Originally Posted by WODJNO
Tell us.... Pretty please!
He is not talking an ultimate, he is talking full standalone!
it is an interesting debate.
the way i see it, a piggy back system is fine if thats as far as you are going to go with your car. because you are basing your tuning capabilities on part of your car with a fixed limit - IE your ECU. So its good if you want a cheaper option and aren't looking for complete control.
the full blown programable ECU will be more expensive outlay to start with but once its installed and tuned, your only looking at a minimum charge on a dyno for an hour each time you want to push your car to the next level.
Once again, before everybody jumps to MAP...
Read this first, may be you will find this route less expensive and as much capable of a good tune as MAF-->MAP translators:
what is the limitation of the stock MAS?
PS: 3000GT uses MAS/MAF similar to what we have... and btw Mellon does all his tuning with cheap, old, reliable e-manage Blue (if you stay with your MAS/MAF ... that thing will do fine).
The main advantage of the MAP ECU as I understand is its ability to fill out cels in output map(Hz at RPM&Psi) automatically... I think this could be taken of by a simple enough script (have no idea why e-manage guys didn't implement this feature into EMU), but it is not too much trouble as it is and can be done in couple of hours by hand.
Yet there are some advantages for EMU also... with one big disadvantages that some of them are not working yet
- Fuel cut removal
- Speed cut removal
- RPM limit removal (yet only fuel based)
- Ability to adjust fuel via Airflow map (MAF)
- Ability to switch over to simulated output (MAP) it will work of Greddy pressure sensor instead of you MAF input... or any other factory pressure sensor supported by e-manageU.
- Injectors scaling (Old flow and lag time vs new flow and lag time)
- Ability to directly control injectors to add or remove fuel
- Each injector can be adjusted individually
- Supporting maps for Acceleration enrichment, Anti-Stall map, Idle adjustment, Speed fuel corrections, Coolant and Intake temp. based fuel corrections...
- Ignition timing adjustment map
- Ignition acceleration map
- Individual cylinder Ignition adjustment map
- Two fuel&ignition maps can be switched directly on the e-manage box
- Auxiliary output
- Analog output
- Sub injectors channels. You can control NOS, water&alchy injections and so on.
- Built in "Launch Control" and "Flat Shift" for manuals and "A/T shift" ignition compensation for autos.
- Different WB devices can be logged and can even take control via A/F adjustment map to get you as close to your desired A/F ratios in the RPM vs load table.
- Built in logger that can record up to 8 parameters for up to 500 min. When connected to Laptop - you can record as many and as long as you want.
- Knock sensor logging (not as straight forward yet... "will be available in future software upgrades" - that’s what they say...)
- Real time timing logging (same as with knock sensor)
I am sure Greddy/Trust will work out most of the bugs and even add features to this unit with time (right now new versions of software are comming out every two weeks).
Last edited by valmes; 22-11-2005 at 05:04 AM.
Something to remember as well Dave is you have an AVC-R, HKS FCD, plus this, and I think you may have an emanage as well. Once you add the prices for all that together, it would probably be easier just to go for one box that replaces the lot.
Lets say you were starting from scratch again, would you simply go straight to a full ecu?
I will have 2 cars soon........................
In my opinion full aftermarket ECU for a daily driver is not an easy nor a cheap route...
Stock ECU is perfectly capable of dealing with most issues and getting most out of your car, provided you have some means of altering things... and what most people are looking for anyway is more performance at WOT and not messing around with cruise, idle or partial load...
Stand alone is great once you HAVE the experience and clearly define your goals... but it is just too much costs and problems for a daily driver with mild upgrades...
On that note Autronic SM2 would be stand alone of my choice... but for now I am fine with EMU. It has more stuff that I currently need anyway...
What he said!
