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Thread: Detonation Knock pre ignition removal reduction

  1. #21
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    This MAY fit better, and it has 2.5 in out just like vr4s http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-SLIM-I...#ht_912wt_1102
    I will happily change mine for that (at least for better wider look)

    BTW Very interested thread Dave, looks like we are on similar hunt for few more ponies with similar attitude spending wise.
    Last edited by adaxo; 17-04-2012 at 02:35 PM.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davezj View Post
    that sound like what i am aiming for, it is nice to know it has been done and is possible, and i am not p*ssing in the wind trying to achieve this.
    thanks for the info.
    What boost are you running at the moment? I'd seriously recommend a decent EBC.
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  3. #23
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    Have you also thought about possibly cooling the charge by cooling the fuel? I've been doing some reading lately into swirl pots and fuel coolers, the theory is as follows;

    You use the swirl pot to prevent fuel starvation (conceivable but not necessarily a problem on VR-4s yet) and surges, with a fuel cooler after it to cool the fuel down a few degrees. When this cooler fuel is injected into the engine with the air, it has a similar effect to water injection, cooling the charge on its way in.

    Walbro fuel pumps for example are known for heating fuel under high load because they use the fuel for cooling themselves.

    This is theory, I have no experience in practice on this, but fuel coolers are used in some racing applications. There was a F1 scandal on it not too long ago if memory serves.
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  4. #24
    Davezj's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus-Ninja View Post
    What boost are you running at the moment? I'd seriously recommend a decent EBC.
    I have an ebc already I only mentioned the MBC as an example situation for those readers that find there boost level decrease after fitting a bigger less restictive intercoolerand wondered why.
    As a few people seem to do.

    I can happily turn the boost up to 17 psi and it seem to cope with the pressure, but I get massive knock.

    But Jason tells me he can run 18psi before he sees any knock on his car.
    So I will be doing some investigation in to this as I go along.

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by foxdie View Post
    Have you also thought about possibly cooling the charge by cooling the fuel? I've been doing some reading lately into swirl pots and fuel coolers, the theory is as follows;

    You use the swirl pot to prevent fuel starvation (conceivable but not necessarily a problem on VR-4s yet) and surges, with a fuel cooler after it to cool the fuel down a few degrees. When this cooler fuel is injected into the engine with the air, it has a similar effect to water injection, cooling the charge on its way in.

    Walbro fuel pumps for example are known for heating fuel under high load because they use the fuel for cooling themselves.

    This is theory, I have no experience in practice on this, but fuel coolers are used in some racing applications. There was a F1 scandal on it not too long ago if memory serves.
    Yes what you say about cooling fuel does make sense.

    Maybe it is time to build my solver chiller I have been designing for the last couple of years, well when I say designing, I mean have a repeating dream about.
    So it must mean something.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davezj View Post
    But Jason tells me he can run 18psi before he sees any knock on his car.
    Alas, not when the throttle body elbow gets blown off from it

    (This happened on my way home from work, first time in over a year, heh)
    Last edited by foxdie; 17-04-2012 at 08:09 PM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davezj View Post
    I have an ebc already I only mentioned the MBC as an example situation for those readers that find there boost level decrease after fitting a bigger less restictive intercoolerand wondered why.
    As a few people seem to do.

    I can happily turn the boost up to 17 psi and it seem to cope with the pressure, but I get massive knock.

    But Jason tells me he can run 18psi before he sees any knock on his car.
    So I will be doing some investigation in to this as I go along.
    It's not the restriction (or rather lack off) in an intercooler that creates the pressure drop, it's the amount by which it reduces charge temps.

    What AFRs are you getting when you knock? I would suspect that leaning out may be the issue.

    Do you have a charge temp gauge? Would be useful to see what inlet temps are like as well, I guess.

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  8. #28
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    this is my first port of call,
    get my UTCOM trip computer installed (comes with 2 temp sensors)
    get wideband fitted
    get boost sensor fitted to ecu spare o2 sensor fitted.

    then i have logable afr, boost, inlet and exit temps from intercooler.

    so i should have a better idea what my start point is.
    this all comes from the RR Day we just had at area 52 last saturday, unfortuneatly we did not get any greaphs as the printer failed on the first print of the day, so we will get them through the post soon, so i don't know what my data is yet. i was not pay too much attention to it as i was playing with the boost to reduce the knock.
    the guy was very concerned about running any car hard if it had the slightest hint of knock, he was listening to the knock on det cans and i was logging it with evoscan and he was hearing about 4 count and above and 2-3 counts he was a bit iffy on, so i only got one run done at 13psi set of the EBC.

  9. #29
    Davezj's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by foxdie View Post
    Alas, not when the throttle body elbow gets blown off from it

    (This happened on my way home from work, first time in over a year, heh)
    it is a bit scary when that happens, luckerly the only time it happaned to me the elbow got kind of sucked back on and i was able to get home and sort it out.

  10. #30
    Davezj's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by adaxo View Post
    This MAY fit better, and it has 2.5 in out just like vr4s http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-SLIM-I...#ht_912wt_1102
    I will happily change mine for that (at least for better wider look)

    BTW Very interested thread Dave, looks like we are on similar hunt for few more ponies with similar attitude spending wise.
    the core size is smaller 550x230x65
    the core is not 700mm
    your intercooloer will be about 700mm wide including the inlet and out tubes.
    Last edited by Davezj; 18-04-2012 at 06:40 AM.

  11. #31
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    do you think the 550x230x65 core will be man enough for a VR4 needs.

    the normal aftermaket bigger intercooler fitted is 600x300x76


    so just looking at the surface area if the 2 intercoolers
    600x300=180000
    550x230=125000
    the difference in surface area is 180000/126500=1.43

    so the 600x300 intercooler has 43% more surface area to cool the intercooler than the 550x230 intercooler.
    but a fair chunk of the 600x300 intercooler will be behind the crash bar, and not get the cooling effect of the air, but will still radiate the heat.
    so what to you recon if the 550x230 intercooler surface is all exposed to the air flow will it be good enough for a vr4.

    maybe there is a calculation on the web somewhere to calculate the requied intercooler size for a given required temp drop.

    the other major thing that could be done is to relocate the front number plate and shave off the plastic underneith from the bumper and replace with mess,which would give you a massive amout more air flow to the intercooler.

    so do you think it would 550x230 be ok.

    this might help, not the hp calculayor but the intercooler infomation.
    http://horsepowercalculators.net/int...ler-calculator

    i have had a look around there is a lf theory out there, but there is also the statment that crops up time and time again,"fit the biggest intercooler you can get in the space available"
    which is a logical thing to do. if you do all the calculation and you need a bigger intercooler than you have space for, you still can't fit one of that size. if you fitt an intercooler that is twice the size you actually need, then you don't have an issue, unless you stop air flow to the rest of the cooling system.
    Last edited by Davezj; 18-04-2012 at 06:46 AM.

  12. #32
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    well i think the thread answers the question.
    http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthr...r+number+plate

    minor modification (not to crash bar) and the 600x300x76 intercooler fits nicley.

    win win situation.

    maybe a 600x300x100 intercooler will fit.

  13. #33
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    I've been thinking about increasing the size of my intercooler actually, the 450x300 one I have right now is good but I still occasionally get mild knock on 18~ PSI boost (but then I am running 11.5 AFR with increased timing so it's not all that surprising )...

    That or swap the license plate for a smaller one so there's better flow over the 450x300.

  14. #34
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    I have no licence plate on my bumper. I have a sticker on the bonnet.

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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus-Ninja View Post
    I have no licence plate on my bumper. I have a sticker on the bonnet.
    And the legality of that is?

  16. #36
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    Legal, provided it's the correct size. The law is generally unclear about these things. There's Type Approval which defines the design/build of a car - eg where the lights must be locatged, sharp edges near your head etc. AFAIK the jag E-Type was the only car to have type approval for a stick number plate. Then there's the annual MOT, this generally covers safety aspects but ignores many of the points in type approval - eg you need to have a demister for type approval, but it's not required for MOT. So for an MOT you just have to have a number plate, and adhesive is fine. Then there's the law governing the supply of number plates. They have to ask for your V5 and the plate has to be marked with where it was purchased. This is the suppliers lookout, not yours, but many get round it by stating "for off road use only". There's no law, AFAIK, stating that the owner cannot put a number plate on their car that did not require the V5 to be presented etc. Then there's the local plod. I've been pulled before for not having a number plate (they couldn't lock their speed camera on), but when they saw it was inside the car (adhered to the inside of the windscreen on this occasion) they apologised and, after a lovely chat about mod'ing cars, let me on my way.

    I've had two cars with sticky number plates (see the other in my avatar), and never had legal issues with them.

    It's certainly no less legal than repeated 3rd gear runs to the red line on your local dual carriageway

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus-Ninja View Post
    It's certainly no less legal than repeated 3rd gear runs to the red line on your local dual carriageway
    Ahh, but I always backed off before 60

    (did I b****cks, haha)

    Might de-plate my car then. Recommended place to obtain sticker?

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by foxdie View Post
    or swap the license plate for a smaller one so there's better flow over the 450x300.
    You could ditch the front fogs and run an offset square plate over where one of the fogs sit.

    I'm also considering removing the steel bumper all together and "joining" the lower grill to the smaller upper grill.

    Venting the bonnet will help massively, probably more than the above. All that air coming in needs to go somewhere, or else it creates a cushion which restricts the overall flow. You can feed it under the car but it's better, aerodynamically, to route it over the top of the car (ie like the Evos do) Really you want to bleed as little air as possible underneath, aside from that which enters under the bumper / splitter naturally.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by foxdie View Post
    Recommended place to obtain sticker?
    Search ebay for "Number plate sticker" - go for one with the same reflective material as in a "normal" plate. You're closer to the law then Also, if you can mod your bumper enough so that there is no longer a place to put it. you can get round the "why don't you put it there" argument

  20. #40

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    Vinyl number plates are illegal, they don't comply with the British standard that has to be printed on the plate by law now. It's all to do with number plate recognition software and that it struggles to read anything else. It's a £60 fine if your stopped.

    Plus using the I have no where to put my number plate isn't a good enough excuse. You changed the bumper to get rid of the plate. They'll just say your vehicle isn't road legal which means they could crush it if they wanted.

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