Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: Running Extremely Lean...HELP

  1. #1
    MYKEY's Avatar

    Offline
     
    Name
    Michael
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Last Online
    Today
    Posts
    486
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Location
    Essex
    Car
    Type V Saloon
     

    Running Extremely Lean...HELP

    Long story, but I've had a lean running issue on and off for around five years, i can't remember how i cured it the first time, but recently a recalibration of the Innovate O2 sensor has (seemed) to solved the problem, as i have not done anything else.
    A few months back it started running lean again (this is at idle and when driving) so i recalibrated the O2 again, it only worked for a week and it was running lean again.

    Now a recalibration does nothing, in fact i don't want to drive the car for fear of damaging the engine. This may seem like a dumb question but if the O2 sensor is reading lean and the car is in fact running lean, then surely the O2 is working correctly...or am i missing something

    There are no engine fault codes using the flashy dash method and EvoScan has nothing either. I have unplugged the MAF with the engine running and it runs better, but not great (lumpy)
    Also i have performed a vacuum leak test and that is ok 65KPA

    I have attached a video any help would really be appreciated....Cheers

    https://youtu.be/3VZEz894pJQ

    https://youtu.be/FwMDm66XZCM

  2. #2
    Nick Mann's Avatar

    Offline
     
    Name
    Nick
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Last Online
    17-03-2024
    Membership ID
    17
    Posts
    24,895
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Location
    Redditch
    Car
    Legnum type-S
    My Garage
    Visit
     
    How is your wideband set up? Is it outputting narrowband emulation for the ECU, or are you still using the stock narrowband O2 sensor for that?

    In either event, I'd be looking to see what the ECU is seeing on the narrowband emulation before anything else. Evoscan will show you, or a good multimeter across the two connections. You should be seeing it alternate either side of 0.5v as the mmix goes rich/lean. If the wideband is showing very lean but the narrowband is seeing 0.5v then the issue is on the narrowband side. If the narrowband is sitting at well over 0.5v and never dipping below then your mix is lean and the ECU knows it - there is something else going on.

  3. #3
    Confused's Avatar

    Offline
     
    Name
    Garry
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Last Online
    Today
    Membership ID
    714
    Posts
    3,537
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Location
    Notts
    Car
    Legnum VR-4
    My Garage
    Visit
     
    If it's running lean, then it could be an air leak between the MAF and the valves - I notice you've got some hard-pipe and silicon joiners - on almost every boost leak test we've done on cars with these - they've had MASSIVE boost leaks - but on cars with stock hoses - not so much!

    Unfortunately also the Innovate controllers do have a habit of killing sensors, and one of the symptoms is that they start reading lean.

  4. #4
    MYKEY's Avatar

    Offline
     
    Name
    Michael
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Last Online
    Today
    Posts
    486
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Location
    Essex
    Car
    Type V Saloon
     
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Mann View Post
    How is your wideband set up? Is it outputting narrowband emulation for the ECU, or are you still using the stock narrowband O2 sensor for that?

    In either event, I'd be looking to see what the ECU is seeing on the narrowband emulation before anything else. Evoscan will show you, or a good multimeter across the two connections. You should be seeing it alternate either side of 0.5v as the mmix goes rich/lean. If the wideband is showing very lean but the narrowband is seeing 0.5v then the issue is on the narrowband side. If the narrowband is sitting at well over 0.5v and never dipping below then your mix is lean and the ECU knows it - there is something else going on.
    To be honest Nick i don't know, i installed the Innovate MTX-l kit as per instructions in 2014 just before having the car mapped by Jason at the dyno meet. Which connections do i need to connect the multimeter to

  5. #5
    MYKEY's Avatar

    Offline
     
    Name
    Michael
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Last Online
    Today
    Posts
    486
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Location
    Essex
    Car
    Type V Saloon
     
    Quote Originally Posted by Confused View Post
    If it's running lean, then it could be an air leak between the MAF and the valves - I notice you've got some hard-pipe and silicon joiners - on almost every boost leak test we've done on cars with these - they've had MASSIVE boost leaks - but on cars with stock hoses - not so much!

