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Thread: Trackday overheating

  1. #21
    crazydriver81's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davezj View Post
    By the way did you get any pictures of where the head gasket leaks. @Crazydriver81

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    That was Kind of a disappointment as we have not found clear marks of where the gasket might have leaked. The bolts on the rear bank have been very loose compared to what force is needed when tightening the heads.

    Only one cylinder showed minimal signs of having a coolant leak (cyl #5). Fact is that both sides of th gasket have been covered in a black mixture of something which was very hard to remove. Heads have been skimmed anyway but removing that crap from the block side was a nightmare (greasy, sticky whatsoever).

    I have a few Pictures on the phone which I have to upload.

    One last remark on re-tightening the head bolts. accordinf to the Workshop Manual, there is no defined force (Nm) defined for the head bolts. They rather define it in tightening them with a defined angle (20Nm + 2x 120°). So if you re-tighten used bolts it is either to loose or you risk to snap the bolt
    the one and only...Pearl White Legnum 25 ST-R...registered in Germany - now featuring a 6A13TT engine (unless you know otherwise)


  2. #22
    Davezj's Avatar

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    Thanks for the update.
    It is a shame there is no obvious leak point. But it is odd that the head gasket was covered in black gunk that is not the normal way these head gaskets are fitted from the factory. Which leads me to think your heads have been taken off in the past. Possibly for the same reason, which is why the used the black gunk to try a seal the possible leak into the cooling systems.
    What might have happened is they refitted the head and forgot to re torque the head bolts free a few heat cycles.
    Or could not be bothered due to faff with removing the plenum chamber to do it.

    The method of tightening the head bolts in the manual is specifically designed for stretch bolts. It streches the bolt. And the manual says if the bolt is less than the specified length then they can be used again.
    Personally I would not bother using them again as I can get 8 bolts for about £20. Don't go to Mitsi dealer for them they cost a fortune.
    But you can re use them according to the manual.

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    Bye for Now!

  3. #23
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    Buy the way @crazydriver81​ where have you uploaded the pics to?

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  4. #24
    crazydriver81's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davezj View Post
    Buy the way @crazydriver81​ where have you uploaded the pics to?

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    Here you go @Davezj. Pctures were still on my phone.

    I personally can't imagine that someone should have used material to reuse the gaskets. I don't know of any material that would be able to handle pressure and temperature in that area of an engine, but I could be wrong. Anyhow, now it's back to factory specs and we also used all new OEM bolts.

    The closeup picture is cyl #5 and it shows some signs of coolant have been burnt.

    Anyhow, I just can repeat the car only had the problem when being driven in higher rev ranges (etc. 160 kph on the motorway for longer). On constant 120kph driving that would not occur. When coolant was pushed out via overflow bottle, combustion gasses have been detected very clearly there.

    So the failure in this case has definitely to do with pressure and revolutions which, together with the relatively loose head bolts on the rear bank, lead to the conclusion that head bolts might have stretched over time and made the head lift. However, it might have lead to a complete failure of the gasket in the future.

    smallIMG_0781.jpgsmallIMG_0828.jpgsmallIMG_0827.jpgsmallIMG_0825.jpgsmallIMG_0824.jpgsmallIMG_0823.jpgsmallIMG_0819.jpgsmallIMG_0818.jpgsmallIMG_0817.jpgsmallIMG_0816.jpgsmallIMG_0810.jpgsmallIMG_0795.jpgsmallIMG_0829.jpg

  5. #25
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    Thank for the pics they are I interesting.
    Possibly The black gunk on the top of block could be the surface finish of the head gasket being baked on to the block as that is a black colour.
    But it is only a guess.
    Thank again for the pics most appreciated.



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  6. #26
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    @Davezj@Grid

    Car has been put back together and on the road. All fine again, no issues anymore with the engine. The guy had a 200km drive with 160kph on the way home and no boiling, pushing out water etc. Boost kicks in as expected (car had a loss of top boost by 0.15bar before!)

    Work carried out:
    new OEM head gaskets and OEM bolts
    heads leak tested
    heads skimmed

    So, to my understanding clear signs of head lift issues are:
    - no oil in coolant / no coolant in oil
    - pushing out excessive amount of coolant through overflow bottle and boiling coolant
    - loss of boost
    - exhaust gasses detectable in coolant (and coolant smells like fuel)

  7. #27
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    Excellent round up.
    Thanks for the info.
    If you remember can you do. Another update in a couple of weeks time. Even if it is just a "everything still fine".

    It would be much appreciated.

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  8. #28

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    Very cool! Thanks for sharing. My mechanic thinks he can do the heads and studs without taking the engine out... interesting to see if he manages that.
    The more you know, the faster you can go. And I still don't know enough.

  9. #29
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    I would imagine you can put the heads in place with the gaskets then fit the studs. But if you try and remove the heads after the studs have been fitted the rear head will probably not come off as it might hit the firewall/engine bay bulkhead.
    Not that you would want to be taking the heads off again any time soon.
    Hopefully it will be the last time you will need to.

    I too am hoping to do the head gaskets without removing the engine . So I hope your mechanic can do it.
    Maybe the head manifold and turbo can come out as one item from the rear. I am not sure if this is possible. I don't even know if it is possible for the front head with the radiator removed can be taken off in one go

    I will listen out for any updates.

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    Last edited by Davezj; 15-05-2017 at 10:09 AM.

  10. #30
    crazydriver81's Avatar

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    I just can emphasize that taking the engine out will make your job a lot easier and faster. We take the engine out inc subframe and gearbox etc.

    Take out part of propshaft, remove engine crossmember. Remove downpipes, take out driveshaft from wheel hub, remove steering column from steering rack and disconnect the from suspension linkage from the the subframe basically. Of course take out radiator before, disconnect cables and power steering lines.

    Then remove the nuts holding the subframe, putting a pallet underneath and finally disconnect engine and gearbox mount and then you can lift the car and engine is out. Engine in and out is a 1 hour procedure each and worth IMO

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grid View Post
    Very cool! Thanks for sharing. My mechanic thinks he can do the heads and studs without taking the engine out... interesting to see if he manages that.
    That statement lasted for all of about 15 minutes

    Engine is getting put back together now. I am also doing a twin TD04 conversion because why not.

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  12. #32
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    Awesome!

  13. #33
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    Cool, please let know your welder there will be demand for TD04 manifolds here in uk, it will be great if we eventually can get them.
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  14. #34

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    A small update here. The car is out on the streets with the twin-TD04's and the rebuilt engine with stronger head studs. So far so good - absolutely no coolant loss whatsoever even when gunning it. And it goes like stink! Need to tweak the fueling and then get a dyno sheet for posterity's sake...

  15. #35
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    Awesome!

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