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Thread: Back in Jap!

  1. #21
    I-S's Avatar

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    Lol, your winning streak is over! Pretty far off I'm afraid.

    Not German.
    Not 4 cylinder.
    Not 6 cylinder.
    It's been a crazy year, But through all the damage done,
    I have turned and I have learned, To make next year a better one,
    Singing Oh Hallelujah,
    Singing Oh I am home.

  2. #22
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    No-one else having a go?
    October 2023 fleet status: 100% operational


    | Legnum VR-4S | Fiat Panda 100HP !! | a blue one! | Avensis T-180 | VR-4 parts van! |

    Why not become a full member of CVR4 and enjoy the additional benefits membership brings?! Information here.

  3. #23
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    I think you discouraged them before!

  4. #24
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    So it could be a brand new car? I remember something about road tax having an extra 300ish added on to new cars?

    So, assuming the electric theme is continuing, a BMW i3?

  5. #25
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    Dammit! Just read the not German thing! I already know I am wrong!

  6. #26
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    But sooooo much closer than Nev.

  7. #27
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    Jaguar I-Pace
    '97 Manual Legnum in silver with some subtle mods

    My first VR4 - '97 Legnum Dark Green & mean ...it was love at first sight - now sold

  8. #28
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    Closer.

    Not AWD.

  9. #29

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    Hyundai Ioniq?

  10. #30
    I-S's Avatar

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    No, fails the not FWD condition...

    So, the answer....


  11. #31
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    Very cool!

  12. #32
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    ooh, lovely car.

  13. #33
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    Nice. I would be interested to know your thoughts on it in a few months.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Mann View Post
    Nice. I would be interested to know your thoughts on it in a few months.
    If it hasn't caught fire by then that is !!

  15. #35
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    Yup. Because that's so likely as compared to vehicles powered by explosions.

  16. #36
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    I suspect grey head refers to the online video of a tesla suffering from spontaneous combustion!

  17. #37
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    Yes.... something that never happens to ICE vehicles.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Mann View Post
    Nice. I would be interested to know your thoughts on it in a few months.
    Ok then...



    There's a huge amount to say but if you can't be bothered to read all that follows, TL;DR: Most awesome thing that I've ever bought or owned.

    We're now at 10 months and over 7000 miles (and would have been over 10k had it not been for lockdown), so got a good feel for how it is.

    Our car is a Model 3 Standard Range Plus (aka 3SR+), so it has a ~52kWh battery and a single motor driving the rear wheels. It is base specification, but that includes power and heated seats, panoramic roof, sat nav, 4G connectivity, app functionality, etc, etc, etc. There's very little missing - the "premium" option (standard on Long Range and performance) only adds a few extra speakers and a sub and includes heated rear seats (which are a £300 software unlock on the SR+) as well as front foglights (which our car has anyway because we ordered it when they were still included on the SR+). Kerb weight is 1611kg, which is only about 50kg more than an equivalent 3 series (330i RWD), with a lower centre of gravity than a porsche 911, and a somewhat 911-like 46:54 weight distribution (but much lower polar moment of inertia as very little weight hangs outside of the wheelbase) and a long wheelbase with short overhangs (longer wheelbase than our Lexus GS but significantly shorter overall).

    On may 1st 2019, Tesla opened up UK orders for the Model 3. I was shocked to discover that it was a stretch but doable cost for us. A number of factors drove my decision - one was that I wanted it, another was that I felt the value of our Leaf was on a bubble and we could take advantage of that to move the value forward into the Tesla rather than lose it on depreciation of the Leaf. On the evening of the 4th of May we ordered the car. In July Tesla dropped the price by £1560, and they amended our order to the new price. Our car was delivered on the 28th of August (yes - if it had been 4 days later it would have been on the new reg plate).

    The price of the model 3 has subsequently increased by £3200. We sold our Leaf for £10650 to a trader, 19 months (and 12200 miles) after buying it from a Nissan dealer for £11000, so successfully got the value from that car. A year later the Leaf would now be worth approx £8500, so had we waited rather than jumping on early it would have cost us an extra £5-£6k.

