Wastegates

[You See]

I'd still like to know what UC has experienced

Power-wise, I'm sure there was an increase there somewhere.. ...Have found the turbos do spool up quicker and are more responsive...tho there could be due to many factors (Air filters, Intercooler or ECU)
If you were considering the HKS one, I would recommend you don't...and go for a smaller (and cheaper) options. That way you'll have $$$ for those turbos too!

[You See]

Ooops... posted at the same time...

Actually you were beaten by a minute!

What problems are you experiencing that Bradc mentioned?
Cos the wastegates open around 3,000rpm, it dumps everything out and our tiny turbos aren't able to spool quickly enough to hold max. boost and thus dropping back off to 10psi.

WHAT DOES IT SOUND LIKE??
Think of the noise a lion...purring then all of a sudden attacking! (hey, I just woke up and not feeling too descriptive!)

Would I have to remove the engine?
No you wouldn't, you would have to remove the turbos and the manifolds (obviously to take out the internal gate and make a wastegate extension/flange on the manifolds)

[bradc]

the best way to describe it in letters is WHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPP it is really really loud, and is absolutely great. We'll have to put together a sound file for you guys

[jakester]

Screamers are the bomb , I ran one on the Skyline for a week, then the police advised me to take it off if I were going to continue scaring cyclist so bad that they fell off thier bikes, literally

[Quail]

Ive still never heard a screamer in real life yet. Im missing out!

[AllBeItMine]

putting external wastegates on the existing turbos is overkill imo.

a 38mm wastegate is more than twice the size of the ones fitted to the td03's and 38 is the smallest i have heard about.

the internal wastegates on the turbos work fine and are not the bottle neck as the turbos on the car are incapable of generating enough power to generate enough exhaust gas to warrant larger wastegates.

this is proven by You See, whos car has twin externals fitted and the turbos still do not hold boost through to the red line, running out of puff even after some expert tuning.

there are some pro's to fitting externals however. firstly if you have a fancy electronic boost controller, it will be able to open AND force close the wastegates using the secondary input on the wastegate diaphram.

secondly - if you have upgraded your turbos, the positioning of them on the car might force you to ditch the internal wastegates in favor of using externals allowing you to position them where you need them to be.

[bradc]

They are definately overkill, I definately agree with you there ABIM.

[michaeli]

Ok... Would I be able to change the turbos without taking the engine out?

Would it be advisable?

Oh and I also need to change the clutch, so if it's engine out for this, it will all be at the same time... bit nervous though...

[bradc]

I doubt you would be able to change the turbos without removing the engine. If you are looking at a twin setup, I would recommend TD04's or GT25R's. For a single, you're probably best to look at a GT30 or 35 hybrid of some description.

[michaeli]

Thanks for the advice...

I am going to go for the TD04H-16T-6CM2 like valmes.. Seem to flow well and match our engine and will fit with relative ease..


Now I was planning on fitting my emanage Ultimate before and getting it running, then take the engine out, replace the turbos and get the engine back in and tweak the ultimate again..

Does that sound more sensible than trying it all at once??

[Nick Mann]

Nick
Is the above wastegate info I posted worth making a sticky??

Probably better in the library? What do others think?

[AllBeItMine]

Thanks for the advice...

I am going to go for the TD04H-16T-6CM2 like valmes.. Seem to flow well and match our engine and will fit with relative ease..


Now I was planning on fitting my emanage Ultimate before and getting it running, then take the engine out, replace the turbos and get the engine back in and tweak the ultimate again..

