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Thread: Single vs Twin Turbo

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    Single vs Twin Turbo

    I've always said twin turbos is a much more elegant solution than a single turbo, and with some of the members going with a single turbo setup at the moment, I though this article may create some discussion.


    Single or Twin Turbochargers on a V Configuration Engine

    It is no secret that APS is developing a single turbocharger system for the Nissan 350Z, however this new offering may create confusion in the market place regarding the benefits of single versus twin turbochargers. The following discussion sets out to explain the strengths of each approach so that APS customers can make an informed decision as to which application is appropriate for their requirements.

    Turbochargers demand a good deal of high energy exhaust gas to drive the turbocharger turbine. Exhaust gas energy is a function of the mass flow rate of exhaust gas, gas temperature and velocity. The higher each of these exhaust gas parameters, the greater the energy available to spin the turbines. This means that the exhaust manifold design and the proximity of the turbocharger to the exhaust ports is critical in the overall performance of the turbocharger.

    A "V6" configuration engine such as that found on the 350Z has 3 cylinders on one bank and another 3 on the other bank. This means that for the optimum turbocharger operation in terms of turbocharger response and resultant engine power over the entire RPM range, a turbocharger must be located in close proximity to each bank of cylinders - ie twin turbochargers.



    In a twin turbocharger configuration, each turbocharger is located close to the respective cylinder bank for the optimum exhaust gas energy transfer to each turbocharger

    A single turbocharger configuration on the other hand necessitates the exhaust gasses from each bank travel a longer distance than that of twin turbochargers located at each bank. The total distance travelled is determined by the placement of the single turbocharger but in short, exhaust gasses from one bank must travel across the width of the engine bay and merge with the gasses from the other bank before finally entering the turbocharger. This has a negative impact on the total exhaust gas energy available to drive the single turbine.

    No doubt the twin turbocharger approach is the optimum configuration in terms of overall engine performance, however there are cost advantages to consider with the single turbocharger approach.

    To offset the affect of lower exhaust gas energy available to drive the single turbine, the size of the single turbocharger must be reduced when compared to the total turbocharger capacity of twin turbochargers in order to achieve similar low to mid RPM engine performance to that of a twin turbocharger configuration.

    Whilst the above discussion applies equally to any modern "V" configuration engine, when dealing specifically with the 350Z engine, we can now discuss turbocharger sizes that are meaningful and applicable to this engine.

    The APS twin turbos have approximately 80 lbs per minute total air flow (resulting in 800 flywheel horsepower) where as a single turbo which would produce a reasonable low to mid range power curve would be limited to around 60 lb per minute mass air flow sized turbo (resulting in 600 flywheel horsepower).

    There are 3 different scenarios to consider:

    To achieve similar low to mid RPM power and turbocharger response as the APS Twin Turbochargers (80 lb per minute = 800 hp) one would need to specify a single turbo of around 60 lb per minute = 600 crankshaft maximum Horsepower.
    To achieve the same outright horsepower as the APS Twin Turbochargers, one would need to specify a single 80 lb per minute turbocharger - which is a massive turbocharger for a 3.5 L engine. The down side is that the low to mid RPM response would be greatly compromised.
    To achieve higher horsepower than the APS Twin Turbochargers, one would need to specify an even larger single turbocharger - say around 90 lb per minute mass air flow. This turbocharger would have an operational range starting at 5,000 RPM (no useable power to speak of below 5,000 RPM). In this case, the engine would need to turn out to over 9,000 RPM to have a worthwhile power band. This single turbocharger may be viable in a competition engine which spends little time below 5,000 RPM, but be unpleasant on the road in most driving conditions.
    There will be a crossover point on the power curve if the single turbocharger is significantly larger than the twin turbochargers - and only in case 3 (where the single turbocharger is larger in total air mass flow rate than the twin turbochargers). This cross over point will be at some point around 6500 RPM (best estimate only).