    Unfortunately also the Innovate controllers do have a habit of killing sensors, and one of the symptoms is that they start reading lean.
    Here's a pic of my vacuum test Gary it seemed ok and only dropped when the car was close to stalling, i'll give all the silicone hoses a through check.
    The thing i can't understand is if the Innovate is reading lean and the car is running lean then the o2 sensor must be working ok...or am i missing something.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  6. #6
    Nick Mann's Avatar

    Offline
     
    Name
    Nick
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Last Online
    17-03-2024
    Membership ID
    17
    Posts
    24,895
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Location
    Redditch
    Car
    Legnum type-S
    My Garage
    Visit
     
    I hope this helps - lifted from a very old thread with poor information, but this bit is good:

    Quote Originally Posted by me years ago
    Our lambda sensors have four wires to them - the sensor wires and heater wires. The colours of the wires are different each side of the plug, but on the sensor side the two black wires are for the heater (you should read 12v accross them with the ignition on) and the blue and white wires are for the sensor (voltage varies depending on sensor reading). Bear in mind that the car uses a voltage read out, so the lambda reading here is not directly comparable to the MOT stations!

    The sensor is located in the exhaust, after the two downpipes join, but before the cat. The wire comes up into the car behind the cigarette lighter. The easiest way to get access is to remove the side panel of the centre console. This is the panel that goes between the glovebox lid, the carpet and the centre console.

    I connected a multimeter to the blue and white wires, selected DC voltage and started the car. My readings were jumping all over the place, lowest was 0.17V, highest was 0.92V.

  7. #7
    Nick Mann's Avatar

    Offline
     
    Name
    Nick
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Last Online
    17-03-2024
    Membership ID
    17
    Posts
    24,895
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Location
    Redditch
    Car
    Legnum type-S
    My Garage
    Visit
     
    Quote Originally Posted by MYKEY View Post
    The thing i can't understand is if the Innovate is reading lean and the car is running lean then the o2 sensor must be working ok...or am i missing something.
    Maybe. Maybe not.

    Your car self tunes when on light throttle or idle, based on feedback from the o2 sensor. The stock sensor is narrowband and the ECU does not know what to do with a wideband signal. Therefore you either still have a narrowband sensor feeding the ECU or you have narrowband emulation from your wideband controller feeding the ECU. In both of those cases it is possible that the ECU is seeing a "Rich" signal even though your wideband is displaying lean.
    It is also possible something else is going on, such as Garrys suggestions.

  8. #8
    MYKEY's Avatar

    Offline
     
    Name
    Michael
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Last Online
    Today
    Posts
    486
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Location
    Essex
    Car
    Type V Saloon
     
    Thank you Nick and Garry for all your help day off today so let the quest begin

  9. #9
    MYKEY's Avatar

    Offline
     
    Name
    Michael
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Last Online
    Today
    Posts
    486
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Location
    Essex
    Car
    Type V Saloon
     
    This may seen like a silly thing to ask but what does the highlighted value represent. TBH i'm a bit lost with all numbers and abbreviations
    Data log.png

  10. #10
    Confused's Avatar

    Offline
     
    Name
    Garry
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Last Online
    Today
    Membership ID
    714
    Posts
    3,537
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Location
    Notts
    Car
    Legnum VR-4
    My Garage
    Visit
     
    That's the "Air Fuel Ratio" that the ECU is commanding from the fuel table.

    fuel-table.JPG

    HOWEVER - it is not going to be 100% accurate to what the wideband is reading in the exhaust, as it uses various calculations within the ECU before it gets to this point, and some assumptions, which can all clock up to having a minor difference. Even though the table says, for example, 9.6 at 5500rpm/180 load, it won't actually be 9.6 AFR out the exhaust - in reality it's probably actually closer to ~11!

    This is where some of the science comes in when we tune these ECUs!

  11. #11
    MYKEY's Avatar

    Offline
     
    Name
    Michael
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Last Online
    Today
    Posts
    486
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Location
    Essex
    Car
    Type V Saloon
     
    Cheers Garry,
    The reason i ask is that the value hardly changed throughout the the data log (done at idle) always staying at 14.4~8 Even when the Innovate AFR gauge was displaying 22.4 for at least 10 seconds.
    Would this help pinpoint the reason for the lean running...

