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Thread: URGERT HELP NEEDED V6 NA Estate

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    URGERT HELP NEEDED V6 NA Estate

    Hi guys I got my dad's V6 NA and it doesn't want to start at all!

    Long story short.. he went to get an engine wash which I didn't advise.. but still went with it... Drove home fine and drove him to work the next morning... But then didn't start when leaving and ever since... It's just doesn't want to start!

    I've changed the Cam/timing sensor which sits at the bottom of the pulley thinking it was that but it's not.

    Car is getting spark,Fuel and is turning over!

    My possible speculation now is that the ECU is fried.

    I have done the ECU/OBD jumper pin to see what code it throws and nothing regards to engine.... The engine light just constantly flashes not giving a code!

    Anyone else come across this no start issue? Because I really need this car back on the road!

    If anyone has a spare ECU around Birmingham I can collect to even try it!

    Or any pointers I should be looking at!

    Appreciated
    Dips!

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    Timing out ?
    possibly the clubs first manual super

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    Nope timing is bang on :/

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    @foxdie can you help?

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    Spark on all 6 cylinders?

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    With fuel and spark, something should be happening?

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    Yeah with fuel and ignition it should at least try to start. Could be the belt has slipped if it's gotten wet.

    Doubtful the ECU will have died from an engine wash.
    @VR4-Dipsy where abouts in Birmingham are you? I can't guarantee I have a working ECU but I do have EvoScan.
    Want your car tuning? Here's my pricing
    Have questions about performance upgrades and ECU tuning? Before PM'ing me, Check this thread first
    Please support CVR4 & become a Full member, you get a full years access to guides, games, chat & much more!

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    VR4-Dipsy's Avatar

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    Nothing at all... Belt shows nothing slipped or any dig marks but when checking if the plugs were wet only front bank was wet rear bank dry as the desert!

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    @foxdie that's what I'm thinking doubt ECU is fried ... I'm in Sparkhill B11 postcode... Possibly evoscan could show something up of what the engine is trying to do?

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    @VR4-Dipsy - Were all the plugs on the back dry? or did you just check one?

    Even on an NA ECU, each injector is driven individually (ignition however is just one coil for all plugs with a distributor).

    It is highly unlikely that the ECU has suffered electrical damage to three outputs at the same time, it's far more likely a +12V power supply issues to the rear three banks, such as a damaged wire.

    I believe the ECU holds the injector wires to GND to keep the injector closed and it's the change of state that triggers it. From past experience, if an injector wire is damaged or disconnected near the ECU, or if a relevant component in the ECU has failed, that line goes to floating and the injector sticks open, resulting in way more fuel than necessary and the plugs would be soaking wet.

    Helpful information:

    * VR-4 ECU Pinout (still relevant): https://www.dropbox.com/s/j3rfuph9s3...inout.pdf?dl=0
    * NA V6 Wiring Diagram: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vvfvaoregv...FINAL.pdf?dl=0

    For the above wiring diagram, here are some useful pages;

    * 2-12 - Engine bay wiring for the NA V6
    * 4-86 - ECU area wiring diagram
    * 4-90 - As the above but specifically the injectors 4-90, the rear three bank of injectors are 1/3/5 respectively starting with bank 1 being closest to the driver on RHD cars, these wires are located at the top left most of the ECU pins (pins 1 / 2 / 3 on the 26 way connector)


    Ps. Given the COVID-19 situation I'm admittedly reluctant to leave the house as I am technically on the vulnerable list as I have a pre-existing respiratory condition, if it's genuinely a last resort I'll dig out an ECU from the garage and you can come collect it from Marston Green.

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    @foxdie
    All of three of them were dry at the back.. all the plastic shielding which goes around the wires were super brittle so could lead to a break in the wiring I suppose.

    thanks for that info will check it all out properly with the info you've given and will update on here

    Yes I appreciate that and understand with Covid 19 situ

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    Does the V6 have an IFS? (Ignition failure sensor). If so, check that. There are instructions somewhere on how to bypass the sensor.

    How did you verify spark? As said, with air, fuel and spark the engine should at least be trying to work.

    One thing you could try is check the coils, it is possible for them to be grounding through the engine rather than the plug. You usually check them by misting water (spray bottle) over them while running. Seems odd that all would stop at once though.

    If the injectors are running and the coils are sparking, then you are not left with much.

    1) Pull the MAF and see if it runs
    2) Crack the fuel rail and make sure there is pressure (dangerous) to the injectors.