    Driving



    It's awesome. Even base spec is just over 5 seconds 0-60 but the real thing about driving an EV is the instantaneousness of the response - the car is already accelerating before you've finished moving your foot on the throttle. There's no waiting for kickdown, boost to build, revs to get into the right range. 100% torque, instantly, always. The trick to the speed of EVs in every day driving circumstances is less about outright peak acceleration, but how instant it is, making getting into gaps in traffic an absolute doddle.

    I already mentioned weight distribution, CoG and polar moment - combined with a very well designed suspension setup (described by Munro & associates (a highly respected detroit-based industry consultancy) as "could have been designed by F1 princes") it grips phenomenally well. It's not totally vice-free - the SR+ can be a little front-light in some situations, needing a couple of mid-corner corrections (the LR (long range) and P (performance) versions are ~250kg heavier and most of that is on the front axle, so they probably have a little more initial turn in and front-end grip), but grips HARD and can be rotated on the throttle. It's reasonably firm - similar to our GS450h when that's in Sport+ mode, but far from uncomfortable. It doesn't float or wallow or pitch. The ride would be improved perhaps with something more than basic dampers. There are third party options (Ohlins, Mountainpass, Unplugged), and I'd consider a set of Mountainpass Comfort Coilovers.

    Tesla's approach to traction control is different to ICE cars. ICE cars will slip, cut power, wait for wheels to stop spinning, then reapply power (after boost/revs lost also), etc. The Leaf used a similar behaviour - if it slipped, power would be cut and then you had to wait for a software timeout (felt like forever, but somewhere 0.5s-1s) before it was available again. The Tesla does not - it detects slip and instantly moderates power rather than cutting it so that if you bury the throttle on a slippery road the car will accelerate at the maximum possible rate for those surface conditions. In other words, their understanding of "traction control" is something that provides traction rather than just killing power. It will let you give a bit of a wag of the tail coming out of a wet roundabout, but it doesn't snap away.

    Steering is very very direct - it's only 2 turns lock-to-lock, and combined with the single gear it's basically akin to driving a gokart, and puts a similar smile on your face.

    On the move wind noise is generally very low (but there's one small mod I've made that reduced it usefully), road noise is acceptable but not great - the Volvo, Leaf and Lexus all had less road noise (although the volvo did spoil that with the constant gnashing of diseasel, and the leaf only got quiet once I replaced the tyres). I do plan on doing a bit of sound deadening and absorbtion that should reduce this.

    Exterior and Interior

    My opinion on the looks of the model 3 took quite a journey. When it was first unveiled I wasn't a huge fan - I thought "meh.... prefer the model S". We travelled on holiday to the USA in summer of 2017 and saw a few out and about in public and... honestly, I liked it a bit less. The roof arch seemed a bit too high, and the way the smooth curve of the windscreen/roof/rear glass met with the bonnet felt a bit discontinuous. I still thought I'd prefer a model S.

    In summer of 2018 we returned to the USA and saw a lot more model 3s driving around and I still felt the same way about them (by then I had the Leaf so was paying much more attention to other EVs). After we returned from that holiday, during July of 2018 we started shopping around for a car to replace the Volvo (and was the process that ended with the GS450h). We visited a number of dealers of a number of marques, tried a lot of different cars, and after a (incredibly disappointing) visit to Mercedes Stockport I insisted (somewhat to Vince's annoyance) that we go a couple of hundred yards up the road and at least look in the Tesla showroom. At that point they did not have the model 3 (as it wasn't on sale in the UK by then), and I enjoyed looking at the S and X. They persuaded me to book a test drive of a model S (pushing on an open door!), despite me telling them in no uncertain terms we were not going to buy one (they said that's fine, we just want people to drive them). Test drove the S the next week, and found it to feel very similar to the GS450h - stable, solid, a bit squishy, heavy, but also epically fast. I loved it, but simply knew it was impossible to buy one.

    In November of 2018 I went on a business trip to Silicon Valley. There were model 3s everywhere, unsurprisingly. One afternoon I had finished a meeting in Palo Alto at 3pm and all I had left for the day was to get dinner, get back to my hotel in milpitas and write my meeting report, so I took some time to stop by the Tesla Gallery in Palo Alto, and finally got to actually see up close and sit in a model 3. This completely changed my opinion on the model 3, and also on pretty much every other car on the planet. See, as the comments I made above about the exterior look make clear, it's easy to miss what's special about it from the outside but when you get inside it is SO completely different to any other car out there. Getting back into my rental car afterwards felt like I'd stepped back 20 years (but it was a Buick, so...). The Model 3's interior is just magnificent in design, even if it occasionally suffers a little in execution. It also changed my "meh, prefer the S" to "I WANT A MODEL 3!"


