braking

[SGHOM]

I'm sorry if I open up a 'can of worms' here, but having followed most of you on track.... I've got to say that most, if not ALL of you are cr@p at braking.
If we had access to the vids... I'd prove my point more clearly.

All of you brake far too early. & thats proved by the number of threads regarding worn pads... fade.. etc.
I have cheap pads in my car, & I guarantee I will outbrake most of you lot on the track. all circuits have braking points/cones..... just ignore them you need to brake VERY hard, & VERY late. that way, it better's your lap time & saves on your discs & brakes.
At combe, I was locking up in all the corners.... outwitting the ABS.... & I had no problem with wear or fade. Just ask Barry how my brakes performed.

Sorry if I upset anyone ....... but you all really need to get to grips with proper braking & tracking.

[Kieran]

There's a couple of comments I have here Derek.

You may have cheap pads.... But you also have Brembo Discs and calipers, so it figures you've got the ability to outbrake most other VR-4s and for a longer period of time. Or are you saying that with standard VR-4 discs and pads, you could also outbrake people and not get fade?

Going on from that, how does early, moderate braking exacerbate toasted pads and discs, brake fade, etc. versus standing on the brakes at the last second?

I'm interested to hear your logic here.... Not that it matters to me per-se, it's just that what you've said doesn't make sense to me?

[SGHOM]

I'm interested to hear your logic here.... Not that it matters to me per-se, it's just that what you've said doesn't make sense to me?

Most of us who track cars have uprated brakes K. either kads, brembo's, AP etc. but most, if not all of you brake far too early.
At combe for example.... japfest... there is no need to brake before the avon rise. our cars will cope with that at speeds of up to 120 mph. [not that many of us reached that !! ] Just stamp on the brakes before the turn in point, ignore the braking cones.
trust me........ I'm a welder !

[Physician]

Yea, I agree with Derek ........ but even HE brakes too early sometimes - he could have just steered past this car without braking and losing pace. Let alone making me fill my pants.

Derek's big moment

[Throbbe]

Going on from that, how does early, moderate braking exacerbate toasted pads and discs, brake fade, etc. versus standing on the brakes at the last second?

Assuming that heat generation is directly proportional to stopping effort (which I strongly suspect isn't the case) you'd only be generating the same amount of heat by braking late and harder, but a greater proportion of your lap would be off the brakes, and therefore greater cooling time.

[Spirit]

I can follow what you're saying Derek.....but at the end of the day it's what the driver feels most comfortable with.

If we were employed by a professional racing team then your points are valid, but we're not and all of us do it just for fun.

The only occassion I would want to change my current style is at the Ring, where a mixture of later braking and several other factors could reduce my time to a sub 9mins, but elsewhere I for one feel more in control braking earlier and I guess in a way have a few more fractions of a second to correct any mistakes than your suggested style.

[Paul Beazer]

I fail to see how braking LATER and HARDER would be kinder to you pads and disks, not mention extend their life?
Simple physics means if you brake harder and later you will generate more heat (and increased wear on the pads / disks). The heat generated from friction in pads / disks will be higher as the brakes have to do more work to reduce the forward momentum.
Also surely tyre wear will be increased as you exceed the grip (friction) of the rubber in the tyres also?
Also why does the ABS not work? I always thought it wasa bit oversensitive?

Please feel free to explain how and why? Im looking proof here!!!

[White Lightning]

but elsewhere I for one feel more in control braking earlier and I guess in a way have a few more fractions of a second to correct any mistakes than your suggested style.

Nail. Head.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I won't dispute that harder/later braking will give better lap times but *if* something goes wrong there would be no margin for error. And I for one would rather not risk killing the car for the sake of an extra few seconds. I was starting to brake later and later on each lap at Combe but even by the end I was still braking just before the braking cones. I prefer to have the safety margin.

[Nick Mann]

Hmmm..... I could have maybe braked less, but not much later. I was chirping the tyres in most braking areas. I seem to recall overtaking other VR4's, but not getting overtaken by one?

