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Thread: Staged Upgrades

  1. #81
    Davezj's Avatar

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    So are you saying a the car in question is factory stock car making 11psi, is it a manual car.
    224 atw is high for a uk car, it would be more like 200 - 210 max in the uk. On a 3rd gear dyno run. 4th might make it higher but most uk dyno days are done in 3rd gear.
    This is why I made the joke that it must be something in the air down at the bottom of the world in New Zealand.

    On a more information point of view and out of interest are dyno runs generally done in 3rd or 4th gear just I as a general feel for what people do.
    Have you ever done any 3rd to 4th gear comparisons.

    I have only done the odd check as time is normally tight when doing dyno days But 4th gear seems to get about 10hp more than 3rd gear run on a stock car over here in the uk. Which I thought was interesting.
    Does the dyno operator have to change something in the dyno setup if the run is done in a different gear or should the dyno machine not care what gear the run is done in.
    Just interested.

    Bye for Now!

  2. #82
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    horsepower is horsepower regardless of gear as horsepower is just a measure of work done.
    the gear only effects the measured torque. and the measured torque will only change if it is not referenced to crankshaft speed. referencing torque to crank speed means you will get the same the same torque reading regardless of gear ratio.
    for example do a dyno run in fist gear and your torque figure will be off the charts high due to the large mechanical advantage of the gear ratio multiplying the torque, do it in 5th gear and the torque will be low due to the wheels being at a mechanical disadvantage due to the overdriven 0.8:1 ratio
    but as said above the engine makes the same horsepower regardless of gear.
    as you probably know horsepowe=torque/5252, so as you change up gears the torque at the wheels decreases due but the speed at the wheels also increases so the horsepower stays constant
    most of the time dyno pulls are done in 4th gear as most cars have as close to all that matters a 1:1 4th gear ratio
    that being said there is somewhat of a difference between rolling road and hub dynos as rolling roads have to deal with inertia of wheels and tyres as well as tyre size and pressures coming into play. and if the dyno is incorrectly calibrated for gear/diff/final drive ratios there will be variances.

    probably a rubbish explaniation but I hope you follow

  3. #83
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    There are always differences between rolling roads. And for true comparison the cars should be tested on the same dyno on the same day by the same operator. And whatever the reason, UK power figures are always significantly lower than NZ. 11psi would never achieve 224bhp at the wheels in the UK, although on a manual car you might get close.

  4. #84

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    Very well put. I wish I could have explained i that well a few weeks ago. I was led to believe that 3rd was the best gear to do a dyno run and also that because I had mine done in Fourth (Auto tiptronic) was then advised the figure needed to be reduced by 10% as it shouldhave been carried out in 3rd. I was a little peeded off as most people who read this will recall. I am taking mine again in the new year, any good (accurate) advice from anyone will be taken on board. I will post the results sheets.
    Just one question, how much HP do the light covers add? LOL.
    Live, love, learn but most of all.... Plan.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam.Findlay View Post
    horsepower is horsepower regardless of gear as horsepower is just a measure of work done.
    the gear only effects the measured torque. and the measured torque will only change if it is not referenced to crankshaft speed. referencing torque to crank speed means you will get the same the same torque reading regardless of gear ratio.
    for example do a dyno run in fist gear and your torque figure will be off the charts high due to the large mechanical advantage of the gear ratio multiplying the torque, do it in 5th gear and the torque will be low due to the wheels being at a mechanical disadvantage due to the overdriven 0.8:1 ratio
    but as said above the engine makes the same horsepower regardless of gear.
    as you probably know horsepowe=torque/5252, so as you change up gears the torque at the wheels decreases due but the speed at the wheels also increases so the horsepower stays constant
    most of the time dyno pulls are done in 4th gear as most cars have as close to all that matters a 1:1 4th gear ratio
    that being said there is somewhat of a difference between rolling road and hub dynos as rolling roads have to deal with inertia of wheels and tyres as well as tyre size and pressures coming into play. and if the dyno is incorrectly calibrated for gear/diff/final drive ratios there will be variances.