    (Not my pic)

    In terms of the exterior, once we got ours then I started to appreciate the styling and details far more. Listening to an interview with the designer (Franz von Holzhausen) I started to understand the approach. It's very much about function - there are no fake grilles, no pretend aero parts and very few things done for stylistic reasons. It doesn't follow trends (like weird half-blacked out shaped C-pillars (Vauxhall Adam, Lexus RX450, Vauxhall Astra, Kia e-Soul, etc)) and as such it will prove quite timeless. In 10 years time it will look less dated than the BMW G20 3 series (released 2019, 2 years after model 3) will. The front wing creases, the rear haunches and the ninja-mask front end have all grown on me, as have the proportions (roof still looks a little high because it's a continuous curve, but I like the long wheelbase, short overhang look). To me, the Model 3 seems to look like a saloon version of the Ginetta G40 - there's a lot of similarities in the rear end ducktail, the taper of the rear window to the decklid, the windscreen/roof/rear screen curve, the low front end with similar curves and haunches and very short overhangs, but the model 3 is much shorter in the nose and longer in the cabin of course.

    On the interior, there are those who mistake minimalism for cheapness. Those that think the more buttons a car has, the better. But in our Volvo, there were buttons that served no useful purpose (a full phone keypad.... because I'm going to dial a number?), and then when buttons on the centre console were pressed there was a cacophany of creaking plastic. In our Lexus the mirrors stopped folding in when the car was locked - after looking through every single car setting menu and sub menu (it was on one of the menus in the centre screen on the volvo) I gave up.... eventually realising that it was the button on the door near the window switches just marked "auto" with a little green LED telltale. Of note, that's one of 13 buttons in the lexus that is only marked "auto". The Tesla does things differently - there is one place where every setting is found. There is typically only one way to do something (with a few exceptions). Tesla also make more sensible use of controls that they already do have.

    For example - in the lexus there is a 4-way joystick on the side of the steering column to set reach and rake (electric adjust). On the driver's door there's a 4-way D pad and 4 buttons to select and set mirror positions and fold. These are controls that you fiddle with just a few times while you set your seat position and maybe iterate a few times. Then the setting is saved to your driver position. So what Tesla did was they reused some of the steering wheel controls - when you open the mirror position or steering column position dialogue then the steering wheel controls operate those. You close the dialogue and the position is saved to driver profile and the steering wheel control goes back to being volume/skip/voice command. Why muddle up the cabin with buttons that aren't really needed? I haven't touched the mirror controls in the Lexus in over a year because the mirrors are set where I need them.

    The ventilation system is amazing. Moving away from plastic twiddly vents that haven't really changed since the 70s, air is pushed out of two slots on the dashboard - vanes deeper in the slots control where the airflow goes, and the relative strength of the two streams allows you to move the airflow around. The result is that rather than 2 concentrated jets of air from 2 vents you get a very diffuse, soft ventilation. You don't have two cold streams of air in a warm cabin, or vice versa. The climate control feels comfortable without blowing a gale on you in almost every condition. It's much more pleasant and quieter.

    The windscreen comes much lower down than other cars, because the front end of the car is low and short and the lower dashboard without a driver's binnacle. Your view of the road is better. The lack of a binnacle is absolutely not a problem. Our Lexus has a HUD, which gives the speed very clearly and in your normal line of sight, and as such I NEVER bother looking into the binnacle to try to decipher an analogue gauge. The Leaf had a digital speed display just below the windscreen, that was functionally very similar to the HUD. The Tesla puts the speed in a large, clear font at the top right corner of the main display, and this falls in your peripheral vision - I don't find myself searching for it nor being unaware of what my speed is. It's functionally very close to the Lexus and Leaf in that regard. I've now found that whenever I have rental cars or pool cars I now have to set the driver's info display to the large digital MPH meter because trying to decipher other things is just more time consuming.

    Seats are a great fit for me and I find them very comfortable - more than the Lexus (I can't get on with the Lexus lumbar support). The Model S had slightly odd shaped seats that put pressure on my shoulder blades, but the 3 seats are flatter at the top. They could be better - adjustable bolsters and real leather would make them so.