    But getting back to production specification - a single 60 lb per minute single ball bearing turbocharger (600 flywheel horsepower turbo) - its power curve will always be below that of the twin ball bearing turbochargers (800 flywheel horsepower total) at the same boost level. It's virtually impossible to achieve the same low to mid range power and turbocharger response from a large single turbocharger in a V configuration engine.

    If the single turbocharger is matched to produce strong low to mid range performance (which would be the wise choice) then obviously the turbocharger specification will need to be precisely matched to the engine capacity. Bottom line, a large single turbocharger matched for strong low to mid range performance on the Z V6 engine will always have a power ceiling of around 600 flywheel horsepower (around 500 wheel horsepower).

    Regardless of the single turbocharger size, the real issue pertaining to high horsepower on a single turbo conversion for the Z is the very limited space available to package an exhaust downpipe capable of producing over 500 wheel horsepower. This is where we see the real limitation of the single turbo design for the Z in comparison to the twin turbo approach, unless you're prepared to cut the body sheet metal and make some fairly radical mods.

    It's all very well to have an large single turbo, but when it's limited to around 500 horsepower due to a restrictive exhaust down pipe, you'll never see the real potential of the large single turbocharger.

    Hopefully this helps to put the single turbo in perspective - and to give one an idea of the challenges that are presented to APS as turbocharger system design specialist.

    In our view, a well designed single intercooled turbo system with a well matched turbo would be a very streetable package on the V6 350Z engine up to around 600 flywheel horsepower. This is a great option for the 350Z enthusiast who desires engine performance that is superior to the lower cost supercharger options - but at a similar price point.

    That said, the twin turbochargers utilized in the APS Intercooled Twin Turbo system deliver superior low to mid RPM engine power but with a higher power potential of up to 800 flywheel horsepower (rather than 600 flywheel horsepower of the single turbocharger configuration). This of course comes at a higher initial purchase cost.

    APS is committed to delivering either option to the 350Z performance enthusiast.


    http://www.airpowersystems.com.au/350z/turbo/turbo.htm

  2. #2
    valmes's Avatar

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    Great write up...

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    Single v twin.

    There's no denying that the twin is the better setup on a V engine. But not everybody chooses this option. Why?

    Someone contemplating which way to go needs to take into account the following before starting

    Budget

    What's involved and likely complications

    Skills at one's disposal (if you're using other people you need to feel comfortable at the start that they're going to be able to complete what you've requested competently and the same applies if you're doing it yourself).

    Space available

    Ease of further upgrade

    End goal

    Why have I chosen to go single turbo?

    Budget:
    Cost of turbo cheaper
    Removal of engine not necessary
    Fabrication work cheaper

    What's involved and likely complications:
    Engine removal not necessary
    battery move to boot area
    Std manifolds re-usable
    Modification of inlet manifold
    resolve heat issues
    fabrication of downpipe, IC pipes, wastegate pipes, ex manifold to turbo pipes,routing of downpipe
    throttle body location
    turbo choice

    Skills
    If your car's not mainstream it's hard to find a tuning firm that's enthusiastic and not going to rob you. I've used a welder locally that I've known for many years. He's never done anything like this before but listens to what I require and the finished article is what I requested. The time he spends on it depends on his workload but I'm in no rush. It's not going to cost a fortune!!

    Space available
    Being transverse means that the space available to the front and back of the engine is limited. Removal and fitting of the std turbos is arkward enough as it is. Only those that have fitted larger turbos will be able to say whether engine out is necessary to get the back turbo off if need be.

    Ease of upgrade
    Location of single turbo makes changing the turbo as easy as it can get. If choice of turbo I have made is poor all of the pipework isn't redundant.

    End goal
    Car that is going to give considerably more power than std but hasn't cost a fortune and i can drive daily.



    As the article says, "a well designed single intercooled turbo system with a well matched turbo would be a very streetable package on the V6"

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    Valmes installed a pair of TD04's into his car and didn't need to change the manifolds, although he did remove the engine to install them. I think the overall price of going with a TD04 setup is probably the same as going with a single ball bearing turbo, and will probably yeild similar results. Over here second hand TD04's are available for $200 each, you'd probably want to spend another $200 reconditioning them. A Garrett ball bearing turbo that can support 500hp is normally around the $2000 new, or about $1500 on trademe (our ebay).

    A new Garrett GT25R will cost about $1200, so it is a more expensive option than a large single, the important question is just how much better is it?

    I've decided that if I change the turbos, those are the 3 options worth pursuing, it all comes down to just how much money is available at the time, and if it is possible to fit the GT25R's in. New exhaust manifolds will need to be made up no matter what option I go for, as well as downpipes, but most other stuff should be able to stay the same with a twin turbo setup, I might need to replace the fans on the radiator, and maybe push the firewall back a little, but there shouldn't be much more work needed than that. As you said, with a single there is a lot more work that needs to be done that will probably offset the cheaper turbo.

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    Just fit some 300ZX T25's. They make good power and have enough space inside them to upgrade them to T28's or something. Thats what I would go for.

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    If you're going to do it, do it right...


    Single turbo mani, GT35/40R, fuelling to cope, and stop mucking around with small gains...

    Just go nuts! Price of a 35/40R is the same as a little wee T28. Making a manifold isn't hard, but all I ever read on this forum is people wanting bolt - on mods or wanting someone else to design and make something so they can copy it. Its not actually hard to do!

    And to anyone who bitches about lag, whens the last time you tried to overtake using 2500rpm in 5th? If you want to go fast, you use the top half of the tacho anyway. The legnum is a 2.5 6cyl engine - it can spool up a big turbo a lot better than you think.

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    I was thinking of a GT3040 rather than a 3540R, lets say that you had the money to spend, would you go with custom manifolds and a GT25R or 28R, or a single GT3040R or 3540R with custom manifolds

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    I would rather stick to twin setup rather than a big single. Cause if you think about it if you get a big single the engine can only handle about 500HP so you wouldn't be able to run full boost so you have got a big arse turbo and cant utilise all the power it makes so it is a waste of turbo. It would only mainly be used for looks. "Look at me I have got a big turbo ". Thats my opinion anyway.

    Has anyone thought of using a single greddy TD-06. They must be good if alot of Japanese tuners use them. The JUN hyper lemon Evo 5 ran a greddy TD-06, I have also seen a mid 9 sec street drag GTR from japan which had 2 greddy TD-06 turbos and that made nearly 1000HP?.

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    TTV6VR4 - If I were you, I'd know what I'm talking about BEFORE I started talking. Makes you look less stupid that way

    Brad - Personally, I'd just go big single. Like I've said, the brand new pricing on garrett turbos is the same across the board up to around 600hp capable turbos.

    Going single means theres simpler plumbing, only one turbo to be purchased, only one exhaust to worry about, i just don't see the point going twin. For all the ranting people do about runner lengths and so on - get real. The manifold on my MR2 has each runner about 50cm long, once you add up all the bends in it. Subbys are longer still, and I dont see them having issues. Heat loss - try wrapping or coating it.

    Here's an example of a customers car, might be kinda relevant. Evo 6, 2.3L stroker engine, garrett GT 35/40 ball bearing turbo. Max power was 550hp at the wheels @ 8500, BUT - it was making full boost, and useful power by 4500. Try 250hp at the wheels, at 5000rpm... Thats more than what most of the cars here will be making at maximum power.

    Best car to compare it to would be a GTS25T skyline. Its a 2.5 6 Cyl, and reasonably strong as well, much like the 6A13. We have a few customers running GT 30/40's on these cars, with the fuel to cope. On lowish boost (sub 20psi) they're making in the region of 280 rwkW, and still having very streetable engines to drive with. A stock car makes full boost by 3000rpm ish, this turbo only changes the threshold by around 800rpm.

    Larger turbos aren't the big scary monsters some people think they are.... Even my MR2 is running a TD-06 25G, and its making full boost by 4500, and is just shy of 400hp @ the wheels on 18psi. Thats just a poxy little 2L 4cyl - try a 2.5 V6 and you're onto a winner.

