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Thread: Potential wiring gremlin

  1. #1

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    Potential wiring gremlin

    I've been having cold starting problems for a while now. Replaced battery a while ago (second hand) and it seemed to have cured the problem for a bit but now I'm experiencing similar problems again, with some added bonuses..
    I use the car at least twice a week but every time I go to start it, I have to use a boost pack. I haven't had a chance to test the battery with a proper tester yet but something tells me there's another issue killing my batteries..
    Plugged it in the other day and a load of permanent engine fault codes:

    * 12 - AFS
    * 21 - Coolant temp sensor
    * 23 - Cam position sensor
    * 24 - Speed sensor
    * 25 - Barometric pressure sensor
    * 31 - Knock sensor
    * 41 - Injector
    * 53 - Ignition signal 3
    * 61 - Elc 4AT comm.
    * 36 - Ig Adj Termi

    These did not clear even after battery was disconnected for over an hour.
    Other symptoms that may or not be relevant:

    * Occasional erratic idle
    * Starter motor struggles to engage (single click) even with boost pack
    * Every time I get out of the car, I get a static-like electric shock and this is getting rather annoying now

    Has anyone experienced something like that?
    The chances of all these sensors failing at the same time are quite slim - does anyone know what do all these components share? Could it be a common earth/relay/wiring section or ECU? Or could it be down to a duff battery?
    I haven't got access to a wiring diagram so any suggestions welcome

  2. #2
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    Its definitely looking like the battery is flat when you go to use it. The faults are not worth worrying about until you can get that stabilised.

    One option you have to at least rule out the battery is to disconnect it after use, then reconnect it before you start the car. If the battery is still the same, then the battery is likely dead.

    If the car starts without any problems once you connect the battery, it is likely some fault.

    I would start with checking the current from the battery when the car is off. If you measure the current draw on the battery with the ignition completely off, you should get some idea of whether the battery is trying to power something.
    If it is, then you can check things individually, starting with the alternator. From there I would check anything not OEM, such as an alarm/immobiliser etc, then move to OEM stuff.

  3. #3
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    I agree!

    Low voltages are well known to cause erratic fault codes on these cars. I'd also ask how you are checking the codes? There are very few code readers that can correctly interrogate the ecu, I thoroughly recommend the "flashy dash" method.

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    Thanks, I'll try disconnecting the battery after I've been out today and go from there.
    As for the checking the codes, I've got an Autel MK908 which is usually quite capable..

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    I agree, check battery first. Disconnecting it between using it should tell you if you've got a parasitic drain, or if the battery is just knackered.

    Secondly, always flashy-dash method for fault-checking on these cars - but until you know you've got a decent power supply, I'd just consider those codes red herrings, and ignore them at the moment.

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    I don't think it's a dead battery - went for a drive Wednesday morning and disconnected battery straight after getting back.
    Measured 12.26V at the terminals.
    Measured again Wednesday night - dropped to 12.03V.
    Measured again this morning - 12.02V.
    Connected battery and started the car with no issues.

    I've now removed the interior aftermarket LED bulbs that I fitted last year..I'll leave battery connected and check again tomorrow morning..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Rose MS View Post
    I don't think it's a dead battery - went for a drive Wednesday morning and disconnected battery straight after getting back.
    Measured 12.26V at the terminals.
    Measured again Wednesday night - dropped to 12.03V.
    Measured again this morning - 12.02V.
    Connected battery and started the car with no issues.

    I've now removed the interior aftermarket LED bulbs that I fitted last year..I'll leave battery connected and check again tomorrow morning..

    12.26 isn't a great voltage for just after a drive. Id expect close to 13v!
    possibly there is an issue with alternator or charging circuit? what is the battery voltage with engine running? if there is huge ripple from a faulty alternator that might explain some of the issues?

    FYI you are looking at ~25% charged after resting. https://www.random-science-tools.com...id-battery.htm is a good resource for checking this.

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    I know 12.26V isn't great but it's not too bad for an old battery either..and it starts the car with no issues.
    It's 14.4 when running, I also had the alternator tested a while ago and was told it works as it should.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Rose MS View Post
    I've been having cold starting problems for a while now. Replaced battery a while ago (second hand) and it seemed to have cured the problem for a bit but now I'm experiencing similar problems again, with some added bonuses..
    I use the car at least twice a week but every time I go to start it, I have to use a boost pack. I haven't had a chance to test the battery with a proper tester yet but something tells me there's another issue killing my batteries..
    Plugged it in the other day and a load of permanent engine fault codes:

    * 12 - AFS
    * 21 - Coolant temp sensor
    * 23 - Cam position sensor
    * 24 - Speed sensor
    * 25 - Barometric pressure sensor
    * 31 - Knock sensor
    * 41 - Injector
    * 53 - Ignition signal 3
    * 61 - Elc 4AT comm.
    * 36 - Ig Adj Termi

