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Thread: Detonation Knock pre ignition removal reduction

  1. #1
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    Thumbs up Detonation Knock pre ignition removal reduction

    i have looked at other threads and there is some good info in them regarding what detonation, knock, pre ignition is,

    this is a good thread for that
    http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthr...tonation+sound

    But not that much about how to get rid of it. well not much in one place.

    so now you have read the above thread and know what it is, how can you get rid of it ?

    there are a few ways to do it and i am sure lots of people have there prefured metheds, and i would like you to share the knowledge.

    the senario is:-
    1. Factory stock car mechanicals, turbo's and fueling wise, all in good condition and running perfectly.
    2. Fuel cut limit raised via ecu reflash
    3. After market boost control with gauge.
    4. 1 piece, 2.5" straight through exhaust very small sports cat, minimal silecer
    5. HKS panel filter
    6. Boost set to 13psi get regular kocksum counts of 2-3 and below (repeatable results).
    7. Boost set to 14psi get regular kocksum counts of 6 and below (repeatable result).
    8. Knocksum count tested with a 3 gear 40-80 WOT
    9. fuel is shell V-power.

    tools available:-
    evoscan to monitor knock.
    ecuflash to do the reflash if required.
    all cable required.
    bench test rig to drive injectors (when i get round to building)
    ultrasonic cleaning tank for injector cleaning.

    i am not asking how to tune out knock with a reflash and adjusting the timing, etc will do this once everything else is set up to allow me to push the boost up. then once the boost is where i want it, i can tune out the very small amount of knock i will inevitably have with the raised boost. i need to be able to get to where i want to be first.
    i want to be able to safely turn the boost up to about 18-20psi.

    i would assume the following would be sensible.
    i need to do/change the following as a starting point,
    fuel pump change to 255lph to ensure enough fuel is available to stop lean fueling £40
    fuel pressure regulator change for adjustable type to cope with higher fuel pressure from the new pump. £40
    bigger intercooler 600x300x76mm to help lower the air charge temp. £80 (Not strictly necessary as we have the stock intercooler but don't know its limitations)
    cleaning fuel injector, ultrasonic bath with before and after flow test, etc, (this is free to me as i will have the gear).
    wide band sensor £120
    boost pressure sensor loggable by evoscan (unused O2 sensor on ECU) £20

    now this can be done for about £300
    which is nice.

    what else would be advisable to do, before turning up the boost any further.
    i am not looking at spending more than £200-£400 on top of the £300 spent on the fuel pump, Pressure regulator, and intercooler, wideband,boost sensor, which i know is not a lot of money but thats the budget.

    This is all theoretical at the moment and hope fully it will help other in this situaltion in future.

    please keep your comments sensible and thanks for your input.
    Last edited by Davezj; 15-04-2012 at 01:22 PM.

    Bye for Now!

  2. #2

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    The way I understand this is the cooler the charge going in the less knock should be. So on that basis intercooler spray? Water injection? I think there was a thread on here about a self built system. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm quite interested in this for the future.

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  3. #3
    Davezj's Avatar

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    I know the thread, this one

    http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthr...ater+injection

    swinks did a thread as well about methanol injection.
    but i can't find it any more

  4. #4

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    Yep that's the one, just had a quick google on water injection kits as well, they are relatively cheap, and within your budget, I would assume someone like Eurospec could set these up? I was looking at the devilsown kits on google if your interested

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  5. #5
    Nick Mann's Avatar

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    Intercooler Dave. I believe that will help more than anything. You can pull the timing one or two degrees under high load as well if you need to.

  6. #6
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    Pulling timing will have rather bad effect on powah figure.
    Dave your shopping list is rather spot-on.
    Still donno why your target is 20 psi. Anything above 16psi and TD03 is running out of puff. IMO, optimum setup is 15psi.
    Ex: Galant VR4
    Running 268 HP ATW and 443 Nm torque at 0.9 bar
    Now: Lancer Evolution 8 FQ-300
    Running 325 HP ATW and 510 Nm torque at 1.6 bar

  7. #7
    Nick Mann's Avatar

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    Yes, pulling timing will hurt power, but so will lowering boost. Both ways of reducing knock. Lowering charge temp is better, which is why I said intercooler first.

    Sometimes pulling timing by one degree over a narrow rev range can remove knock without a significant loss of power.