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    Hey ako why did you sell the VR4. Had you had enough of them. Did you manage to get the driveline fixed on your last one?.

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    you maybe interested to see this...

    http://www.uq.net.au/whocares/dyno.jpg

    single turbo 6A13 FTO running stock internals

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    ako, I'll send you off an email later on tonight regarding this sort of stuff. Thanks man.

    ABIM, thats very impressive, I wonder how difficult it would be to drive a front wheel drive car with that much power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TTV6VR4
    Hey ako why did you sell the VR4. Had you had enough of them. Did you manage to get the driveline fixed on your last one?.
    Sold the VR4 cause partly I felt like a change, plus it annoyed me at the drags so I put it up for sale, it sold in 3 days flat before I had the chance to change my mind. The next owner blew the rear diff launching 2 weeks after buying it , I swear that car was haunted.

    brad - you have email.

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    zentac's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllBeItMine
    you maybe interested to see this...

    http://www.uq.net.au/whocares/dyno.jpg

    single turbo 6A13 FTO running stock internals

    Not a good example, both single turbo 6A13 FTO`s are having loads of problems
    Richard Batty
    2.5ltr V6 Turbo FTO

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    What are those problems richard?

    A question for you as well as you might be more familiar with this, any problems running Mivec with boost? I want to convert my VR-4 into mivec, by using the heads off a 6a12 mivec.

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    This argument is CONSTANTLY being brought up on here.


    Single: Only pay for one turbo, dont have to arse around pulling the engine just to take off the back turbo, only one turbo to go wrong, cheaper in the first place to do, much easier to swap turbos later on, dont have to touch anything structural on the car

    Twin: Have to pay for two turbos in the first place, there's f-all room for the back one, have to have a ****eload more plumbing in the engine bay, no gains over a single... At all.

    There is AMPLE room for manifolding, the turbo itself, and all the intake pipework for a single (just sit it over the gearbox) - with a twin setup, even in factory form there is space issues.

    Hrmm, seems like a tough one to me... And Zentac, how could a single turbo setup be attributed to problems which wouldn't accur with twin? Here in NZ there's been a few TT VR4's converted to single, its not exactly rocket science doing any of this.

    Brad - Honestly... Spend the money you'd spend on faffing about with mivec, on setiing up a decent turbo setup. You might gain 20 or 30hp with mivec, but for the cash you'd spend its incredibly poor bang for your buck. A set of camshafts would set you back around $800 (kelfords), last time I saw a mivec head they were asking around $2K for it.

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    zentac's Avatar

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    1st of all, the main problem has been with the heat a single turbo give off and its close proximity to a lot of wiring, there have melted cables, connecters etc... even after shielding. The other problem is the excess power snapping drive shafts

    Ive seen a couple of mivec turbos but only low boost ones, The new EVO`s do it well but thier mivec system is different to the FTO..... also I cant see the point personally, just get a bigger turbo.

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    i've been talking to a guy who knows his way around engines and he tells me that the turbo system in the VR4 will always be flawed because the optimum setup is always going to be a single turbo because a twin is basically cutting the preasure in half. it made a heap of sense after he explained it to me, but then he went on to say that because of the VR4 mounting and it being a 'V' the piping needed to setup a single turbo would defeat the purpose, the same as mounting a front-mount on a Subaru, too much piping. after some thinking and a few beers he gave me a strange idea, why not take an HKS bolt-on supercharger made for the Nissan 350Z and plum it into a 6A? it made me think, no lag, more power, less piping, only thing is there is no bolt-on kit so it would be a case of making it fit, but hey, i reckon it's worth a look.

  19. #19
    zentac's Avatar

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    one of the FTO guys has done it on a 6A12 (similar engine) and its taken him years to get it right.

  20. #20

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    While half the pressure goes to each turbo, you can always run smaller turbos which are designed for lower air flow. I personally wouldn't go with a supercharger, too much work and not as many people are familiar with them.

    I still think the best possible option is a pair of GT25R's or GT28R's, the problem is cost at the end of the day.

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