Does that sound more sensible than trying it all at once??

from experience i offer you this advice (especially if you are doing it yourself)

DONT TAKE THE ENGINE OUT UNTIL YOU HAVE EVERYTHING YOU NEED. (not that you will be able to think of absolutely everything but having most stuff will save you sooo much time)

so, make a shopping list:
You will need the turbos (so far the cheapest part of my whole conversion)
flanges for the heads and turbos made up so you can start on your manifolds
flanges for the dumppipes on the turbos to remake the downpipes of your exhaust system
oil and water lines matched up to the turbos and feeds. at least buy the relivant connectors and lines and have them ready for when you need them
wastegates. (for my project the positioning of the turbos and rotation of them ruled out using the internal wastegates)
new piping: from the turbos to the intercooler and the turbos to the AFM will need to be replaced. if you are using a blue emanage you will be keeping the afm so may as well do a good job of it.
your new clutch.
your new set of injectors and your new fuel pump. (you see has 205kw at the wheels on the standard turbos and the fuel system is running at 85% so we can say that the car has about 230kws in it on a good day maxing out the fueling.) If you are upgrading your turbos you will obviously want more than this so you need injectors and fuel pump, possibly fuel pressure regulator as well.
get yourself all the gaskets you need
change the cambelt while the engine is out as well if it hasn't already been done. i did mine took about 30mins with the engine out. saves you paying 6hours labour to somebody else.
same story with the waterpump.
buy 2 large high flow slimline radiator fans.
budget to spend around 4-500 on steel for fabrication. the good stuff isn't cheap and the cheap stuff isn't good.
budget 750-1000 for each manifold if somebody else is doing it.
samco - lots of samco.
keep in the back of your mind that you will need to modify your oil filter asembly, possibly an engine mount depending on placement,

now. the reason i say buy everything you need first, or at least make a shopping list is for a couple of reasons.

firstly - people think about upgrading the turbos on their car, see a turbo for sale on ebay for $400 and think that will be the total cost (or at least the most expensive part of the upgrade) - its not.

secondly - the biggest killer in my project was waiting for parts, or finding new things i hadn't budgetted for. so take my advice. its meant well. i've been driving a ****ty blue mazda now for 4 months cause i didn't think ahead far enough.

the easiest part of my entire project was taking the engine out and puttting it back in again. it came out in about 4 hours and went back in in the same time. and that was just 1 guy doing it. so stop worrying about that.

final piece of advice - A creative visualisation is not a replacement for an acurate measurement. i stopped thinking to myself - YEAH, THAT WILL FIT pretty early on in the game.

[AllBeItMine]

Now I was planning on fitting my emanage Ultimate before and getting it running, then take the engine out, replace the turbos and get the engine back in and tweak the ultimate again..
Does that sound more sensible than trying it all at once??

yes. get the car running perfectly on standard turbos with the emanage then you can rule out any funny stuff as being the emanages fault when you put the turbos in.... it will also give you a good understanding of what all the wires and hoses do in the engine bay before you find yourself with them all in one hand and an empty engine bay in the other

[AllBeItMine]

oh - i also noticed (back to the wastegate thread) that the link above is to an HKS 50-60mm external...

these are used on 1000hp drag cars. they probably have a minimum spring pressure of 35psi. so could we please put that topic of fitting one of those to bed?

hehe - on a funnier side: putting two of those wastegates in your engine bay would do a good job of hiding your engine - they are fricken HUGE!

[bradc]

Great post ABIM. Uc's car when originally tuned had 198kw ATW, but the fuel pump was maxed out. Now he has a walbro 255lph and as you said, his injectors are at 85%. I had read somewhere though that you shouldn't run your injectors above 85% anyway, so I think a guideline that should be stated is that you should change your injectors once you get above 200kw ATW.

I would also suggest that anyone changing turbos should change to MAP and have an airfilter off each turbo, did you see Rhys's post about how small the stock pipes are, especially to the front turbo? They may be ok for TD03's, but for anything bigger you should do something like what Uc has done.

[richy rich]

Assuming your wastegates are functioning properly, not a lot. AFAIK the wastegates are shut to hold pressure. The pressure drop at high revs is a flow problem, not a wastegate problem. The simple fact is that to get high 300's (without the use of laughing gas!) we need to flow more air. Our little turbos can't do it. I'm sure better wastegate control would help, but at anywhere near the costs you have posted up there the better option would be turbos with more flow. In my humble opinion!

totaly agree nick

[michaeli]

Great info ABIM!! Thanks...

Some serious food for thought!!!



Just to clarify, I wasn't planning on putting those particular wastegates in my engine, I was merely using it as an example of an upgraded wastegate to start the thread off....