    probably a rubbish explaniation but I hope you follow
    That is interesting Adam, this begs the question is this theory or particle testing of the different runs in different gear having exactly the same hp figures. I an not saying what you have said is wrong at all, it sounds quite logical.
    However I witnessed 2 back to back runs in 4th and 3rd get and the 3rd gear run was 10hp down on the 4th gear run. 10hp is to much to loose on back to back runs just to be dyno operator error, surely.
    I will have to do the testing for myself as I thought this would be enough evidence for the difference to be believed.
    This is why I asked about the dyno setup needing to be changed if the runs are done in different gears.
    It does not sound right that the is a difference to hp in different gears because as you say all you doing is changing the way the hp is being delivered, nothing on the engine is being modified between runs so why is there a difference.
    @Nick Mann
    Can you remember what gear the dyno runs were done in on the area52 day recently.

    I know unscrupulous dyno operators can bump up hp figures at will by changing things like inlet temp artificially. To make a difference. But I don't believe this was going on in Leeds when the runs were done.
    More testing required I think.

  6. #86
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    there will be slight differences in power due to small differences in drivetrain loss in each gear.
    Ive never done back to back 3rd/4th/5th gear runs. as much as I would love to see the difference I just dont have the money to hire a hub or rolling road dyno to do this.
    however the engine dyno should arrive at work in the coming weeks

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam.Findlay View Post
    there will be slight differences in power due to small differences in drivetrain loss in each gear.
    Ive never done back to back 3rd/4th/5th gear runs. as much as I would love to see the difference I just dont have the money to hire a hub or rolling road dyno to do this.
    however the engine dyno should arrive at work in the coming weeks
    you luck man, that is an amazing tool to have at you disposal.
    it would be great to actually quantify the changes you make to your engine before and after.
    lucky lucky man, very jealous.

    so a spare stock engine would be a good item to have to be able to test out your modified and bespoke parts on.

    to all other reads of the thread sorry for the hijack it is not realy on topic. but this bit of news might lead to more upgrade parts made available from the AFVR4 garage.

  8. #88
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    Sorry, Dave, I don't know. I think mine was done in 4th but don't quote me. I was sitting in the back of the car at the time, but I was more interested in the way Jason was smoothing my boost curve.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Mann View Post
    ...but I was more interested in the way Jason was smoothing my boost curve.
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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Mann View Post
    Sorry, Dave, I don't know. I think mine was done in 4th but don't quote me. I was sitting in the back of the car at the time, but I was more interested in the way Jason was smoothing my boost curve.
    smoothing your curve, was he making it staight, lol.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davezj View Post
    you luck man, that is an amazing tool to have at you disposal.
    it would be great to actually quantify the changes you make to your engine before and after.
    lucky lucky man, very jealous.

    so a spare stock engine would be a good item to have to be able to test out your modified and bespoke parts on.

    to all other reads of the thread sorry for the hijack it is not realy on topic. but this bit of news might lead to more upgrade parts made available from the AFVR4 garage.
    Will be doing development on my own engine to start with but if I can slap together some of the spare bits I have to make a complete stock motor I may do some before and after tests on parts such as cams. ported heads etc
    my main intrest will be seeing where the cams like to be setup with adjustable gears, ie finding the sweet spot in these motors

  12. #92
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    i have been reading up on cam gear setting and it looks like a right pain to setup correctly be measuring all the clearances between valve and piston with a dial indicator.
    there are some great videos showing the process on a 4g63 engine from an eclipes i think.
    i will see if i can find them.

    the series of videos are from jafromobile there is some great info in them and it shows the work involved in doing the sort of work that you are doing in the porting and polishing as well, the hours and hours and hours of time it takes to do.

    Here is the degreeing the cams video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbWWCKPuZG4

  13. #93
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    Yeah Dave I port cylinder heads, make and setup cams for a living..

  14. #94

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    I think this thread should be flagged for a review / update, I feel the "stages" are outdated based on recent progressions (last 12 months or so) in tuning / modifications of our cars.

    Infact, anyone object to me starting a new thread with more up-to-date information?

  15. #95

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    A new one was started last night

    Lol

  16. #96

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    I've seen 2 cars with similar BHP

    Both had Manual Gearbox Both similar year 1994 to a 1995

    The 1994 one kicked ass
    Both were similar mods except for the usual filter and exhaust brand differences

    I can explain it but most owners will go nah sod that - thats bull****

    Mike

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