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Thread: twin turbo Vs Big single?

  1. #21
    Davezj's Avatar

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    just thought i would let you knowi have ordered one of these china turbos to see what size and location a big single could fit in in the engine bay.

    the biggest issue as i see it is the throttle body position i would want to keep it in its original position.
    i do not know what to do with the inlet pipework if there is a big turbo sat on top of the gear box.
    it might go behind the plenum and around and down to the intercooler.
    but this still leaves the the pipework from the intercooler to the turbo the outlet of the turgo must be clocked down towards the intercooler.
    then there is the MAF in the front of the turbo. hmm room is running out very quickly.
    which is why others doing a big single have relocated the throttle body to the other side of the plenum chamber.


    just thinking out loud.


    i think the china turbo will allow me to make a choice as to what to do next.
    i think it is supposed to be very similar to a holset HY35 turbo.
    Last edited by Davezj; 01-06-2020 at 08:29 PM.

    Bye for Now!

  2. #22
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    i have ordered one of these china turbos i thought for £85, if i do something with it then good, but if i don't it will make a nice paper weight.
    i just want something physical in my hands to judge what size it is and where it could fit.
    fitting a big single in to the engine bay will be the biggest issue.
    keeping the throttle body in the standard location is the main issue, what to do with the inlet pipework.

    oh well a week or so i will have it in my hands to see what is going on.

  3. #23
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    My engine bay is pretty much empty atm, well only bare engine with box holds by two left and right mounts so if you want there's plenty of room to play with.
    I think battery to the boot is the must for this conversion to be attempted, then I think feed to the tub from bottom, intake with maf where battery used to be, to the IC bechind plenum where original pipe are back to the throttle can be tricky as there's big ass turbo on the way.
    I'm pretty sure is doable and not need to be plan as we can go along as we there, kind of lpg install
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  4. #24
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    it seems a pretty reasonable thing to do,
    i think you might be surprised how big these turbos are.

    oh well i clicked the buy it now so it will be here in a week or two so i will let you know when it turns up.

    yes battery in the boot is a good idea.

  5. #25
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    Kind of like this install

    2.jpg3.jpg4.jpg

  6. #26
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    Damn you both, I've got bodywork to be dealing with first, but why do I get the feeling I'm going to be spending loads of time strapping a big turbo on first... Well, what the wife doesn't know won't hurt her, right...?

    I think you'll find you will need to move the throttle body to the opposite side as you will run out of space quickly - I've got a TIG welder capable of aluminium, so you can send your plenum my way if you want...

    You're starting to make me feel even more excited about starting work on my Legnum! This S4 just isn't doing it for me!

  7. #27
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    I'll preface this by saying I'm no where near as experienced as you other guys when it comes to engine building and also no where near being able to do a turbo upgrade yet lol.

    I did notice in the video they compared the twin turbos with old tech vs the single with modern tech, plus the single had a nice new twin scroll manifold to help it so I dont really think it was a fair comparison. It would have been better to test new twins + aftermarket manifold against the new single, or old vs old + stock manifold. I dont know if they looked at the compressor maps but the twins are probably also getting out of their efficiency range so maybe some new larger twins would have also been more comparable.

    Then there's this video where the the team went from a single to a twin turbo setup and got much better results at the same boost pressure. This car is near the top end of world time attack so they really know what they're doing.



    So... I guess just do whatever makes you happy? Of course with the 6A13T there are also not many builds/ setups to compare differences to clearly say which is "better". Single does seem to be the simpler option though and there probably isn't too difference in much performance either way these days.
    If money wasnt a problem I'd like to stuff these into my engine bay some how https://www.hks-power.co.jp/en/produ...turbo/db/21310
    Daily driver / circuit car / drag car / show car / weekend cruiser / project car

  8. #28
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    Another interesting point - with modern turbos being so good, at moderate power levels, a single still provides good low down driveability, that that benefit of the twins is somewhat outweighed.

    I agree, it would be nice to see a comparison with modern twins - but finding something that fits in the very tight spaces we have is of course difficult, and generally motorsport isn't using turbos that small...

    That video is interesting, but they did also say that up to around 500-600hp they were finding that for a road car, a single was also better than twins - again, maybe because the twins are older technology compared to the singles that people are fitting...

    Plus, if I'm buying turbos and customising everything, it's easier to do that work once, to a single turbo, than twice to two turbos!

  9. #29
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    Exactly what Garry said, there's not much room to fit bigger/newer twins, even with most common upgrade for 2x T04 its to do all manifolds, intake, dumps, downpipes, oil feeds and returns, water feeds and return AND do it again on the other side where with single it seems soo much easier. @Confused I have plenty of spare plenums to play with if needed now looks like we all waiting excited until Dave get parcel from China.

