Manual Conversion woes

[Piers1989]

First of all, sorry for the mega post! I will include a TL;DR at the bottom.

As some of you may know, mid November I had my car converted to manual.

Ash (AsCox) from here worked really hard and turned the car around in only 2 days while I stayed with a friend - much appreciated :)
The conversion came with a "techniclutch" clutch kit, which I understand aren't the best and there have been some instances of failure and them worming out of warranties.

I drove about 300 miles back to Newcastle gingerly, with the auto box in the boot.
All seemed well, most of the interior was still not in the car so everything was a bit more noisy than usual, (engine and exhaust especially). Bit of a whine in 4th gear but otherwise seemed fine.

After getting home and a couple of days later having a friend help me unload the auto box, I took the car for a little blast, and the first time I did an up-change from 2nd to 3rd at about 6500 rpm the clutch pedal felt strange.
I then proceeded to realise I had to press it REALLY hard to get it not all the way down, and after trying to slow and change back to 2nd it would not fully disengage.
When engaged there were no audible odd noises, but the pedal was unbelievably stiff, and even pressed as hard as possible, it wasn't disengaged entirely and you could hear the sound of the clutch skimming the flywheel/pressure plate.

I spoke in detail to Ash about this who was really helpful, and I believe he spoke to some people from the club for advice. The conclusion was that something has probably failed with the clutch and to get the box dropped again to take a look.
Since I didn't buy the clutch and was given it as new, but from a previous owner, I didn't want to try to get into it with techniclutch's reputation, so I took it to a local garage (ash is 300 miles away!) who drove the car and agreed that it was most likely clutch.
I bought a new competition clutch kit via eurospec as they did not want to take anything out without having the clutch ready, and eventually it was fitted and the old clutch removed.
I will upload pics of the old clutch, but it looks fine to me and the garage noted that there was no obvious problem.

The pedal now works as intended, is heavy-ish, but still readily depressible and it does disengage and engage fully. Happy days.
Well not entirely....
Now, when idle and engine warm, if I sit in neutral with the clutch engaged, I get a light grinding/skimming noise, and depending on how suddenly I release the clutch pedal, also a rattling sound.
From much research on here and google, it sounds like the input shaft bearing may have gone?

TL;DR


I had a manual conversion
First time I blasted the car, clutch went heavy and would not disengage
New clutch fitted, clutch works but I hear rattling/grinding noise when engaged


So, questions!

Do you agree that the current sound may be input shaft bearing? (will record it for you guy shortly)
If yes, if I'm getting whine in 4th gear, is there anything else that I should look at having replaced etc with the box out of the car?
How safe is it to drive the car in this state? Clutch does not slip at all and since it is new and ceramic I'm not going over 4500 RPM or accelerating hard.
With labour bills racking up, what tools would I need to buy to be able to remove the clutch / gearbox (and also other basic mechanic things) myself with a friend?

[Piers1989]

Video showing the sound when clutch is pressed and released (if you are playing this on a sound system with the bass turned up you may not be able to hear it clearly. It was clear being played on the tinny speaker on my phone).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGymg5oN4bg

Images of the removed clutch:
http://imgur.com/a/Y8v8X

[c0xxy]

Looking at that release bearing, the one arms snapped off it meaning it won't press straight so will need a lot of effort.
Basic sockets/spanners will do the job, something to support the engine well.
Feel free to text/call for anything your not sure of

Sent from my XT1524 using Tapatalk

[c0xxy]

Ignore that, doesn't push using the arms. But would thing the one missing would stop it sitting properly on the fork and same issue


Sent from my XT1524 using Tapatalk

[TAR]

I would also say that the release bearing was the cause of the initial failure. I assume you have a new release bearing fitted now?

I tried to listen to the noise but my rather useless laptop speakers couldn't pick it up. Can you confrm if the noise is with the clutch pressed or released?

:happy:

[Nick Mann]

What happened to the release bearing? One of the tabs has broken. But on removal or was that the issue with the techniclutch? I'd want to understand why the previous clutch failed myself...