    The Model 3 is an amazing car to sit in the back seat of, because it's unlike any other saloon car. The roof is glass from front to back, but in fact there are only 3 pieces - the Windscreen, the top panel from A Pillar/windscreen to the cross-brace in line with the B-pillar, and then there's a single piece of glass from the b-pillar cross brace all the way to the bootlid. That means the rear passengers sit under glass with an amazing open view of the sky. The cabin floor is totally flat, so there's no transmission tunnel or anything to deal with for middle seat passengers, or allowing 2 rear passengers a bit more space to spread out.


    (not my pic)

    The touchscreen... something that so many people think "oh no, that's terrible". It really isn't. Controls like ventilation, heated seats, etc are on a row at the bottom of the screen that is permanently visible and they don't move about. They are accessible (unlike the heated seat controls in the Lexus that are totally inaccessible if you have the cupholder open. The sat nav is responsive and quick, voice controls work accurately and the way you think they should (ie, "Navigate to Manchester Airport" sets a route to manchester airport - the Leaf and Lexus required single word commands to work through a menu tree, and couldn't accept a spoken destination, just allowed you to pick from a list of POI or recents). Then there are a few "hidden" shortcuts - for example, instead of pressing the search box in sat nav, swiping across it to the right will set the destination to home. Swiping left sets destination to work. Swiping across the volume button or cabin temp will adjust those settings directly (without opening it for the slider). But again, simple direct voice commands like "turn off seat heater" work well. And of course, there are some comedy ones ("My husband has a hot butt" - turns off passenger seat heater. "Keep Summer Safe" - turns on Sentry Mode)

    Talking of comedy, Teslas have easter eggs. They don't take themselves so seriously. That should be obvious when their car line up is called S3XY (Ford spoiled it by having a trademark on Model E). There's Emissions Testing Mode (virtual whoopy cushion that can be placed on different seats), Rainbow Road (More Cowbell!), Christmas mode (car visualisations are replaced with a sleigh, and the indicator tick-tock is replaced with sleighbells), Romance mode (video and audio of a log fire, turns up the heater). Some people think it's all silly or pointless sure, but if it entertains then what's the problem?

    Updates

    Tesla tend to release a software update every 4 weeks - these download over home Wifi and take about 25 minutes for the car to apply once downloaded. These updates contain a number of things - they include bugfixes, learning updates (for the neural nets) and feature improvements. Some examples new features we've had:

    5% Max motor power increase
    70% peak charging speed increase (from 100kW to 170kW)
    Dashcam mode (constantly record 4 of the autopilot cameras as an all-around dashcam)
    Sentry mode (use the same 4 autopilot cameras as a CCTV system while the car is parked, in case someone bumps or vandalises)
    Theatre mode (use the screen to play Netflix, Youtube, Twitch whilst parked waiting for someone or charging)
    Arcade (yes - you can play games, including cuphead, beach buggy racing, Fallout Shelter, etc)
    Deep Rain (new weather condition neural net that controls auto wipers and feeds weather info to autopilot)
    New driving visualisations (car can identify cars, pickup trucks, lorries, motorbikes, cycles, pedestrians, lane markings, turn lanes, traffic lights, cones, wheelie bins, etc, etc, etc)
    One Pedal driving (let off throttle and it will come to a complete stop by itself. You quickly learn when to back off to come to a stop without touching the brake pedal - I have managed to drive my 12.5 mile commute without touching the brake pedal)

    Over time the neural nets notably improve - often when an AI feature is first introduced it can be a bit unpredictable or not ideal in its behaviour (ELDA (Emergency Lane Departure Assistance) was one, Deep Rain was another), but they improve over time. You have to remember that every Tesla has all of the autopilot sensors, cameras and computing power, as well as 4G connectivity. They feed back driving situations, and every time a person overrides the car or the car takes emergency action then all of the data is fed back to Tesla - they can inspect the data, see what happened and why and use that data as part of the "Dojo" for training the neural nets. The most difficult part of trying to create an autonomous driving system isn't how to drive down a road, but it's dealing with those rare corner cases of a number of strange different things happening all at once - Tesla literally has a million cars driving billions of miles per year providing all the data of those corner cases. Waymo, Cruise, Zoox, etc simply don't have the datasets for their neural nets to learn from.

