Another one bites the dust....

[pezza]

My last post sounded like I was p*$hed! LOL sorry

But yep draining the fluid was the first thing my mitsu pals did before shaking their heads slowly

The fluid had a weird plasticy burnt odour too..


Are you looking at your 3rd gear box now?

If you are looking for one...

[SGHOM]

Is it really over 3 years ago now ??

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthr...ight=gearboxes

[Kieran]

Is it really over 3 years ago now ??

http://www.clubvr4.com/forum/showthr...ight=gearboxes

Yeah.... But I still stand by my comments I made in that thread. I don't think there's anything that points to them being 'weak' boxes as such. Nick's car has eaten an output shaft and this gearbox was a 2nd hand unit from Mo anyway - it wasn't a brand new box. Other than that, all we've really seen is that they'll self-destruct if the fluid's not right or if they're heavily abused. Okay, they're perhaps not as durable as some but I still don't think they're the liability that people make out.

Look at your old VR-4 as an example.... 1 T/C seal and that was it, despite all the NOS-assisted abuse at Santa Pod!

[SGHOM]

all we've really seen is that they'll self-destruct if the fluid's not right or if they're heavily abused.

I put in netto's finest @ £1 a gallon for 2 years & it survived !! & I would never dream of abusing my gearbox.... never

[Nick Mann]

After a friend of Vickys making an M8 adapter, I have started measuring oil pressures.

Basically, everything is low. at 2500 rpm, I only have about 1 bar of pressure at the torque converter in any mode. I should be getting 6 bar once in gear. If revved to 4000 rpm, I can get 2.5 bar in drive or reverse, which is enough to start the wheels moving. I'm not sure it would be enough to actually move the car though, if the wheels were touching the floor!

Looking at page 58 of the Automatic Transmission Workshop Manual (yes, I know its the FWD box, but it is very similar!) it looks like I am looking at possibilities including:

Incorrect transmission control cable adjustment. (It's not this!)
Malfunction of the oil pump.
Clogged internal oil filter.
Clogged external oil filter.
Clogged oil cooler.
Malfunction of the regulator valve.
Malfunction of the relief valve.
Incorrect valve body installation.

So a few things to check! Next step is to drain the oil. I am relatively sure that the oil filters are okay, although I can't be sure about the internal one. The last Amsoil change (a couple of months ago) did not give rise to anything weird, so lets see what this sump full reveals!

The oil cooler can be checked relatively easily. The solenoid valves are (I think) getable at without removing the box, so they will be next. The internal filter and pump I think are a box out job.

I have got the day off work on thursday - guess what I'll be doing!

[Roberto]

By the sounds of that, its likely the box is not foobared then.

May be a bit of work to sort, but not as bad as originally suspected.
Which has to be good news.

Have a good productive day Thursday and hopefully it will shed some good light on the subject.

[pezza]

Good luck geeeza...


Sounds promising Nick.... really hope its a clogged or blocked something that can be cleared..

So the box was able to change in and out of gear ok when suspended off the floor?
Is it still slamming into gear?

Hope its one of the problems that you listed. Am sure you will have fun taking out the box in anycase and make sure you are not underneath it, like my foot nearly was when removing mine

Is there anywhere you can get a diagram or manual showing the internals of the VR4 box? Can only imagine what it looks like inside one o those boxes

[Nick Mann]

There are manuals for similar boxes, but I haven't seen a manual for the VR4 box. Some of the diagrams are a bit hard to understand!!

The car was changing up gears and driving all four wheels whilst suspended. It all appeared to be doing what it should, BUT it took over 3000rpm for anything to happen. Normally, a VR4 will drive the wheels at idle when sitting on axle stands, so something is very wrong. I'm not yet convinced that it isn't something major, but we'll see.

[pezza]

Thats sounding better than before then; sounds likely that it is linked your readings re low pressure. maybe sufficient pressures are attained when engine running at 3k to kick things into life?

I will have natter with mate to see if there is any literature that will be helpful.