  10. #30
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    he is a very simple explanation of MBT





    can you find MBT on the road?

    Last edited by Davezj; 03-06-2020 at 11:04 AM.

  11. #31
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    the turbo i have ordered is a HY35 holset equivalent size it says it is a t04e 0.5 trim 0.63 A/R

    i think it will only really be any good for inital playing with it is not the turbo you would want to finalise your build on. but i should be fun to have something real in your hands to get a feel for what could be in our future.

  12. #32
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    the video in oblivian's post is talking about 1100hp 1200hp on a 2.8 RB engine and using smaller twins over a very big single. i love the video and have been a fan of HP Academy for years they have loads of great content and very well presented.

    the required power we are talking is less than half that more 400-450hp range (without engine mods) so one of these smaller twins would be our big single. it puts it into perspective that what we are trying do is easily achievable we just have to pick which way we want to do it.
    in the video he is also talking about full boost coming on at 7000rpm, our engines are almost out of rev range at 7000rpm with out engine mods.

  13. #33
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    Yeah have a think about it and would not want to exceed 450 on standard bottom end, then when that becomes boring may bite the bullet and start messing about forging bottom
    What I trying to say i would happily dial power back to be on safe side instead of chasing big numbers, see this happen when ppl turbo charging Nissan 350/370 they have to be dialled down to below 500 on stock bottom and are reliable.
    Have a bit poke in engine bay trying to visualise single and there will be an issue with main thick loom come across this area so need to be moved also with Tb moving on the other side there will be quite a few wires to extend. On the upside I have a look on exhaust manifolds and this looks to easy to be truth, as Dave mentioned, just a case of do flanges which seems to be very easy, Little triangle with big hole in the middle and 3 for studs, looks like it could be done with sheet of steel and couple of hours with basic tools, beauty of this is you can always back to stock twin setup, also exhaust side from single looks promising to exit where originally exit was from rear turbo.
    Still looks very doable.

  14. #34
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    it takes a lot of consideration.
    i was wondering what space there is between the bonnet and the top of the throttle body to see if the inlet pipework could loop back over the top of the plenum to the left hand side of the engine and route as the standard pipe does.
    or round the back of the engine at the top with lots of heat shielding.
    moving the throttle body will be so much work.

  15. #35
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    What I was thinking was to cut whole pipe shaped top end of upper plenum where Tb bolt on and move right above lower plenum right between heads, imagine how cool access to rear bank plugs will be not to mention look of this setup.

  16. #36
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    Moving throttle body is less work than fabricating all that other pipework!

  17. #37
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    adam.findaly on ClubVR4.com or 6A13TT type s on OZVR4.com (same person) did a bespoke plenum for just this reason but again it is a lot of fab work just to move the throttle body.

    i designed a bespoke plenum in 3D cad to bolt onto the top of the inlet manifold for something to do a about 6 years ago. but the issue you have is screwing it down to the inlet manifold. you have to make it at least 2 part so you bolt the bottom of the plenum to the top of the inlet manufold and with a flange round the edge of the plenum bolt the top part of the plenum to the bottom part of the plenum. i will put some pics of adam findlay's plunum, i was looking at it last night.

    unfortunately he never finished it.

    Small stacks1.JPGSmall stacks w.JPGsmall stacks 3.JPG20181027_101556.jpg20170519_212214.jpg20170506_094016.jpg20170331_194031.jpg20170331_174319.jpg20170325_155806.jpg20170325_155752.jpg

    20181116_201904.jpg20181216_142230.jpg
    Last edited by Davezj; 03-06-2020 at 12:22 PM.

  18. #38
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    I was thinking just in general terms but yeah you guys are definitely right, when you consider the space and work to do on a VR4 a big single is a lot better!

    The ideas floated about plenums are really interesting. I've never really liked the OE design to be honest haha.

  19. #39
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    the plenum i design was made of ABS plastic and used off the shelf pipe fittings to make it cheap to build, there was a fair bit of cutting and heating and reshaping of the plastic but it was doable with just a form and a heat gun and pastic welding cement glue for abs pipework. the only thing i was a little unsure of was if the ABS would stand up to the under bonnet temps.

  20. #40
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    Dave, Adam vr4 project starts 2013? and AFAIK it's newer finished, yes I like to thought through what I want to do and make huge plans then plan more and more BUT not build car 7 years and its still far from finish, rather do and fail than thinking of doing and planning for rest of my life.
    As I say early, budget is around 1k, and it will be nice to finish it within lock down so I think I have to go to my shed and cut some plenums apart :-)

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