    These did not clear even after battery was disconnected for over an hour.
    Other symptoms that may or not be relevant:

    * Occasional erratic idle
    * Starter motor struggles to engage (single click) even with boost pack
    * Every time I get out of the car, I get a static-like electric shock and this is getting rather annoying now

    Has anyone experienced something like that?
    The chances of all these sensors failing at the same time are quite slim - does anyone know what do all these components share? Could it be a common earth/relay/wiring section or ECU? Or could it be down to a duff battery?
    I haven't got access to a wiring diagram so any suggestions welcome
    hi will,
    you code reader is lying to you. it is not reading the code correctly these car do not full OBDII protacol these use mitsi MUT version and have an on board dash display for all code from all the ecus on the car. "flashy dash"
    only use the "flashy dash" method of checking error code. method is well documented on here and is a free way to check code. no special tools, just a bent paper clip. to bridge pins 1 and 4 or just ground pin 1 in the ODBII connector (pin 4 is gnd).

    the no cranking, starter motor/solenoid click, is very common, my can has been doing this for years. it is just the starter solenoid bad connection or bad part. replace it if you want. but i treat it as a security feature. if you have to try 15 time to start the car then thief will try maybe 10-12 times before giving up and running away as the alarm is sounding.

    static shock on entre or exit of the car is you not the car. stop wearing nylon underpants and rubber soled shoes, but in al seriousness the startic shock will be you and you choice of clothing and foot ware.

    once you have ruled these three things out there is a much smaller list of things to look at.

    check these and get back to us.

    and it is just the idle which should be straight forward to sort out.

    Bye for Now!

  10. #10

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    Just a quick update - after removing the LEDs this morning, went out for a drive and measured 12.27V at battery terminals shortly after I got back.
    That was about 8 hours ago.
    Took another reading just now and it's already dropped to 11.92V.
    Will do it again in morning but there's obviously something draining the battery while parked up..

  11. #11
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    your alarm will be using battery power for sure.

    I also occasionally get a shock when exiting the car.
    '97 Manual Legnum in silver with some subtle mods

    My first VR4 - '97 Legnum Dark Green & mean ...it was love at first sight - now sold

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    Tried the flashy dash this morning after being out for a drive - doesn't seem to have any fault codes - the engine light just flashes at a steady speed, no pattern to it.
    Also, put on a pair of sandals and didn't get a shock, must have been these shoes I got from Tesco for a fiver..so that's sorted.
    I agree with the solenoid on starter causing the non cranking, may replace it if it gets worse.
    Battery voltage still dropping when parked up but I can't really see it being the alarm as this got fitted when the car was imported back in 2012 and the battery issues didn't until at least 6 years after the alarm was fitted.

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    I still reckon it's a knackered battery, that's at the end of its life, so even the small drains (alarm, etc) that it used to be able to cope with, now it can't.

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    It may as well be the battery..any recommendations for a new one?

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    Literally anything the right size and shape for a standard car - only really needs uprating if you're running anything excessive, like a huge 90s style stereo.

  16. #16

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    I have a known good Moll EFB+ battery off a VW with stop/start (70Ah/420A DIN/700A SAE). It sits about 20mm over the edge of the tray but other than that, fits OK. I've just stuck it on and been for a 5-mile run..charged up to 12.5V which in my opinion is rather good, considering the cells should add up to 12.6V..
    Will just leave it overnight and see if and how much it'll drop.

    Also, using my code reader, I've picked up a misfire on cylinder 2..something that may need investigating..
    Last edited by Will Rose MS; 01-06-2020 at 02:10 PM.

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    Well..after leaving the new battery on overnight, I've just been out and measured 12.24V at the terminals so it's lost 0.26V since yesterday afternoon.
    Looks like it's back to the drawing board..
    Also, pulled out the aftermarket radio..see how that goes
    Last edited by Will Rose MS; 02-06-2020 at 08:26 AM.

  18. #18
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    if you have a multi-meter, you can see the current draw from the battery. I would connect it up and see what the draw is, then start removing fuses to see what makes a difference.

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    Finally, after the weather improved a bit, got out there and measured the current draw tonight.
    With all the fuses fitted, the draw was 0.66A.
    This dropped to 0.11-0.12A after I removed the fuse for interior lights.
    I already removed all the LED bulbs a couple of days ago so the next step should be checking the wiring.
    Thought I'd just leave the fuse out to save the battery but when it came to locking the car, the alarm said no by beeping at me. This usually happens when a door isn't shut properly. Put fuse back, everything works fine.
    So looks like the aftermarket alarm has something to do with the interior light circuit as well, maybe a shared fuse?
    At least narrowed it down a bit but still some time will have to be spent.
    I also pulled all the other fuses but the 0.12A draw remained..

  20. #20
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    The alarm will be getting its feed for the door pins from the interior light circuit somehow, so that makes sense.

    All the ECUs in the car will be drawing a little power (engine, gearbox especially to keep their learned information), plus stereo.

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