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Thread: My attempt to rebuild VR4 engine

  1. #1
    adaxo's Avatar

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    My attempt to rebuild VR4 engine

    Today I decided its time to start this now or scrap it for good, why? I need to retrieve bottom part of plenum to pre fit LPG injectors hence I drag it out of corner where this engine lived for about three years and been covered by lots of crap, turn it up as it was heads down to take less space, and it was a bit of a shock of how things looks like.

    It was a fairly fresh import with about 100k km when one of rods bearing go bang (still drive in to my garage and it was running smooth on idle, only knocking its tits off at about 3k RPM) so I did change it for working unit and hence I know this car and its history (here in UK) I decided to keep it and rebuild later and have it as spare when mine go bang, there we are 3+ years later mine current engine is running great as ever and this rebuild plans still not happened, well till now. It is one of my bucked list things, not that im planning to leave this world that early.

    As you can see on pictures, it become all badly rusty and alloy parts are badly oxidized, so its now or never.

    It will be long project only to kill a bit of spare time and I will be trying to learn as much as I can while Im doing it as if this become successful, ie it will be swap straight in to my VR4 after rebuild, and it will do some considerable miles without an issue I may bite the bullet and forge mine current one, so bare with me on this one and if you have any tips along my way you more than welcome to input now than later.

    Plan is
    strip it out to bare block
    rework heads, planing by workshop, regrind valves by myself
    clean all oil galleys in block as there will be some debris from old crank bearings
    change all main bearings and one affected by bearing damage con rod, have good crank taken off good running engine to use for this rebuild
    obviously clean all parts/bolts/lash ect ect,


    Main plan is to keep it simple (cheap) on all genuine parts, change only whats necessary (bearings/cam belt/thermostat/spark plugs/front and rear crank seals ect) no upgraded parts will be used as it is my first attempt on such an enormous job so if something not end up as planned it will be not a massive loss. Hoping to have this finish by end of this year autumn and swap over b4 coldness of winter arrive, fingers crossed

    here's few photos of current state


    20170307_191544.jpg20170307_191550.jpg20170307_191555.jpg20170307_191602.jpg20170307_191608.jpg20170307_191615.jpg20170307_200731.jpg20170307_200740.jpg
    His FL Legnum VR4 running 238.8 ATW HP and 500Nm @1.05 bar on LPG
    Hers PFL Legnum VR4 COTY see here for full story
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  2. #2
    Davezj's Avatar

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    This sounds like a nice project.

    Sent from my MI 5s using Tapatalk

    Bye for Now!

  3. #3
    Nick Mann's Avatar

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    Watching with interest.

  4. #4
    Adam.Findlay's Avatar

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    make sure you pull the ball bearings out of the oil galleries in the block and crank (provided your crank isnt beyond servicable) to ensure you get all the old bearing debris out of it. that stuff has a nasty habit of coming loose and turning fresh new bearings into junk.

  5. #5
    adaxo's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam.Findlay View Post
    make sure you pull the ball bearings out of the oil galleries in the block and crank (provided your crank isnt beyond servicable) to ensure you get all the old bearing debris out of it. that stuff has a nasty habit of coming loose and turning fresh new bearings into junk.
    I have different crank, taken from good engine. The one which has failed in this engine is scrap, I mean it may be serviceable but I rather polish a good crank (factory spec) and use good (again factory spec) one con rod, than machine out old crank and all con rods and then try to find oversized bearing, hope that make sense and its right?
    Glad you @Adam.Findlay aware of this thread as I will have lots of questions for you later

  6. #6
    Adam.Findlay's Avatar

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    Regardless you should still remove the gallery bungs and clean ut out as lots of crap can build up in there and trying to clean the galleries with the bungs still in can dislodge but not remove the debris. Only to cause it to come out during engine operation on run in.

    See this thread of mine on OZVR4 on how i remove them
    https://www.ozvr4.com/threads/2-7-li...-2#post-347467

  7. #7
    adaxo's Avatar

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    Need to look closer on this bung removal business, I remember how much crap I flush from box shafts after bearing damage, at first glance on your other thread im afraid it may needs to be done by crank jobs specialists while they do ground/polish job as it looks like I need welder (don't have one) and spare bungs to plug that back in. Thank for tips.

    Small update from today work, all engine is stripped back to bare block, all bagged separately and marked where it came from, sealed and stacked on the shelf, I try to make sure when I grab bag of bits few months later I will know exactly where is from.

    Now tedious jobs of measuring all bearings needed, check pistons and rings if they need to be changed or are still in spec, clean block and pistons to prepare them for assembly then Im planning to move to heads.

    Few photos from today, if you want to see any particular part closer give me a shout and I picture it for you.


    20170308_141310.jpg20170308_141319.jpg20170308_141325.jpg20170308_141333.jpg20170308_142200.jpg20170308_142209.jpg20170308_142514.jpg20170308_142519.jpg20170308_142525.jpg20170308_143933.jpg

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    This will be an awesome thread. I fancy rebuilding a 6A13 BUT with better rods and pistons to run safer power. Alas... I still have a 6G72 in the garage to do first! If only it'd go in the Legnum!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by madluka View Post
    This will be an awesome thread. I fancy rebuilding a 6A13 BUT with better rods and pistons to run safer power. Alas... I still have a 6G72 in the garage to do first! If only it'd go in the Legnum!
    Thanks, as I said at the beginning, its my first attempt to do something so complex job as rebuild engine and due to lack of experience I wouldn't like to spend £1000s for upgraded bits and put it together wrong and fry them up, so I decided to go OEM (cheapest option) and learn thing or two first then if I feel confident enough and actually know what I doing, may spend some money for forged build.

