SAFCII and MAP2 with wideband

[sightless]

Ok - so I gather that the Map2 with wideband sensor is the way to go, but is it worth getting a SAFCII first. Cheaper $350 for a second hand item.
Map2 seems to be about $900 but needs extra installation and tuning.

Would the SAFCII benifit more with a wideband Lambda sensor? is it even compatible or needed

Where in NZ can you get a W/B from? my quick search failed

PS I did my rego for member a week ago at least - do I need to PM someone?

[Gly]

the sfac will still need to be tuned,

no point in getting a wideband unless you are confident in doing your own tuning, or are continously moding and wanting to tweek/ keep an eye on your afrs.

you could also get the cheaper map ecu (one/original)

oh and search for innovate LC1 or LM1 on trademe,
the LC1 is the cheaper base modle but is very good none the less. and will set you back around $300,
dont buy a second hand one. as you dont know how good the EGO is will be, and they are around $150 on there own

[sightless]

Thank you for the information Gly, you are help is always very useful and appreciated.

Would you suggest to get the SAFCII and become confident with tuning that - and then move onto the wideband? then progressively the MAP/2?
I am not going to do one thing and be settled with that - you know the bug, there is no cure!

[peter thomson]

You'll need the wideband first before you make any adjustments and evoscan or a knocklink to keep an eye on knock at the same time. I'm setting up my SAFC2 at the moment as well

[mpau009]

Thank you for the information Gly, you are help is always very useful and appreciated.

Would you suggest to get the SAFCII and become confident with tuning that - and then move onto the wideband? then progressively the MAP/2?
I am not going to do one thing and be settled with that - you know the bug, there is no cure!

You need to decide what you are looking to do. The MAP allows you to remove the factory Mass Airflow Sensor, which is a plus if you want to make custom piping, or other changes. It is a piggy back unit, in that it only intercepts/mimics the signals to the factory ecu, and alters them to give you the desired result, but it does this based on a MAP you program, matching RPM & Manifold Pressure, and some other aspects, like throttle position, where as i believe the SAFC is a % based way of changing fuel based on signals to the factory ecu.

If you think you will want to use the other features the MAP2 offers then definately go for that straight away, rather than buy several individual items. Remembering though you'll need at least a laptop to plug into the MAP if you want to tweak it yourself. Same story with the wideband, as said you only need it if you want to know your air/fuel ratios, a must if you are going to be altering the fueling using either item yourself. Ideally you want to have a sensor that can measure knock too, something that neither unit can do as yet (MAP2's next software update should cover this).

I guess what i am saying is if you are going to use the MAP2 to do the job of the SAFC, then you might as well go with the cheaper option, if not, and you think the MAP2 is the best mix of usability etc, versus a stand alone ECU and tune, then go that route..

Also, another thing to remember is that the MAP2 is a pretty basic sort of unit, it can do all the things it claims, but for example it doesnt come with a boost solenoid (around $120-150) which you need if you want to use it as a boost controller etc, same with launch control and the other features, none of the hardware comes with the unit, so dont think $800-900 is going to be your final cost to get it to do all the things you want.

[Gly]

as mentioned you will need the wideband first befor you do any self tuning,
to make sure you keep you afrs in safe limits,

how ever if you decide to just get the MapEcu/SAFC and dont want to do any self tuning,
thats $300 you can spend on having a pro tune it on a dyno.

you wont need it if you do it that way. but if you go and change something after the tune you will need to have it checked on the dyno again and possible have it tuned again,

[bradc]

The MAP2 is a much more capable unit than the SAFC, once you factor in the cost of tuning both, I don't see much point in going with the SAFC unless you're keeping the car basically stock.

[Kenneth]

PS I did my rego for member a week ago at least - do I need to PM someone?

You should have recieved a PM from Joanne regarding payment for membership, easiest way is to use the internet banking details provided.

If you have done this (ie: paid using internet banking) let me know and I will chase up Richard to verify the payment. (I have checked paypal and we haven't received payment there)

[sightless]

So the more benificial direction I see this going would be
Map2 $900
Wideband LC-1 Sensor $350
Knocklink - $150
Boost solinoid $150

Rough prices

The wideband would be first step, as you have pointed out. This can be put in place of the stock sensor, is there any point? or wait and get the MAP 2 and LC1 at the same time?

Some sites I found lead me to believe that there already is an update for MAP2 for knock detection - so all that is needed is a knock sensor, which the 8gen vr4 has if i remember right.

A bit more on the boost solinoid - all I am familia with is the bleed valave and you typical EBC. Can soemone point me to a recomended Boost Solinoid that is been used with the Map2?

[Kenneth]

I would get an LC-1 first.