I'd guess that the input shaft bearing is on its way out from the noise issue. I am assuming that if you press the clutch pedal (disengage) the noise stops and if you let the pedal back up (engage) then the noise starts? You can continue driving without too much of a problem, the noise will get worse as the bearing continues to degrade. At some point it will fail completely, so you want to get it sorted before then but most likely you will have several thousand miles before that happens. I'd have no trouble driving it about for a month or three whilst I worked out options and figured out refurbing the box.

You don't need anything specialist to remove the gearbox. There are a few things that would help thought. Obviously, a good socket set and spanners are important. A good selection of extension bars and breaker bars is a good help. Lifting equipment - I use a large trolley jack and an engine hoist, although I have been told in the past that you don't need the hoist. A slide hammer is useful too to remove the layshaft between the front offside driveshaft and the transfer box. Other than that - a good amount of time, an adept friend and plenty of patience and you will be able to do the job fine. It will take you longer to drop the gearbox and refit than it took Ash to do the conversion the first time you try it!


Useful info:
http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?19502-Auto-box-removal
http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthread.php?70055-Easy-Output-shaft-removal-to-remove-transfer-case-With-Pics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF4hO-G3YxA

[Piers1989]

Thanks guys :)


Looking at that release bearing, the one arms snapped off it meaning it won't press straight so will need a lot of effort.
Basic sockets/spanners will do the job, something to support the engine well.
Feel free to text/call for anything your not sure of
:happy:


I would also say that the release bearing was the cause of the initial failure. I assume you have a new release bearing fitted now?
:happy:

Somehow I missed that... I haven't ever seen one before but looking at it now I can see it is obvious.
Yes there was a full new Competition Clutch Stage 4 kit fitted including pressure plate, ceramic clutch and release bearing.
I will confirm with the garage if they broke it off, or if it was already like that. I guess it probably broke when I did the gear change though as that would be a reasonable cause of the pedal not working correctly.


I tried to listen to the noise but my rather useless laptop speakers couldn't pick it up. Can you confirm if the noise is with the clutch pressed or released?

The noise is only present when engaged (released). When you press the clutch down past bite point it goes silent.


I'd guess that the input shaft bearing is on its way out from the noise issue. I am assuming that if you press the clutch pedal (disengage) the noise stops and if you let the pedal back up (engage) then the noise starts? You can continue driving without too much of a problem, the noise will get worse as the bearing continues to degrade. At some point it will fail completely, so you want to get it sorted before then but most likely you will have several thousand miles before that happens. I'd have no trouble driving it about for a month or three whilst I worked out options and figured out refurbing the box.

Thanks Nick, that's a bit of good news anyway. I found various conflicting information online but the general consensus was as you say, good to hear it from someone trustworthy :)

Ideally I'd like to get winter out of the way (Whilst I'm sure my 335i will be fun in the snow I don't think it will be that practical), then try to deal with this.
The garage I used (small local garage) charged £200 to do the clutch job which I thought was very reasonable, so I'm toying with whether to invest in a trolley jack, stands etc, or just ask them to drop the box and then tow the car back home while I strip the box and have parts replaced.
I live about 0.5 miles from this garage, would that be a feasible idea or are there drive system components that wouldn't like it?

If I am to get the box back out again for refurb, is there anything else I should do at the same time? Am I just looking at buying the bearing kit and replacing it, or sending the whole thing off for refurb?

[Nick Mann]

To tow it the front driveshafts would need completely removing and the propshaft would need completely removing. Then more difficult you would have to support the engine somehow.
£200 was a bobby bargain! What oil did they use in the gearbox?
Personally I would get a specialist to refurb it. A bearing kit might do it but it isn't so straightforward to fit.

[Piers1989]

To tow it the front driveshafts would need completely removing and the propshaft would need completely removing. Then more difficult you would have to support the engine somehow.
£200 was a bobby bargain! What oil did they use in the gearbox?
Personally I would get a specialist to refurb it. A bearing kit might do it but it isn't so straightforward to fit.

Ok, so I guess if I'm going to send stuff off for refurbishment it's best to do this on the drive as the garage don't have the space to have the car lying around.
I don't know what oil they used, they were poor with communication and the garage owner who did the work on the car was never there when I tried to call. What oil should I be expecting them to have used?
I'll ask when I speak to the owner to confirm that the release bearing was broken before removal.


