork to ensure all the air being drawn through the radiator comes from outside the engine bay.

[Confused]

I have done extra testing and from what i can tell you need the first line of the table to be zero and 88 deg C then 90deg C 50% and 92deg C 100%.
the reason for 88deg C value is set to zero is when the temp is outside the range of the table the ecu uses the last value in the table which is closest to the current value. e.g. if engine is cold and and 88deg C value is 50% then the fan will always be on at 50% until the temp gets higher than 88deg C. but if the lowest value is zero the fan will be off until the temp gets above 88deg C.

well that is my finding.
That's great to know, as I could do with constant airflow over my chargecooler radiator in the Anglia, which is mounted in front of the coolant radiator :)

[Confused]

Revisiting this as I need to get my fans working at a lower temperature on the Anglia to help keep the chargecooler colder, and I thought it would be a nice simple change without having to do any wiring changes!

I have a 7201 in the Anglia, and unfortunately the addresses are different than on the 7202/7203, so the following just gives a very wrong table!


<table name="Thermo Fan Duty" category="Miscellaneous" address="124b0" type="3D" level="2" swapxy="true" scaling="Percent (128)">
<table name="Conditions" type="Static X Axis" elements="9">
<data>Main Fan 0-50kph</data>
<data>Main Fan 50-80kph</data>
<data>Main Fan 80->>kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 0-50kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 50-80kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 80->>kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 0-50kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 50-80kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 80->>kph</data>
</table>
<table name="Engine Temp" address="2d0d6" type="Y Axis" elements="12" scaling="Temp"/>
</table>

77319

[Davezj]

I am not sure if this is the case but i am just thinking out loud.

iare the table addresses in both types of ECU in the same relative location to eachother, but the initial base address offset is different.
so if you apply the different offset to the fan table address location do you get to the correct place.

you could check this by looking a known table address in both types of ECU say the hi octane fuel map. what is the address in each type ecu and is the address relatively the same but offset by the difference in the base address.

if you get what i mean. it is worth a look.

[Confused]

OK, just in case anyone with a 7201 wants to do this...


<table name="Thermo Fan Duty" category="Miscellaneous" address="247e" type="3D" level="2" swapxy="true" scaling="Percent (128)">
<table name="Conditions" type="Static X Axis" elements="9">
<data>Main Fan 0-50kph</data>
<data>Main Fan 50-80kph</data>
<data>Main Fan 80->>kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 0-50kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 50-80kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 80->>kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 0-50kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 50-80kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 80->>kph</data>
</table>
<table name="Engine Temp" address="462a" type="Y Axis" elements="12" scaling="Temp"/>
</table>


These are now also present in the definitions linked in the Definitive ECU ROM repository (https://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?69931-Definitive-ECU-ROM-repository) thread.

[Davezj]

Great work there Garry


Sent from my MI 5s using Tapatalk

[MadAirMan]

Hi there. Unfortunately this table not work. Guys from vr-4.ru fixit it.

Below is the work table.

<table name="Thermo Fan Duty" category="Miscellaneous" address="124b0" type="3D" level="2" swapxy="true" scaling="Percent (128)">
<table name="Conditions" type="Static X Axis" elements="9">
<data>Main Fan 0-50kph</data>
<data>Main Fan 50-80kph</data>
<data>Main Fan 80->>kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 0-50kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 50-80kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 80->>kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 0-50kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 50-80kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 80->>kph</data>
</table>
<table name="Engine Temp" address="2d0d6" type="Y Axis" elements="12" scaling="Temp_*C_16bit"/>
</table>

Kenneth thank you very much for your works

[kc427]

Hi there. Unfortunately this table not work. Guys from vr-4.ru fixit it.

Below is the work table.

<table name="Thermo Fan Duty" category="Miscellaneous" address="124b0" type="3D" level="2" swapxy="true" scaling="Percent (128)">
<table name="Conditions" type="Static X Axis" elements="9">
<data>Main Fan 0-50kph</data>
<data>Main Fan 50-80kph</data>
<data>Main Fan 80->>kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 0-50kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 50-80kph</data>
<data>A/C Fan 80->>kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 0-50kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 50-80kph</data>
<data>Main+A/C 80->>kph</data>
</table>
<table name="Engine Temp" address="2d0d6" type="Y Axis" elements="12" scaling="Temp_*C_16bit"/>
</table>

Kenneth thank you very much for your works

The address for 7201 and 7202/03 are different. The address I mentioned #14 is for 7202/03. The address Garry said #41 is for 7201. So it depends on which ECU you are using.

[mitsiboyblue]

The address for 7201 and 7202/03 are different. The address I mentioned #14 is for 7202/03. The address Garry said #41 is for 7201. So it depends on which ECU you are using.Hi guys, you've brought something to light for me with engine and under bonnet heat concerns ...
I've been reading all your posts about cooling fans. Is this a common concern/issue i need to be worried about.
With all my mods and under bonnet heat problems i had last time. I've even bought a 36mm hole cutter and some rubber edging to make 5-6 holes in the bonnet along rear top edge (bulkhead area) just to get the heat out!
I burnt and shrivelled up some cable tidy along the top of the bulkhead and all through it didnt damage the wires too much it raised my concerns.
Dave O

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