I did this with my previous VR-4 and found (quite happily) that my AFRs (using standard airbox with ralliart panel filter) were just about spot on, even with the mods I had done.
600x300x76 intercooler , exhaust (2.5" down pipes with fujitsubo cat-back and decat pipe) and MAF adjustment screw wound down level with the bottom of the MAF.

Good for 245HP at the wheels, ~320 at the flywheel (based on standard calculations for drivetrain loss.)

Oh, and the wideband also lets you modify the output scale so that you run 15.2:1 AFR which gives you a slight reduction in closed loop fuel use and slight increase in efficiency (higher EGTs)

[sightless]

MAF adjustment screw wound down level with the bottom of the MAF.

What does the MAF adjustment screw do
Added to my list of research
edit - i wont worry about the MAF screw - as Brad said in an old thread - just get rid of the maf!

Oh, and the wideband also lets you modify the output scale so that you run 15.2:1 AFR which gives you a slight reduction in closed loop fuel use and slight increase in efficiency (higher EGTs)

This would only be once I have the MAP though to controll the adjustment?

[Kenneth]

no, you can set the wideband output to tell the ECU to run at 15.2:1 AFR. Don't need anything else.

MAF adjustment is just turning the MAF over, removing the silicone and winding out the adjustment screw. Requires 10 minutes of your time.
Pays to be able to make sure your AFRs are correct though.

[sightless]

This is great learning a bit and getting my head around it all bit by bit.
I thought the LC-1 wideband was just a sensor, not an adjustment - or have i got my wires crossed?

[Kenneth]

Nope, the LC-1 is just the controller for the wideband sensor, though usually when you buy the LC-1 you will get a sensor with it.


Why are you wanting all this stuff anyway? You would want to be doing some fairly serious modification to need all that.

[sightless]

Nope, the LC-1 is just the controller for the wideband sensor, though usually when you buy the LC-1 you will get a sensor with it.


Why are you wanting all this stuff anyway? You would want to be doing some fairly serious modification to need all that.

Not serious modifications - My goal is to have the car run as efficiently as possible for the best performance result.
So oil cooler, atf cooler, upgraded intercooler, exhaust, MAP2 and LC1 wideband for tuning.
Reading up on the MAP2 - there are two maps changable by a switch.
I'm thinking one map tuned to something like 8-10psi and the other to 14psi.

Its not for fuel saving, but rather to not waste fuel by going to rich - and of course keeping the car from leaning out - while getting the most out of the gerbils running inside
Been a prefacelift auto compleatly stock im on about 6psi

I may be a fool but I'm learning this - but I'm the sort of person that needs to look at a possibility and pull it right down to bits and get my head around each aspect and what it does.

[Kenneth]

For those goals I don't see that you would need a MAP2.

If you still want one, get it last as you will need to re-tune it whenever you make modifications to the engine breathing efficiency. (ie: intake / exhaust mods)

Best value for money in my opnion is full exhaust (make sure you do the down pipes), intercooler and boost controller.
Having an Auto means that an ATF cooler is a pretty damn good idea, though an engine oil cooler isn't so critical so long as you ensure you use good oil. (Most on this forum, including me, recommend Amsoil)

[Kenneth]

where abouts in NZ are you? You may find it beneficial to take a ride in some members cars in various states of tune to give you some practical idea of what you want.

If on the north shore I am more than willing to take you for a ride in our VR-4s (Joanne's Legnum and my Galant)

[bradc]

Then there is Ryan's car which is a prefacelift auto like your car but with an exhaust system and boost control, that might be the best car to go for a ride in.

[Kenneth]

Then there is Ryan's car which is a prefacelift auto like your car but with an exhaust system and boost control, that might be the best car to go for a ride in.

Thats true actually, probably the best comparison. After that though there are cars with other states of tune.

Could organise a meet. Our Legnum is MBC only, then go Ryns car with Boost and Exhaust, then on from that

Lol, and we can also say how much the mods cost

[sightless]

Im in Hawkes bay - but should be comming to the planed meet in taupo
I like the idea of been able to "fine tune" and am ok with needed to retune if more things are done.
The Map2 wouldnt be done untill I have the intake and exhaust done. leaving the fatory box at this stage. so MAP2 = final step with removal of the MAF

So to change things around a bit.
Wideband/LC-1 - this would be the first thing I would get in regards to engine/fuel managment - sorted, I can tick that one off in my mind.
Exhaust
Intercooler/pipes, synapse bov
Map2
Turbo intake pipes -MAF


Still confused over the boost solinoid thing.
An EBC uses a boost solinoid? would i then be ok to get an EBC and use the solinoid with the MAP2 further in the future?

Can someone explain the Knocklink a little more - would it be advised to get this as one of the first items? or will the MAP2 suffice at the end?


I'm going to forget the SAFCII - there is more potential and controll from the MAP2 and not really that much price difference.

(i'v resused and reused the search and this post comes up a lot now - think this thread will be very good for future searches)