Mitsubishi spent millions developing the software for our ecu, and I dont care what anyone says you can not get a standalone ECU programmed to give the level of driveability and reliability over the entire working range of the engine in a couple of hours on a dyno. Sure you can get it to run and produce the numbers at WOT, you can even get it to run as a day to day car. BUT to do this you are looking at a lot of dyno time followed by a lot of road tuning, fine if you can do it yourself, but if you are paying someone it is not going to be cheap! Take a look at the features of the ultimate - just to visit every cell in every avaialble map would take you a good number of hours, let alone map them properly........but with the piggybacks you can alter as and when you feel like it. With full standalone you have many hours work before the bugger will even run! At the end of the day, none of us are pushing the factory ecu to the limits, nor do we know what those limits are. I am quite confident that even with an emanage blue you could push beyond 500BHP far in excess of what the output shaft can handle
My emanage blue is only mapped for 95% and 100% throttle at the moment and the difference is huge. With my modifications I found about 70 BHP that went missing at the top end. I am sure that with some more fiddling and mid range tweaking I can improve response and maybe get a few more mpg....but I dont really need to. How many time do you boot it at 80% throttle? Not many, so the factory settings are adequate even if not ideal.
At the end of the day there is a certain Kudos about having full standalone - but it is reserved really for the more 'mental' enthusiasts with more money than they know what to do with!
Why spend x on a full standalone and tuning when you can spend a fraction and get results! It all comes down to cost in the end, If you can get xyzBHP using a $400 piggyback or get xyzBHP spending $2500 on a standalone and full tune - where is your money?
The piggyback systems offer a huge amount of flexibility for not much money, and as valmes said have far more features in them than even the most advanced members in the club can comprehend. BUT results can be acheived quickly and easily. How long did it take the 'pros' to tun You Sees car?? and at what cost?
In summary, piggybacks may not be ideal - but they more than serve the purpose of 99.9% of owners out there!
its a good argument - but its flawed in a number of key places.
firstly - there are only a handfull of people i know who would be able to install and tune/fiddle with the likes of an emanage or map ecu or AVCR even "by themselves" and you are one of them. so buying one of these things "cheap" is still going require dyno time for most people to get them working
secondly for people who don't know what they are doing or have a go anyway and make a mistake, like valmes did by accidentally dialing in 28 pounds, you are going to blow up your engine - which will cost a lot more to repair than getting a pro to set it up intially in the first place.
and finally - getting a replacement ECU to run the car as a daily driver is far from impossible. in fact - cars like teh vr4 with shocking over fueling from factory would benefit. I have driven a few cars now with replacement ECU's including an evo 3 with an autronic ecu and it felt great.
now i am not completely disagreeing with you, if you are comfortable with your hertz and voltages and wiring something like this up, and if you have access to a decent wide band sensor, some logging and a rolling road/test track - go for it. but most dont - and its not necessarily a case of getting what you pay for, but it almost sums it up.
Well with Uc's car once he took it to a real professional who knew what to do, it only took a week or so. I think a lot of it comes down to who is actually tuning it, and if they have any experiance with the car they are installing it to, as well as the ecu.
Now that Uc has had his car properly tuned, it is running great, I'm definately going to go full ecu, probably an Autronic SM2, it will let me upgrade basically as far as I want in the future, whether I go with mivec, td04's, or I can take the autronic out and put it into a completely differant car, it isn't a waste of money.
There are about 3 or 4 people around Auckland who are fairly experianced with Autronics, including Ralliart, Ohlsens Development, the people Uc took his car to, as well as the importers of Autronic, Edgell Automotive. I'm going to talk to all of them and see what they all say.
Fiddling with the AVCR and Emanage is not rocket science, sure it takes a bit of understanding but at the end of the day I am confident that MANY members that I have met in the UK could do their own tuning (SGHOM excluded
Getting someone else to tune your car is an option - but where is the fun in that?!
So how much was the autronic conversion including set up?
Just to clear things up... Engine wasn't blown! In fact everything held up fine... no piston damage - nothing due to excess boost.
The person in charge of making sure everything is fine with the engine, didn't clean the oil pan (after the accident), so dirt and parts of damaged head cover were blocking oil lines and making sure nothing gets through oil filter. I didn’t feel like checking after a person... since those things seems to be obvious and logical... Well, that was my mistake!
That was the reason... engine had starved for oil for over 400km... Sad that it was caused by such a stupid mistake... I can only say one thing here - if you want it done right - do it yourself!
That happens frequently, when tuning, you can get spikes... or bad A/F ratios... engine starts knocking - you get to the bad spots and correct them. That what PROs do too... the only difference is they have experience to rely on and can predict some of the "bad spots" and go about tuning in a safer way than newbie’s.
I really can't relate it to "stand alones vs. piggyback" discussion... What was the point you were making?
With a piggy back you have less chances of going wrong since you can always roll back to factory settings... with stand alone - you can not.
With piggybacks you get a piggyback as an adjustment tool and thousands of hours invested into development of stock ECU.
What are the benefits you are getting out of "stand alone system"? I mean for our non-extreme cases (seems like most of VR-4 are around 300-350 mark... with very few nitro monsters
With stand alones you have to be comfortable with hertz and voltages and wiring something up... if you don't I would question the very idea of going stand alone. As Dave said with piggybacks you have choices of either making a small adjustments at a time and learning from what you are doing or going to pros who can make it for you... or even not touching anything and staying stock.
I don't know if you have similar saying, but in Russian we say something like: "Why would you kill a bird(small one...
Last edited by valmes; 22-11-2005 at 11:51 AM.
I would have to agree with the piggy back route for those interested and LEARNING about tuning and the dependance of parameters which change how the car behaves..
I have had very limited experience or exposure to tuning so the idea is, as SGHOM has been stating recently, is to buy a cheap car to *play* with it. As I would like to learn about tuning, it stands to reason, for me, that a piggy back route such as e-manage would provide the perfect platform; Only changing certain and/or minimal aspects in small steps and having the ability to revert back to stock settings (if the egnine has not been savaged). The e-manage (BLUE/ULTIMATE) with ancillaries should provide the ability to adjust / monitor boost, fuelling, induction temps/pressure, timings and even operate Nitrous etc) without excessive outlay...
ah well - i will have to agree to disagree with most of you, as fleetwood mac would say - you can go your own way.
How about we just wait and see how it goes and then form an un-biased opinion? Then we actually gain some knowledge and benefit.
instead of always saying "Why do you want to do THAT?" why cant we just say "Cool, good luck and lets see how it goes?"
The reason I am interested in a MAP ECU is because I want to be able to remove it and gain full standard operation within an hour. Why? Because I have 2 years of mechanical insurance left but want to be able to tune my fuel mixtures.
The map ECU is around the same price as a SAFC from what I have seen, with the added benefit of being able to remove the MAF.
Why remove the MAF? because its a restriction. restriction = less efficient. but its not just that, its also restrictive because you have join your 2 intakes and then run the wires back from the MAF. you also need all your piping to be reasonably well sealed. blow off a hose and you stop. that wont happen with map, you just have to be careful and realise your wastegates will never open if you load the engine up too much.
Goodbye VTA dump valve problems.
Anyway... cheers Dave
will be getting one myself... maybe we can compare notes
Do you have an ETA on yours?
about a week! I will run it with the emanage, as it will learn all the setting I have programmed in to the emanage.....then I can remove the emanage and see how it behaves, then I can remove the MAF and all its plumbing and tweak it here and there!Anyway... cheers Dave
will be getting one myself... maybe we can compare notes
Do you have an ETA on yours?
Notes will be made freely avaialble.......well to members of course!
yeap. i agree with you kenneth - we were just having a conversation on the pros and cons is all. i know a little bit about standalone stuff and dave brings his experience with piggy back stuff into the thread so anybody reading this who is about to make the same decisions dave and I have will be able to form their own opininons
at the moment each of us is strongly advocating their own choices... which makes sense really or we probably would have chosen something else!
and i don't have a problem with posting up the results and any supporting info/tuning specs once i have my stuff done. My thread on the update on my car is still being updated on a daily basis and it will stay that way till the car is finished.
Slightly off topic, but it's great the way people are putting their opinions across without gettting all
I am still deciding my strategy, so this all makes great reading - especially because there's advocates of both sides.
I'm waiting in anticipation for Kieran to start a group hug threadSlightly off topic, but it's great the way people are putting their opinions across without gettting all
I am still deciding my strategy, so this all makes great reading - especially because there's advocates of both sides.
I'm waiting in anticipation for Kieran to start a group hug thread
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