  8. #8
    Davezj's Avatar

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    So my initial thought were OK.

    i will have a look at getting a bigger intercooler, they are pretty cheap for what they are,
    i had forgotten to put silicone hoses and clamps in the budget for the intercooler. so that will be another £50 probably.
    i will have a word with adaxo adam as he has fitted one recently and will know exactly what bits i need.

    the other thing i would like to know is,
    if i had an MBC fitted, when i fit a larger intercooler the exit pressure will be lower than with a standard factory intercooler fitted. is this correct? as i have read this somewhere on here.
    so you would have to turn the MBC up to get the same pressure you had before.
    i believe this is because the new bigger intercooler is less restrictive to the air flow so the pressure is reduced but the air flow and quantity of air getting to the throttle body will be the same.
    but with an EBC you set a required boost level via a digital number on controller and as long as the turbo's can produce the require pressure the EBC will take care of the boost control.

    one of the other things i wanted to do was fit the my UTCOM tip computer so i can measure the inlet and exit temps of the stock intercooler then swap to bigger intercooler and do the sametemp measurements so i can quantifably prove or disprove the benefit of the upgrade.
    obviosly the inlet side should be the same on factory and replacement bigger intercooler but the exit temp will be the tell tail measurement.

    well that is how i am seeing it

  9. #9
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    As for the pressure i am aiming for, basically as much as i can get out of the standard turbo's that is actually usable, the number is not imprtant

    i can turn the EBC up and it will hold 17psi at 5500rpm and above but the engine is knocking like crazy.

    so i don't run it like that, but i would like to run it at about 17psi and above when i can remove the knock.
    this is because i was blown away by the performance when i did run it at 17psi for a single 40 - 80 WOT when logging it with evoscan.
    and i now know what the car can do i want to experience that again, but safely.

    i know you run into other expensive issues when you start pushing the power up like auto box, rear diff, transfer case going bang under high load. but that sort of risk comes with the pleasure of driving it.

  10. #10
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    The increased pressure drop across an uprated intercooler is usually due to it doing its job better. Cold air is denser, so the same amount of air in the same volume has a lower pressure. It is gcse physics, from memory, Boyles Law.

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    Davezj's Avatar

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    Thanks Nick, That is good,
    i am trying to get the obvious question answered as i go along.
    Hope that someone else can read through this and just impliment the changes without having to ask a load of questions as they have already been answered.

  12. #12
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    I have a MBC fitted & when I fitted the bigger IC I had to screw mine back a bit. My IC was fitted in the dead of winter though so it may have been More colder air getting into the engine giving me more boost.
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    This is a truly massive subject area.

    Essentially you need to ask yourself this: Are you after getting the most of your current set up before det, or going beyond that by other means?

    The simplest and least cost effective way is to use 112 Octane leaded petrol. If you are going to start throwing methanol/water into the mix aproach this with caution. Yes it can cool the charge and do lots of nice things but it has to be set up correctly! arbitrarily throwing an unknown quantity from an unknown pump through an unknown jet may not be advantageous at all......

    Here is a scenario for you: About 3 weeks ago I had a project student that was investigating the use of methanol injection on charge cooling. So instead sticking to a purely theoretical study he decided that he wanted to install this and get some real world empirical data for comparison.... All sounds good so far. So he has a mini cooper S, which with its amazingly inefficient interwarmer produces charge temps of around 50ish degrees. (pretty **** for the 9psi its running). Anyway so after advice from someone who he knows who has fitted loads of methanol kits he purchases one and fits it. He was supplied with 3 jets, but his friend told him it would be fine on the big one, so thats what was used. Anyway, the only input I had was running it on the dyno for him and low and behold it brought the charge temps down to around 20 degrees (ambient was 12 that day). However, there was a distinct loss of power combined with a rather bright engine management light.

    I'm not saying it doesnt work, you just have to be realistic about what you are putting in there. You also have to realise that if you are using a consumable to remove knock, then it is just that, consumable, and what happens when it runs out?

    I personally would have it mapped to allow for it to be safe, and I would go for the lowering of your boost.... as once you are past a bar on those tiny things, look at the heat that is produced. You could easily put some thermocouples into your IC pipework and actually look at how much heat is generated and dissipated by your turbo/IC setup

  14. #14
    Davezj's Avatar

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    personally i don't think i will be needing methanol/water injection, i would rather do it without going down that route.
    i don't have the budget to upgrade the turbos, i will refurb the ones i have, but they will still be TD03's i think you are asking for trouble upgrading the turbos as the rest of the drive train is not really up to the job. you would have to upgrade all of that as well as the turbos.
    i believe you went through a few diffs and other stuff, trying to get your vr4 sorted.

    then there is the question of where do you stop. if i limit myself to using the original turbos, then i know i can only go so far and it is pointless trying to going any futher as the gains will be completely limited by the size of the turbos.
    well that what i want from it. otherwise it turns into a money pit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aboo View Post
    I have a MBC fitted & when I fitted the bigger IC I had to screw mine back a bit. My IC was fitted in the dead of winter though so it may have been More colder air getting into the engine giving me more boost.
    Same here, colder air is 'healthier'.
    I throw mbc on shelf and back to standard boost setup (just pill removed) simply due to fact that I personally doesn't feel much difference (with/without mbc) performance wise, I mean after fit ic performance feel a lot better regardless how high boost is set via mbc. Full set of 600x300x76 ic, micalor clamps and apperformance hoses was just over 130£ few months back, fitting is pretty straight forward just need to source galant v6 n/a ps cooler pipe to make things as simply as possible.
    Let me know if you want my detailed shopping list.
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  16. #16
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    Yes please on the the shopping list,
    I am going to order one soon, I know you had some issues with the silicone piipe lengths.
    I was looking at the 3" inlet/outlet type and I assumed I would need clamp which are slightly bigger eg the 3.25" clamps is that correct or is it the 3" clamps.
    As for the silicone hoses is it 3" to 2.5" 90 deg reducers, or something else.
    All info great full received.

  17. #17
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    Here is detailed list what I got and where from:

    1x IC http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FMIC-FFRON...#ht_674wt_1102
    1x silicone reducer 2.5 to 3inch, 90 degree http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Black-Sili...ht_1750wt_1102
    1x silicone reducer 2.5 to 3 inch, 45 degree http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BLACK-SILI...ht_1750wt_1102
    2x clamps 68-73mm http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/68mm-73mm-...#ht_966wt_1102
    2x clamps 85-91mm http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/85mm-91mm-...#ht_966wt_1102

    all above is around 135£

    mine vr4 is FL so to keep things simple I source PFL hot side metal pipe (20£) and PS cooler from n/a v6 Galant (10£) fit nicely behind IC.
    Problem what I got was my fault during instalation, I cut one silicone pipe to short (where ID start increase) and it was not seal properly.
    You need to fabricate a very simple brackets and 'modify' or remove completely crash bar.
    Any questions, just shout.

  18. #18
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    As stated, colder air is denser. The equation is P1V1/T1=P2V2/T2

    Boost isn't really what gives you power, it's air mass, but it's easy to measure and compare.

    I think you'll struggle to hold 20PSI on the TD03s. I have 3 settings on my EBC, and on setting 3 I can hit just shy of 20PSI, with no det, but it soon drops to 17ish and then slowly trails off over the rest of the RPM range, and I sometimes get a tiny bit (knocksum 3) near the red line.
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  19. #19
    Davezj's Avatar

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    how much overlap is there with the crash bar to the intercooler?

    i have been looking at some of the ebay intercoolers and you can get 600x280x76 ish size, i was wondering if it would fit underneith the crash bar without needing to do any modification to the crash bar.
    i know you can push back the metalwork behind the crash bar with a hammer which would be the sensible way to do it and leave the crash bar untouched for safety reasons, and still fit the 600x300x76 intercoolers in there.

    i am just considering the options.

  20. #20
    Davezj's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus-Ninja View Post
    As stated, colder air is denser. The equation is P1V1/T1=P2V2/T2

    Boost isn't really what gives you power, it's air mass, but it's easy to measure and compare.

    I think you'll struggle to hold 20PSI on the TD03s. I have 3 settings on my EBC, and on setting 3 I can hit just shy of 20PSI, with no det, but it soon drops to 17ish and then slowly trails off over the rest of the RPM range, and I sometimes get a tiny bit (knocksum 3) near the red line.
    that sound like what i am aiming for, it is nice to know it has been done and is possible, and i am not p*ssing in the wind trying to achieve this.
    thanks for the info.

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