    Quality

    There's a lot said by a lot of people on this topic. Quality is mixed - the interior build quality is fine except for one buzzy rattle that I'm working on tracking down. It's not a match for the Lexus in material build quality, but I prefer it to our neighbour's 330d GT. The screen and controls are solid and feel good, doors feel good and seats are comfortable but as I said before could do with nicer material.

    Exterior quality is more mixed. Our car is fine, but I've seen some that are much worse for panel gaps and paint quality. Tesla desperately need to improve the consistency of this.... but then again, I've seen some utterly shonky Jaguar XEs. The paint on ours is ok, except that it seems to chip very easily. Others have had worse. I don't know if ours is unusually good or if the internet echo chambers just amplify the horror stories.

    Ultimately though, that's the window dressing. The underlying car is very strong and solid, the suspension and drivetrain are superbly engineered and built, it's just the top level fit and finish that's a bit lacking. Would you rather eat in a michelin-starred restaurant with amazing food but slightly shabby decor, or pay the same for an immaculate mcdonald's?

    Travelling and Charging

    Something I hear an awful lot of is "Oh well, that's fine around town but useless if you actually want to go somewhere", or "I won't have one until it can go 600 miles on a single charge and takes 5 minutes or less to refill, my time is far too valuable".

    Let's be clear about one thing - It's incredibly rare to ever be waiting for the car to charge. Most of the time when I charge it is when I'm doing something else, like working or sleeping. Charge times at home or office are largely irrelevant. Few of us spend more than 2 hours a day in our cars, fewer still spend more than 4 hours. Even if you spend 8 hours a day in your car, that means there's still 16 hours that the car can be charging that won't bother you in the slightest. Would you rather charge your phone at home every night, or take it once a week to the phone shop, wait in line and fill it up with £5 of "phone juice"?

    Long journeys are the situation where you might wait for the car to charge. For our SR+ you can on a basic level assume that from a full charge you can travel on the motorway for 3 hours before needing to stop to charge, and then after 25-30 minutes you will have enough charge for the next 2 hours of your journey. Realistically, you're going to stop for 10-15 minutes on a 5 hour journey anyway, so you're only looking at a 10-15 minute addition to your journey as compared to an ICE vehicle. You just multi-purpose your stop - plug the car in before you go to pee and get coffee. In 10 months and 7k miles I've waited for it to charge on about 10 occasions.

    As for what your time is worth... well, given that on domestic electricity the Tesla costs about 3p/mile to fuel (2p/mile on E7, 0.5p/mile on my workplace charger, 6p/mile on Tesla Superchargers), compared to about 20p/mile for an equivalent petrol (330i, around 30mpg), you're saving about 15p per mile. On our 5 hour journey (300 miles?) then that's a £45 saving for 15 minutes of extra time. So... if you earn £180 per hour AFTER tax and deductions then sure, it's not worth your time - but that means a gross salary in excess of £500k, and then you're probably not looking at buying a £38k car. For us mere mortals our time really isn't that valuable, otherwise we wouldn't be giving it to our employers for far less.

    The Tesla supercharger network is massively better than any other charging network. Not only for reliability and widespread highspeed chargers (120-150kW default - the vast majority of other rapid chargers are 50kW), but for ease of use; you just plug it in. The car identifies itself and you will be billed to your credit card - other networks require you to faff with apps or payment cards before charging will begin. By saving you 1 minute of faffing around getting the charge started you either get 1 minute more charge or on your way sooner.

    We took a trip around Scotland during September of last year, going as far north as Inverness. Chargeplace Scotland has a range of chargers all across scotland and mostly free to use - our entire 1000 mile road trip cost us a total of £6 in fuel.



    Costs

    £0 road tax. £0 Luxury Car Tax. £0 servicing (Teslas do not require annual servicing - they require a brake fluid inspection every 2 years and a coolant inspection every 5 years) - no cam belts, spark plugs, oil, filters, etc. Brakes wear far less (the majority of braking is done by motor regeneration, converting the car's motion back into electrical energy and storing it back in the battery, instead of wearing brakes). Insurance cost is lower than the Lexus and in fact on par with the Leaf (which is a bit weird, as it's a group 48 car). Tyres will run around 2-3p/mile (last ~20-25k, cost £600ish for PS4s).