Cheers

[pezza]

Lo Nick,

Hands covered in oil yet? ... thats engine/gearbox oil, BTW

Like I mentioned yesterday on the blower the mistu dudes are fearing the worst esp if its slamming into gear. Its either one of the two clutches for changing up or down..(depending on whether problem is seen changing up or down). Also the fact the car appeared to be binding when pushing in neutral isn't good...

Try getting the car into 4th on the stands and see if it goes back into safe mode in 3rd. Be weary of the dump valve tho, this time

They reckon the loss in pressure could be due to either TC, oil pump in the unit, the spindle or the main solenoid in the valve body, at the front of the box (which can be fairly easily removed). I haven't seen what they are on about as I have not taken the box apart myself but the 4 speed tip and 5 spd (also in the FTO I think?) should look basically the same, if you have the service manuals for those.

Before opening up the unit, the colour of the ATF should help decide how far you go with investigation.. so maybe check that first.

As for replacement parts, I understand that the internals can be a sod to get hold of, unlike the audi boxes mitsu dont seem to sell bits out of their boxes as readily...


Good luck geeza... let us know what you find..

[Nick Mann]

Well, Major thanks to Richy for help, parts and advice today. We have removed, stripped, rebuilt and refitted the box today. AND IT STILL DOESN'T FECKING WORK!

On stripping the box, we found that the oil pump was broken. I think it may still have worke, but not well. We peared around the rest but couldn't see much else wrong. The solenoids all gave a consistent resistance reading, the gears all looked in one piece, the easily removable bits were removed & checked. We robbed a pump off another broken gearbox, in MUCH better condition and re-assembled. I was optimistic that the broken pump, which tied in with the possible reasons in the manual, was the cause of my woes. Alas....

One other observation, which wasn't good, was the amount of small metal particles floating in the oil. Most of it wasn't magnetic, but a couple of small lumps were. I am prettty sure that the majority can be explained by the damage in the oil pump, but maybe not all of it. The other issue is that I have no idea how far the bits from the oil pump travelled before they came to rest in the sump. Who knows how many other components have been damaged on the way? That something else is broken is certain, most likely the pump is the cause or effect of the other. Unfortunately, I think it could be a waste of time to investigate much further. I will do a couple more checks tomorrow evening, and then I think it is time for the manual conversion.

Pezz - it looks like your guys were right. replacing the oil pump did give me more wheel action at lower revs, but this time I had a funny noise when in reverse. Best described as a clicking/crunching noise. Not good!

Once again, big thanks to Rich! Getting a box out, stripped, rebuilt and refitted in one day is quite an achievement, even with both of us there!

[Kieran]

Bloody hell - Box out and back in a day!! Cracking work you two!! I think I'd just be still staring at the car in despair!!

Hats off to you!!

[richy rich]

No prob Nick, just gutted the pump wasn't the only problem.

K as for box out and back in, In a day I have done that on my own before but it was a bloody long day.

Time for that Man conversion.

[richy rich]

Rep cough cough.

[bradc]

Sounds like you worked hard, pity that it wasn't just the pump.

What happens now when you put it into Drive? You mention that it starts to go now at lower revs, but nothing too specific.

[Lillywotsername]

Well I am going to thank Vicky for feeding you and Adam, Richy, especially as it was at such short notice.

Thanks Vicky.... You are a star xxxx

Hope you get it sorted soon though Nick.

[Nick Mann]

Thanks to you too, Lorr, for lending me your men!

[pezza]

buggggggga .... The oil pump sounded hopeful when you explained its condition yesterday.. altho hearing about the contamination in the fluid usually spells bad news.

When these boxes let go, its almost always with terminal results :-/

Good work to both of you tho to get the box out and back in so quickly... Roll on the UK's 2nd / 3rd manual conversion? I reckon tho, that you will be ultimately happier with manual box as you have been talking about a manual since you tried to flog me your old facelift VR at japfest in 04 (was it?)

Good luck geeeza....

[bradc]

TRE 3.73 final drive gearset

http://www.teamrip.com

You know you want to

[White Lightning]

Good work guys ... at least now you can now say that you did all you can to try and get the current box working again.

So, you won't feel so bad spending the money on the bits for the manual conversion