I've just had a BRILLIANT idea

[Munta]

sometimes people need assistance due to unforeseen circumstances such as redundancy, accidents, career changes, disability or whatever. Such systems are GOOD for society.

Its people who are bleeding society for their own selfish, unethical benefit who are a problem, and such people should be made accountable and be required to contribute in repayment for society's generosity.

i guess you didnt read the unforeseen circumstances on the post above. mite want to read first before bringing in the baby topic... and in NZ the problem is real bad.

[dickytim]

The problem I have with Brad's original idea is that it would have the state make value judgements on people based on what seem like fairly arbitrary criteria. And just because someone loses their job they lose some of their rights and freedoms as a citizen - this is just unfair.

People should be free to spend their dole on whatever they want, just like you're free to spend your pay cheque on whatever. I think it is very bad when society starts to make value judgements on who is deserving of benefits and who is not. Sure we can judge smoking, drinking and illicit drugs as being bad, but what next, homosexuals, people of different races etc. could get judged as unworthy too. The next thing you know, you're down the same road as Nazi Germany.

You are clearly a Labour supporter...

My question to you is what right do these people have to free money ?

Why are our taxes so high just to cater for these people, yes there needs to be a welfare system, but not a cash based one.

I like the idea of food stamps and the government paying your rent directly to your land lord.

How is it fair for someone who is not working to go out and drink when I can't even afford that when I work 50+ hours a week ?

I am not saying discrimiate based on race, sexuality, besides being black/white/red/yellow and homosexual/hetrosexual/bisexual/trisexual doesn't mean cost anything so it is not even relevent to this arguement.

You are working on the premise that this money belongs to the recipient.

[dickytim]

What if that bone idle slob has a baby?

If you can't afford to raise a child don't breed, it shouldn't be an excuse for extra income from the government.

[miller]

What if that bone idle slob has a baby?

then the baby is screwed before its even born as in fairness who in their right mind would shag a bone idle slob, maybe a male version of the bone idle slob or perhaps her brother. Either way im not expecting einstineying things from that kid! Another drain on the system

[Ryan]

My wife works for GE Finance (as I used to once). You wouldn't be surprised to see how many people list "DPB" or "WINZ" as their EMPLOYER? I thought to be employed you actually had to provide a service, have some sort of contract in place etc... never mind.

What does amaze me is that these people tend to get approved for purchasing such things as Xbox's and big screen TVs. These are all on interest bearing hire-purchase contracts I might add at ~25%pa!

There should at least be some sort of law against purchasing non-essential items. If it's a heater or a stove or a fridge or something useful that could be considered necessary then yes maybe they could have it. I still don't like the idea of what message that sends out - certainly not what I would label as "responsible lending".

Using tax payers money to extract profit from people who can't afford to be in debt in the first place.

[Robotnik123]

My question to you is what right do these people have to free money ?


You are working on the premise that this money belongs to the recipient.

Well I think it does belong to the recipient, everyone pays taxes which are spent on things for the good of the whole nation. Sure some people don't pay their "fair share", but that's just life.

You don't get a benefit, but you'd certainly have had the benefit of other government services for which our taxes pay for, like subsidized education, health, etc. You also benefit from govt spending on roads, fire and police too. How would you like it if you weren't entitled to use some of these because some govt official determined you were too lazy, drank too much or whatever?

[bradc]

Jan - these people don't pay taxes though, thats the point! They don't contribute anything to society and don't deserve (or have the right) to spend money how they want.

Trev - as usual, I'm sure we would get on great in real life

[Robotnik123]

Jan - these people don't pay taxes though, thats the point! They don't contribute anything to society and don't deserve (or have the right) to spend money how they want.

Sure they do - GST and excise tax on their smokes and booze for a start!

[KiwiTT]

Let's not forget how good we have it here.

1) You get to spend about 2/3's of what you earn on whatever you want
2) The remaining 1/3 is managed by the government for the society we voted for every 3 years. Which attempt to provide the following with varying levels of success

• Security - Law and Order, Military, Corrections, etc.
• Education - Preschool -> University
• Health - Primary, Emergency, Acute and Accident cover
• Transport - Roads, Public Transport and even Airlines and Rail
• Social Welfare - Unemployment, Sickness, DPB (for non-paying fathers really) and Pensions

Now a lot of countries make you give up 1/2 or more to provide the very best of the above. We have struck a balance between affordability and freedom.

As to work-for-dole. I would much prefer they were upskilling, then doing basic round the area cleaning. Better long term effects.

BTW: I am probably voting ACT as I believe in more individual responsibility and choice. i.e. freedom (that millions of people died for)

[bradc]

That is indeed true Richard, but I didn't vote for labour last time, and I won't this time. I do hope that Rodney Hide gets the Epsom seat to get into parliment. I can't see them getting 5% unfortunately.

[KiwiTT]

That is indeed true Richard, but I didn't vote for labour last time, ....

No, but many more did and hence we have got what we have got. And after aligning with like minded parties they were able to govern.

This is why the party vote is so important. Don't just look at the candidates, look at the policies.

[djb160]

Yeah I went labour but then Im a student. I hope you guys realise you get taxed on your benefit just like everyone else. The really crap thing is how hard it is to get out of slave labour jobs once you've started a family. "They" almost seem to actively discourage further education an effort to provide a better lifestyle. I'm just lucky that my prtner o***** under the sickness benefit, coz if she didn't we'd be screwed while I'm studying.

[Ryan]

Jan - these people don't pay taxes though, thats the point!

That's not true. The dole / benefit whatever you call it, is tax deductable and so is, as someone else pointed out, everything they buy.

[Fully]

Let's not forget how good we have it here.

1) You get to spend about 2/3's of what you earn on whatever you want

Hell you are one of the lucky ones then.
In the real world were you have children then decide to split after 3 children, I have a living allowance of $13000 ($250 PER WEEK)then 27% of my gross earnings is payed in child support. Now we all know that the living allowance is far to low.

At the end of the week, my true tax is around 63.5% How does that make you feel?
Made up from
PAYE tax - 20% (problem = earn to much you pay secondry tax)
Childsupport 27%
GST 12.5%
Kiwisaver 4%

So thats about 1/3 of my income to pay the bills, rent, power, phone, food.
At the end of the day if you don't have a good job and carn't make ends meet, it is easier to go join the dole que.

[KiwiTT]

You WANTed children ... so deduct 27% from your calculation, so that leaves you with under 40% so my statement is still valid.

i.e. "You get to spend about 2/3's of what you earn on whatever you want" or wanted

[bradc]

I'm on Richard's side here. I can't afford kids, so don't have them

[Subaru ETA]

i thought it was because sheep couldnt have human children

but i know people whho COULD aford kids before cheese cost more then the average weekly wage

[bradc]

I expected a comment worse than that actually when I posted that up

[Fully]

Now you are putting words into my mouth! and are asuming!

[MunkyWrench]

If you can't afford to raise a child don't breed, it shouldn't be an excuse for extra income from the government.

+1.

( and only because I don't think I'm allowed to + 1million).

Common sense needs to do more prevailing.