    After that, I would check crank and cam sensors. I think you checked the cam sensor, if so then also check the crank sensor.

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    @foxdie have checked voltages on each injector plug and have 12v present even when trying to start, will check ECU pins next and see if theres anything happening there
    truly stumped on what the heck is wrong with the car.
    @Kenneth im not sure, i have found a diagram for that on the ozvr4 page so will try to bypass sensor. spark by using my spark test tool but will double check again.
    i dont understand the misting water part you are saying.
    1) pulled the maf and still nothing... was one of the first things i did as i do know theyre known to go time to time.
    2) cracked fuel rail today and yep theres pressure and fuel there.

    crank cam sensor.... ive replaced the crank sensor (behind crank pulley at the bottom of the engine) is there a cam sensor too? because i cant see it on the NA V6

    cheers for the replies so far

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    the injector will be fired with a ground connection provided by the ECU.
    you need to monitor the gnd trigger side of the injector.
    when the injector is not being fired the gnd trigger side of the injector will be at 12V when the ecu provides the ground trigger signal the trigger side of the injector will go to gnd.
    you can monitor this with a digital volt meter as it will show 12v when injector is not triggered then when the injector is triggered the trigger side of the injector will be less than the measured 12v it will pobably not show 0V as the meter does not have enough time to register 0V before the trigger signal is removed 12v is shown again. so as long as the trigger side goes to less than 12v the ecu is probably triggering the injector correctly. you get the idea anyway.
    the only way to really be sure is to use an oscilloscope to see the actual way form.

    Bye for Now!

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    @foxdie is it possible for me to grab an ECU off you? As I've just changed the dizzy cap and rotor arm still nothing... When trying to start, belts are moving slow... Don't know if that helps anyone

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    If the belts are moving slow then so is the crank?

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    Quote Originally Posted by VR4-Dipsy View Post
    @foxdie have checked voltages on each injector plug and have 12v present even when trying to start, will check ECU pins next and see if theres anything happening there
    truly stumped on what the heck is wrong with the car.
    @Kenneth im not sure, i have found a diagram for that on the ozvr4 page so will try to bypass sensor. spark by using my spark test tool but will double check again.
    i dont understand the misting water part you are saying.
    1) pulled the maf and still nothing... was one of the first things i did as i do know theyre known to go time to time.
    2) cracked fuel rail today and yep theres pressure and fuel there.

    crank cam sensor.... ive replaced the crank sensor (behind crank pulley at the bottom of the engine) is there a cam sensor too? because i cant see it on the NA V6

    cheers for the replies so far
    have you checked the injector like i described in my response to you. if not then you have not checked the injectors correctly the are ground fired injectors just because ther is 12 volts on both sides of the injector does not mean it is working.

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    @Davezj just checked each injector now via the old school method of attaching a bulb to each one

    You can see it pulse and trigger so it is telling it to inject etc strong pulses

    Just can't get my mind around it now grr

    Think I may have to try another ECU?

    Also is there any hidden starter relays of some sort hidden behind the dash? As me owning a Honda they have one hidden behind the dash and that sometimes goes bad and doesn't allow the car to start..
    @nickmann placed jumpleads on the car with my own tried to start it and it started to spin quicker than before 🤦*♂️ but still no sign of life yet


    Any other pointers I should be checking?

    Thx

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    Quote Originally Posted by VR4-Dipsy View Post
    @Davezj just checked each injector now via the old school method of attaching a bulb to each one

    You can see it pulse and trigger so it is telling it to inject etc strong pulses

    Just can't get my mind around it now grr

    Think I may have to try another ECU?

    Also is there any hidden starter relays of some sort hidden behind the dash? As me owning a Honda they have one hidden behind the dash and that sometimes goes bad and doesn't allow the car to start..
    @nickmann placed jumpleads on the car with my own tried to start it and it started to spin quicker than before * but still no sign of life yet


    Any other pointers I should be checking?

    Thx
    So from an electrical point of view the injectors being triggered correctly if you can see the pulsing. But it does not mean the injectors are actually opening and closing. This opening and closing is quite loud with a sharp tick tick tick as they are firing. So you can get a screw driver and put it on the top of each injector and put you ear to the screwdriver handle and listen to the injector fire.
    Sorry this would have probably been an easier thing to do than measure all the voltages. But you can't get to all the injectors with the plenum camber fitted.

    Just as a side question where did you probe to check all the injectors wee being triggered correctly.
    The most likely inductors to get stuck or fail are the ones under the plenum.

    Sent from my MI 5s using Tapatalk

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