But this isn't about the size of our cahonas!

Having driven a VR4 with grooved discs and DS2500s, then a VR4 with Brembos, there is no comparison. The brembos just don't fade! I will be trying cheap pads soon - I have purchased pads for the front Brembos for £35. I'll let you all know!

[richy rich]

I for 1 drive the same way as D but it is completely up to the individual how he/she is driving, most also need to drive the car home.

D and I like to drive hard on track and we do.

I for 1 have still have got the same discs and 2nd set of pads on my car when I changed them nearly 2 years ago. Ive done silverstone donny and combe and nearly 20k miles.(national grooved and DS2500 witch will be changed soon but i still have a lot of pad left)

As for braking cones what are they? at combe i was past them before i started braking.

[WildCards]

I think it's a case of balancing things out. Different cars, different corners and different drivers all dictate a different take on the 'brake as late as possible as hard as possible' mentality, I think your essentially right D, but you have to consider these aren't race cars and we aren't race drivers.

IMO a text book braking technique would be:
1. Brake with a consistent hard pressure in a straight line before the corner
2. Come off the brake let the vehicle regain it's composure and turn in
3. When the car settles into the corner start to apply pressure consistently to the accelerator
4. Make the the corner as open as possible and all actions before, during and after the corner should be made as smoothly as possible. Jerky movements and reactions cost time.

Something I know I personally don't do, especially during my first few laps (usually when karting as i'm well aware of my limited track day experience) is to use the full width of the track when exiting a corner.

[WildCards]

Heres some interesting reading on cornering basics, road based advice but alot of it should help, it has me anyway. Not sure it should be in this thread, but Dereck's topic got me thinking.

Cornering Basics 1
Cornering Basics 2
Cornering Basics 3

[SGHOM]

but Dereck's topic got me thinking.

Spell my name right stephen.

[WildCards]

Spell my name right stephen.

tut, alight then... stupid grey haired old man.

Another quote which explains things a little better;

"The accpeted method for braking while on a track is to get all your braking and down changes over and done with in a straight line before turning into the corner. Then gradually coming back onto the throttle through the corner. Braking whilst turning in, will in most cases only make the car more unstable and consequently slower through the corner. Braking whilst turning may 'feel' like the car is going faster beacuse it is unsettled and begins to slide, but if braking and turn is done smoothly and the car is not sliding it will actually be travelling faster. Also beacasue the car is not sliding you will able to get back on the power sooner at the exit of the corner.

After all, if the car is already turned in, going round the corner and not in the process of spinning or crashing, why do you need to be on the brakes?"

[Throbbe]

Not read the linky's yet, so apologies if it's said there, but turning as you come off the brakes preloads the suspension, so cutting out the stage 2 shown above (allowing the car to settle before the turn-in).

It does have to be said that I don't have the talent to do it properly*. Just trying to get into the habit of left foot braking for now to smooth things out.

I know exactly what people are saying about a margin for error. If you want to learn about going fast, buy something you don't mind crashing! Having properly tested my new Brembos a few times the other night, it did suprise me just how quickly the car will pull up, a lot faster than the speedo can drop for a start, but that was in a straight line with no other cars about, not sure I could pull up that hard while thinking about the next corner (and the two after that of course).


* I could on a bike, but I was young and fearless then! Besides, the real experts were locking up their fronts to get the bike to pitch into the corner quicker, which just seems looney to a mortal like me!

[Wodjno]

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz




This thread is boring

And is going nowhere


Fast

[SGHOM]

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz




This thread is boring

And is going nowhere


Fast

I've seen you drive.... & you go nowhere, fast.

[White Lightning]

That's not true Derek. Glenn always brakes as late as possible ...

... just before he actually hits the car in front

[Physician]

... just before he actually hits the car in front

I never seem to have cars in front of me ............

[White Lightning]

I never seem to have cars in front of me ............

I don't think Glenn does have for long