    In other words, the running costs of this car are less than the cheapest econobox ICE vehicle, and massively less than anything of equivalent performance, handling and spec (so, Merc C300, Volvo S60 T5, Audi A4 45 TFSI, BMW 330i, Lexus IS300h, etc).

    Depreciation is the big unknown of course, but currently a used model 3 of our spec is around £35k from a private seller, which is less than 10% depreciation (meanwhile, a year old 3 series will have depreciated more like 35%). One thing that I am totally confident of is that in 5 years it will have depreciated FAR less than a 330i or 330d or any other ICE. In 5 years time we will be much further down the road to EVs. More and more cities will have banned all ICE vehicles and it will be difficult to sell used ICE cars. Used EVs will maintain their value as there's very little to watch for (no cambelts, DPF issues, etc)

    And of course, "But how much will it cost to replace the battery?". This old chestnut.... the answer is that it won't. Tesla's previous generation batteries in the Model S and X last an incredibly long time - there are battery packs out there with 300-400k miles on that have maintained around 80% of their new capacity. These battery packs are effectively abused - multiple supercharging sessions per day. The battery pack in our model 3, even if it only manages 1500 charge cycles would still take the car beyond 300k miles. That is more than the absolutely vast, overwhelming majority of cars are ever driven. Battery lifetime is simply a non-issue. In the 12200 miles we had our Leaf it suffered from 0.4% battery degradation (batteries degrade on an S-curve. The first year to 18 months will show the largest drop, then it will level out for a long period) because I treated the battery well. You can cause significant degradation to an EV battery pack by mistreating it (just as you can cause damage to an ICE by mistreating, eg hard revs from cold), but treating it sensibly will maintain it for a long time.

    Random stuff

    The "key" is a passive RFID credit card, kind of like a hotel room key. £20 to replace or add new ones, and you can pair them to the car yourself without a visit to the dealer. However, they are really the backup, as your phone works as a keyless device. Again, pair as many phones as keys as you want. Encrypted Bluetooth isn't vulnerable to relay attack like normal keyfobs are.

    Even if someone does gain access to the car, there's a Transporter style PIN-to-drive function, requiring tapping in a code before the car will drive. The code entry box pops up in different locations around the screen so that you don't give away the code through a consistent set of fingerprints left on the screen.

    There is a built-in charging dock for 2 phones. It's brilliantly well done and has a lid that closes over it so your phones are hidden.

    Summary

    Told you it was long.

    The model 3 isn't flawless. Of course it isn't, no car is. It is, however, the closest to flawless of any car that I've ever owned or driven, by some way. It's a car that makes me look forward to commuting and puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. I love how it goes, stops, turns, responds. I like how it looks and love the interior. I'd like it to have a bit less road noise and nicer seat materials. It would probably be nicer with some better dampers, but that's true of many a base-spec car.

    So, if I had a bunch of money come in would I keep it? The only thing that remotely interests me as a replacement for our Model 3 is a Tesla Model Y LR. Since you can't buy that here for another year or so then at this point my answer must be Yes, I'd keep it.

    Last edited by I-S; 01-07-2020 at 10:35 PM.

  19. #39
    TAR's Avatar

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    Wow!

    That was a long... and informative read. Thanks for posting. I frequent another car forum where the relative merits of electric vehicles has some very polar opinions, mostly from people who don't own one!

    It's refreshing to hear a real world view.

    And a whole years worth of posts in a single entry

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAR View Post
    Wow!

    That was a long... and informative read. Thanks for posting. I frequent another car forum where the relative merits of electric vehicles has some very polar opinions, mostly from people who don't own one!

    It's refreshing to hear a real world view.

    And a whole years worth of posts in a single entry
    Thanks. It is remarkable the number of armchair experts that are 100% certain that EVs are awful... so much so that there's absolutely no need to drive one to find out. My own experience (of Leaf owners, other EVs, Teslas) is that few people go back to ICE.

    There's a guy at my work who is absolutely kicking himself for taking a 3-year lease on a Merc CLA since i took him for a ride in the 3. His summer weekend toy is a Ferrari 360 (he's worked REALLY hard to buy his dream car, plus he made about £25k profit on the 355 he had before. Bought the dip on both), and even he was shocked at how it goes.

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