Does anyone have any recommendation for a specialist to do a rebuild?

[Nick Mann]

The oil needs to be gl-4 compliant but not gl-5. Not even gl-4 and gl-5. If the wrong oil is in there you will get issues, most obviously with gear selection.

[Piers1989]

Taken the car out today to give it a bit more of a drive since I've done a few hundred miles on the new clutch now and.........

After about an hour or driving around mixed with testing stuff in evo scan to identify a niggle (Idle Position Sensor is reading idle when I'm not quite idle and makes for an uncomfortable "cruise" at 30 when your feathering the pedal).
Also been testing the TCL / ASC a little to update the other thread, done a variety of driving from low speed traffic to high speed A road and some decent acceelration but not flat out.

On the way home 2 junctions before the house, when not driving aggressively - the same thing as above has happened again.
Pedal won't go down and is very hard. Can't get car in gear without a struggle.

Feels almost identical to before so I assume its probably sheared one of the release bearing arms off again. What would cause this??
I also noticed that the inside of the old release bearing is cracked.
http://imgur.com/a/oJVx0

[Nick Mann]

:(
Something wierd is happening.
If you can get a little fibre optic camera thing you might be able to see if it is the release arm/bearing again?

[Piers1989]

:(
Something wierd is happening.
If you can get a little fibre optic camera thing you might be able to see if it is the release arm/bearing again?

We have a little snake cam thing for work, small camera with light on it - not sure if it will be small enough but I'll give it a try tomorrow.
I take it the hole that you can view though is just at the bottom of the bell housing and if I crawl under the car I'll be able to see it?

[TAR]

I suppose that the clutch release fork may either be damaged or the mounting may have failed so its not pressing the release bearing down square.

Bit of a nightmare for you at the moment. I hope you get it sorted without too much trouble this time.

:happy:

[Piers1989]

Ok so I called in at the garage and apparently they did break the release bearing as it would not release.
They confirmed they did try the correct procedure with wedging a screwdriver between bearing and spring.
Peter from the garage asked for my key so he could go take a look and has it working again.
Told me he bled it and adjusted it (clutch) and it seemed fine, which I agree it does now!
I wouldn't expect the clutch to not press and go hard with air in the lines though?
Keeping an eye on it but perhaps good news.

[Nick Mann]

The pedal goes soft with air in the lines. It doesn't disengage properly though. In extreme cases the pedal would drop to the floor and stay there.

[Piers1989]

The pedal goes soft with air in the lines. It doesn't disengage properly though. In extreme cases the pedal would drop to the floor and stay there.

That's what I thought. I physically couldn't press it past about half way down.

Used the car for about 1.5 hours of driving today (about 30-40 miles) and it's seemed fine again...

[Piers1989]

Ok, finally had a chance to get snake cam into action!

Through the hole in the bottom of the casing I took the first 3 pics - from my untrained eye everything looks good. Fork is sitting nicely with the end of the form sitting pretty much lined up on the release bearing.
The other pics I took though a hole that looks likes been drilled on the upper side of the casing - It was just big enough to get snake cam through.
Pic of hole in bell housing here: http://imgur.com/a/OJc8c

The other pics, it looks like the fork is WAY too far past the release bearing.
There is already visible metal fatigue on the release bearing sides where my old one sheared as the "thinner" bit of the clutch fork is way past the bearing not touching anything, so the bit that is actuating it is much closer to the pivot point and much thicker than it should be?
Also the fork looks kinda "scraped" on the end?
Fork / bearing pics here: http://imgur.com/a/LLkdr

I'm not a mechanic so maybe I'm wrong but that's how it looks to me! I assume the fork is made of a solid material, so how could it be so out of place on one side and not the other?

EDIT: Realised I think the hole isn't as high as I thought, and I'm still looking at the lower part of the assembly but from a different angle, so we can see the fork coming towards the camera, if that's the case it isn't too long etc, but there is definite fatigue on that bearing arm thing.

[Piers1989]

And here is a video from snake cam which in parts is a little clearer (but generally low res, upside down and shakey as hell! Sorry...)

Also had someone press the pedal to see movement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdKm00EPtbw

[Nick Mann]

I'm struggling to see anything obviously bad.