  12. #12
    Nick Mann's Avatar

    Offline
     
    Name
    Nick
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Last Online
    17-03-2024
    Membership ID
    17
    Posts
    24,895
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Location
    Redditch
    Car
    Legnum type-S
    My Garage
    Visit
     
    That's a target, not a measurement. The stock ecu is not equipped to measure afr, only rich or lean. You should have an oxygen sensor reading between 0 and 1v, but it seems that yours is reading 1.5v. This seems wrong to me although it has been a while since I used evoscan so it may be there is a quirk I don't remember, or that column is not actually an oxygen sensor.

  13. #13
    MYKEY's Avatar

    Offline
     
    Name
    Michael
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Last Online
    Today
    Posts
    486
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Location
    Essex
    Car
    Type V Saloon
     
    In an attempt to confirm or rule out my Innovate O2 sensor as the cause of my troubles i'm planning to remove it and reinstall the original O2 sensor.
    Would there be a problem with this as i'm not sure if the ECU still only reads narrowband after Jason remapped it many moons ago (i have tried contacting him but no luck)

  14. #14
    Confused's Avatar

    Offline
     
    Name
    Garry
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Last Online
    Today
    Membership ID
    714
    Posts
    3,537
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Location
    Notts
    Car
    Legnum VR-4
    My Garage
    Visit
     
    The stock ECU only ever uses the narrowband signal.

  15. #15
    MYKEY's Avatar

    Offline
     
    Name
    Michael
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Last Online
    Today
    Posts
    486
    Country
    United Kingdom
    Location
    Essex
    Car
    Type V Saloon
     
    Perfect...cheers Garry

  16. #16
    kc427's Avatar

    Offline
     
    Name
    Kenneth
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Last Online
    22-03-2024
    Posts
    217
    Country
    Hong Kong
     
    I personally use the PLX O2 gauge for more than 10 years and still working fine. I am not saying it is good, but from what I search from the internet, the Innovate is not as good as expected. So, maybe you try to install other brand, like AEM, and monitor the O2 value. In case it's still lean, there must be some problem.

    BTW, I also had lean issue sometime ago, and I found some of the symptoms like this:

    - At idle, it is running about 16-19 when engine is hot
    - driving the car normally, eg, cruising, it is around 14.x-15.x, and very normal
    - no issue on hard accelerating, ie, no boost leaking
    - drive the car and to nearly stop, eg, just brake and stop the car before traffic lights, gear in neutral, then the AFR is also around 14.x to 15.x as normal, however, keeping around 14.x-15.x for around 20-30 second, and after that, it starts becoming lean again, until around 17-19 AFR.

    This lean issue happened for many years like you, and checked no boost leak, no air leak at all. Also changed those fuel/air related parts, eg, fuel pump, fuel filter, fuel pressure regulator, PVC value, MAF, vacuum hoses, etc, and still had the issue. Anyway, finally, I solved it by replacing the injectors seals and O-Rings, you can check my old post "here" Also, another guy also had similar issue, but he had fault coolant temp sender, check this post "here"

    Hope this help.

  17. #17
    Davezj's Avatar

    Offline
     
    Name
    Dave
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Last Online
    09-01-2024
    Membership ID
    255
    Posts
    16,245
    Country
    England
    Location
    Manchester
    Car
    VR-4
    My Garage
    Visit
     
    i can provide a set of injector seals if you need them.
    £18 for a full set delivered to UK postcode.

    Bye for Now!

Similar Threads

  1. running/idling lean and lumphy idle
    By Mr.Salas in forum General / Questions
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 21-12-2014, 11:43 PM
  2. Car is running lean on light throttle - any ideas?
    By TAR in forum Turbos, Exhaust & Induction
    Replies: 101
    Last Post: 11-11-2013, 10:42 PM
  3. Any ideas why my Evo VI is running a bit lean ...?
    By White Lightning in forum General Chat
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 26-09-2010, 11:26 AM
  4. Cat bypass - running lean?
    By CJay in forum Engine
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-04-2008, 08:35 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •