Help! Total brake failure!

[HowieP]

Firstly, a big hi to all in the club, just discovered it this evening while searching for information. My Legnum suffered total brake failure about 18 months ago and despite many valiant (non dealer) attempts my trade friends have been unable to rectify the fault beyond fitting a new servo. The car now has the ABS working permanently if the fuse is fitted, if not it brakes normally but of course, will not pass an MOT test. I have an urgent need to use the car again so I would be most grateful for any help with a solution, who can/where/things to try, anything will be a move back to a decent drive. Many thanks in advance.

[Kieran]

Sounds like one of the wheel sensors is playing up, or the ABS control unit is knackered....

Actually, I wonder, thinking about it - is yours affected by the ABS/ASC recall? It normally causes total brake loss (Nitrogen leaks into the brake lines) but you never know....

Go here:

http://recall.mitsubishi-motors.co.j...ecallstatus.do

It's all in Japanese but you can babelfish it - Put in your chassis number and click the button - See if that gives any clues.

[Physician]

My exact thoughts Kieran - before I read your reply.

Almost certain to be the recall fault.

[HowieP]

Thanks for your suggestions, not a computer expert so having trouble "Babelfishing" but seems my car has missed 4 recalls if I'm correctly interpreting the dates which show up on the co.jp site. Now to find out what needs to be done...! Can't grasp the Nitrogen ingress though, where from? Any suggestions as to specialists who can fix the problems? Thanks again for responding. Howard.

[Physician]

Hi again Howie,

Here is a translation of the recall data:

Reason for Recall
Vehicle behavior control operation of brakes (active stability control system: ASC) Putting, when you take in ASC hydraulic powerpack and because there are some where durability of the diaphragm inside the gas charging type accumulator which is attached is insufficient, you continue use in that way state, there are times when the enclosure gas inside the accumulator mixes in the brake fluid, at the time of brake pedal operation when the feeling where control force is not transmitted does, it is worst, there is a possibility damping force decreasing.

Corrective Action
All vehicle, the constitution system which includes the ASC hydraulic powerpack which uses the particular accumulator is replaced the measure item (the system which does not use the gas charging type accumulator) with.

Affected Chassis (numbers)
Galant
EC5A-0000015 - EC5A-0100910 (2,355)

Legnum
EC5W-0000024 - EC5W-0101743 (8,934)
EC5W-5100101 - EC5W-5103031 (1,087)

Some of us have had the recall done as a preventative measure. All the parts needed to do mine (if it fails) are waiting at my local Mitsy distributor for fitting. These were ordered from Japan as a kit.

The Mitsy worksheet states that this is a 13 hour job ....... so it's a biggie. They change a considerable portion of the total braking system including piping.

[ThEbIrDmAn13]

if it's a recall the dealer should do it for free... in any case take it to the dealer and they will fix any recalls for free...

[Physician]

Here's a couple of the data sheets that came with all the parts Howie ....... as birdman saya - it's a free job once Mitsy confirm your car is on the list. I would suggest you simply tell them you want the recall doing and don't mention your problems if possible or they may start claiming you have to pay part of cost etc etc etc.

[Wodjno]

Hmmm ! This is interesting... I have a prob with my bakes at the moment and i am in the process of fitting a new master cylinder (cheers Mo) as it looked like this could be the problem..
This is what happened.. Out razzing the car of a noght time, No brake problems. Get into the car in the morning and put my foot on the bake and down to the floor it go's. If you pump it you can get some pressure for braking, but the pressure soon go's. Also if you hit the pedal fast you get some brake pressure but it ain't great.
So reading this thing about the Nitrogeon leak makes more sense to what happened to my brakes than a master cylinder failure. I shall give Mitsy a call today and see what they say..

PS.. When a car has been in for a recall, they always mark the car in some way to show that it has already been done.. Anyone know what the marking is for this recall.

[Kieran]

No need to look for a paint mark Glenn.... The ABS unit is swapped with a completley different one that doesn't have the nitrogen 'globes' on it. Mine's had it done (before it was exported from Japan) and the ABS unit now has a flat top with several brake pipes coming out of the top of it.

[Physician]

Glenn,

Open the brake fluid reservoir and shine a torch from the side. If it is a faulty diaphragm you should see millions of miniscule bubbles in the fluid.

Rich

[Wodjno]

Thank ypu for your replys Kieren and Richard.
Kieren, is there any chance of a Piccy of your unit ?
Richard, great tip that

At work at the Mo and will be dark when i get home, but will have a looky then..

Cheers

Glenn

[Physician]

These pictures/scans may help Glenn ....... otherwise Kieran may have a photo.

http://homepage.mac.com/rgdavies2000...res/img203.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/rgdavies2000...res/img204.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/rgdavies2000...res/img205.jpg


EDIT: Oops! sorry Glenn, gotta go out and haven't time to reduce them in size - they're huge!

[Wodjno]

These pictures/scans may help Glenn ....... otherwise Kieran may have a photo.



EDIT: Oops! sorry Glenn, gotta go out and haven't time to reduce them in size - they're huge!

Great work Richard, they should do just fine.. All though a little on the LARGE side

[HowieP]

Many thanks again to all esp Physician. My chassis no. is bang in the middle of the problem cars. Just thankful my system failed yards from home at less than 30mph. My symptoms were a rock hard pedal, no movement at all but for the ABS pumping and absolutely sod-all retardation. Have contacted local dealer who has taken a serious line and is trying to confirm things before carrying out work. Will definitely be joining-up to the full club. Cheers HP.

[Quad Al]

HowieP,
Did you get your brakes sorted? Looks like I might have the same problem or very similar. the age of my motor though, it's an '01 estate auto with only 40thou' on the clock. My Vin no. doesn't fall in the recall no.s though .
Symptoms are soft pedal but it will stop the car, Handbrake absolutley spot on, Brake fluid level fine.
BUT after releasing brake pedal large bubbles one or two return up into the reservoir and sit under the plastic filter thingy. This is not good.
Physician can you shine any light on my issue? There are no tiny tiny bubbles in the fluid.
The problems started when the weather a couple of days ago dropped down to -5 and was around 0 degress for 24 hours.
I think that the seals in the master cylinder have perished/split. Does anybody agree with this? And dare I ask, Does anyone know the price of a new non mitsui' master cylinder?
Cheers,
Quadal.

[Physician]

BUT after releasing brake pedal large bubbles one or two return up into the reservoir and sit under the plastic filter thingy. This is not good.

I think that the seals in the master cylinder have perished/split. Does anybody agree with this?

I tend to agree that it's NOT the diaphragm problem but you obviously have a leak somewhere. I guess a large rip in the diaphragm could be causative but less likely.

Physician can you shine any light on my issue? There are no tiny tiny bubbles in the fluid.

As I said to Glenn .... shine a torch to shed light ............

[Quad Al]

I tend to agree that it's NOT the diaphragm problem but you obviously have a leak somewhere. I guess a large rip in the diaphragm could be causative but less likely.

As I said to Glenn .... shine a torch to shed light ............

Now it's stopped raining I've Had a poke and a prod, ( Pre-empted your advice Richard) and Spank my behind and call me Shirley!..... found the problem. The Downside is I've got to wait until Mitsui' re-open in the new year. Reading the workshop manual, "Cheers WODJ" There is a repair kit for the Brake Master Cylinder. I bet Mitsui' try and say there is'nt one .
Oh yeah the problem is a weeping master cylinder .
Under the unit on the servo(Booster!) the paint's slightly bubbled, but not wet. There must have been a very small leak. And me thinks the recent cold weather has finished off the already duff seals.
For a 5year old 40kcar, this is not a good sign.
As the old saying goes "they don't build them like they used to"
Anyone got a spare master cylinder lying around?...... "Mo"
Also carried out the in situ' tests for the servo/ Booster,and it passed with flying colours, thank f££kski.
Cheers, Rich and Glenn.

[dickytim]

it is actually quite common for the master cylinders to degrade, mine is going to need to be done when I do my brakes, it is not particularly expensive to have them rebuilt tho so no biggy. My clutch master cylinder cost just shy of $100, and the brake one is cheaper to do because I can do it myself.

[HowieP]

Quadal,
Not yet, dealer is having problems convincing the nescessary people that my car is subject to the recall with questions like"where is the accumulator?" This is despite my having provided requested photos of the said item showing the part number together with the master cylinder etc. "Inconclusive" I think was the verdict... Some members may already know of the webite www.dogandlemon.com, check it out if not as it is a translation of the entire Japanese transport department recall database, seems my car should have been called in a total of 6 times...interesting reading. If I'm starting to sound cynical and a bit p'd off I apologise but, after nearly two years without a car I am having to buy another one now the dealer process is stalling, and it ain't made in Japan!
Howard

[Kieran]

Howard - Mitsubishi UK can be stung into action by a polite but firm letter to their MD. Several members have done this and amazingly(!), something that 'could take weeks and weeks' is resolved in a fraction of that time. Play the 'what if it failed and I wrapped myself around a tree' card (with evidence to back up your claims that you are subject to the recall) and you'll get a swift response....