    I wish I have some of the skills and resource as they do, but is never to late to learn


  10. #10
    adaxo's Avatar

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    Have a question @Adam.Findlay just measure con rods at the crank end, they all off of circle/oval (sorry for terms used, not sure how its call by pros) by about 0.06 and in pretty much the same position, I assume its deformed formed during use but how much by is reusable and when they needs to be machined? manual not mention anything about this spec so It may heed to be perfect circle without ant ovality ?

  11. #11
    Adam.Findlay's Avatar

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    Were you measuring the big end of the rods with the bearings in. Or with no bearings? As the bearings are thinner near the rod cap mating surface as this promotes hydrodynamic lubrication. Helps "drag" the oil into the more highly loaded part of the bearing, so it will measure 0.001" to 0.002" out of round with the bearings in. But it should measure perfectly round with no bearing installed.
    If a rod has spun a bearing it either needs to be remachined or replaced as the heat and damage from the bearing bashing around will have damaged the rod(s)
    Also Did you have the rod bolts torqued up when you measured them. As the clamp load from the bolts directly effects the shape of the big end tunnel. Hence why if you install ARP rod bolts you often need to hone the tunnels again to restor them to round as the extra clamp force from the higher strength bolts distorts the tunnel more than stock bolts.

    Finally what were you measuring it with. Because with anything other than micrometers you are taking the piss. Vernieer calipers and no where near accurate enough. And plastigauge is a joke.

  12. #12
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    Thanks for your input, that makes sense now, well almost, will check again today but it seems like rods are out of shape in the same spot all the same so it could be due to this 'promotes hydrodynamic lubrication' thing is i did measure them without bearings in.

    It didn't spun bearing, it eat bearing and scare crank but (bearing) was in place when taking apart, I know what you mean, if it spun bearing it will damage big end rod, have this done ages ago on my 4g63 galant (two pieces of bearing slide on each other) and guy in machine shop show me how much this con rod was out of shape compare to others, hence I sort out spare con rods ( thanks @dave) but it seems like its not the case in this particular engine as they all the same, even affected (with chipped bearing) one. Car drive on its own steam and it was knocking only @3k rpm so owner didn't drive it to that rpm to my garage where I swap engines, and it was very smooth on idle, like nothing never happen.

    And yes I use micrometer, I know I'm amateur but not as bad one LOL

  13. #13
    Adam.Findlay's Avatar

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    regardless if the bearing spun or not the impact from rod knock from shagged bearings can deform the end of the rods

    if you measured them with no bearings they should measure perfectly round.
    the ovality comes from differential thickness in the bearings. see the image below.

    2016-12-20_21-17-57-640x427.jpg

    by the sounds of it you need to take the rods to a engine reconditioner to get the big ends resized as that is not something you can do without specalist equipment

  14. #14
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    Right, can you tell me actual name/term of this job, If I want to give machine shop crank and set of con rods to do machining and chose right set/size of bearings so I can search online and make phone calls, or shall I consider to give them bare block, crank, rods, pistons and ask for assembly with right tolerances? please tell me as a guy it the trade whats common approach/terms of this jobs?

    That was one of my options to consider when I decide to rebuild this engine, send bottom to pros and let them do all work left me with 'just' taks of bolting it back together.

  15. #15
    Adam.Findlay's Avatar

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    Yes i strongly reccomend having the short block assebled professionally.
    I assume you plan on sending the heads in to have the valve seats recut, valves refaced and heads surfaced.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam.Findlay View Post
    Yes i strongly reccomend having the short block assebled professionally.
    I assume you plan on sending the heads in to have the valve seats recut, valves refaced and heads surfaced.
    Need to think about it, firstly I was thinking of get head skimmed by pro and do the rest by myself, just valve grind as its relatively low mileage engine so I think its not weared as much as need valve seats rework.

    Again need to price up this job and see what way to go. Didn't measure crank and bores yet, must do that first. But as I said, its fairly fresh engine so I don't expect its worn out cylinders/piston combo too much to be in need for major (boring/honing ect) jobs.

  17. #17
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    First f***up, I wasn't pay enough attention to manual and skip 90 degree last tighten up step, just see 18Nm and carrying with that, hence my measurement been all over, after redone them 18Nm AND 90 degree all and rods are bang on circles.Amazing stuff this all engineering things.

    That was quick one, must read whole chapters and read them again b4 any further jobs.

  18. #18
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    That is pretty amazing it makes so much difference.

    Believe it or not I had a similar issue when building mass spectrometer quadroples about 15 years ago.
    These are basically 4 parallel rods matched to 5 um parallel along the full lengths of the 4 rods 25cm long. Not as easy as you think.
    To get the measurement at one point down the rod with respect to one other rod is easy but along the full length of 2 rods is tricky, but then you have to match the first to rods to the 3rd and 4 the rods.
    But that is a different kettle of fish.

    Sent from my MI 5s using Tapatalk

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  20. #20
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    Thread from dead, this time flying much faster that I want, anyway with lots of free time now I dig it out again but this time I want to put it back together and use in one of my vr4s, not sure which one yet.
    On the proces of ordering main bearings and hit a wall, there's msg from amayama www

    27 - 72d waiting from supplier
    +1 - 3d processing
    +2 - 3d EMS International shipping
    if any one know where else I can purchase main bearings pls let me know @Davezj where you get yours from?

    here's a little quiz, I pick right size but just to confirm, which one would you pick

    info from manual

    panewki.jpg
    91395459_663234764412365_9417570494971904_n.jpg

    my block

    91989101_151955246115484_213429345983660032_n.jpg

    my crank

    91465390_151677259487181_1158757514758586368_n.jpg

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